RMT suspends strike action

[Solent&Wessex]

And one gets paid nearly twice as much as the other.

 

[notadriver]

And the driver can't guard the train.

The driver and the guard are a team. One isn't "better" than the other, they just do different things. It's like trying to compare a brain surgeon to a CV surgeon. Both do very complex operations, but in different areas.

TOC dependent, Drivers are trained to do the safety critical element of guards duties as well. South Eastern is one such TOC.

 

[Bon Accord]

For a start Psychometric tests are not meaningless

I might venture they are, as if you prepare well enough and have enough grey matter, then they're perfectly easy to pass and indeed fake. Furthermore, I might suggest that it's just another example of the Personnel dept (I refuse to use their BS modern name) creating a "due diligence" a**e-covering papertrail as opposed to serving any real purpose.
I might venture that in spite of the high salary, Driver selection has the high attrition rate it does simply the job is not attracting the right kind of people.
After all, how many schools will suggest to their above average students that Driving is a potentially lucrative and secure job? Not many!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

[Deleted content removed]

Captain Speaking has had the temerity to complain about the ATW Club 55 offer increasing from £15 to £18 on the thread that I set up on the Fares and Ticketing forum, as if £3 would amount to anything of consequence to someone who claims to earn the salary that he implies that he earns within his stated aircrew position of that industry.

ANorthern Guard, you have my wholehearted support to back the comments that you have made in response to his numerous incoinsidered and offensive postings that have appeared upon this particular thread.

 

[Minilad]

As a driver I really don't care what Captain Speaking says because I am the one doing the job so therefore I know why I feel the salary I receive is justified.
I must admit though what does get me down is when we have this Guard vs Driver debate.
I know, as I have been been both, that both jobs have certain demands. I know that the two need to be a team. I know that it does neither side any good to slag off the other side.
I also wonder sometimes the motivation of someone who "wants to be a driver" is it the money, or is it a genuine desire.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As a driver I really don't care what Captain Speaking says because I am the one doing the job so therefore I know why I feel the salary I receive is justified.
I must admit though what does get me down is when we have this Guard vs Driver debate.
I know, as I have been been both, that both jobs have certain demands. I know that the two need to be a team. I know that it does neither side any good to slag off the other side.
I also wonder sometimes the motivation of someone who "wants to be a driver" is it the money, or is it a genuine desire.

some of mygood friends are drivers that is one of the reasons even tho I can be jealous of some of the money that the job commands, I still support them wholeheartedly


TrainCREW

NOT

Driver & Guard
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Captain Speaking has had the temerity to complain about the ATW Club 55 offer increasing from £15 to £18 on the thread that I set up on the Fares and Ticketing forum, as if £3 would amount to anything of consequence to someone who claims to earn the salary that he implies that he earns within his stated aircrew position of that industry.

ANorthern Guard, you have my wholehearted support to back the comments that you have made in response to his numerous incoinsidered and offensive postings that have appeared upon this particular thread.

Thankyou Very Much Paul, That is much appreciated

May I also add that I have no interest applying for a drivers position, I very much enjoy my role as a very experienced guard who has the respect of my colleagues and the majority of my passengers, The money for drivers is very tempting but as someone who has seen more than their fair share of death on the railway as well as numerous other incidents I will always support the drivers, does not mean I want to be one though

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Do you think £100k for a pilot is justifiable CS?

 

[Minilad]

So if I came onto pprune giving it the big un about pilots not being worth as much as a bus driver (I assume you are actually a pilot flying commercial aircraft) do you think I would get slapped on the back. Or do you think I would have many people telling me I was wrong

 

[Whistler40145]

Well, in the cockpit you will have assistance, a train driver only has assistance if he doesn't know the route or requires a refresher on certain traction.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Actually, what kind of pilot are you CS? 747 long haul, or a little Cessna pootling round Biggin Hill?

 

[CosherB]

Do you think £100k for a pilot is justifiable CS?

I already answered that. Look back a few posts.

 

[CarterUSM]

You really all shouldn't rise to his questionable debating method, every time it's the same. He's like a wee bairn, though a bairn would probably make more sense.....

 

[Minilad]

I already answered that. Look back a few posts.

Can you also please answer my question please
Post 138

 

[CosherB]

So if I came onto pprune giving it the big un about pilots not being worth as much as a bus driver (I assume you are actually a pilot flying commercial aircraft) do you think I would get slapped on the back. Or do you think I would have many people telling me I was wrong

PPRuNe is far from perfect so you would probaly get a few 'what do you know' responses. However, I think you'd also get a lot of reasoned argument as to why pilots get paid more than bus drivers, far exceeding those ignorant ones.

If one has a robust case (pilots can easily justify why they should be paid more than bus drivers) why would one have to resort to closing ranks? It smacks of not being able to defend the argument. Being a persistant sort who is not easily deflected, that makes me probe further to elicit a reasoned response.

One or two on this forum do respond with well reasoned argument, but sadly most don't.

So you may ask why I bother coming on here when some on here clearly would rather I didn't. It's becuase I think rail is an ideal transport medium for UK, and I don't want to see it knocked back by the politicians because greedy unions push irresponsible pay claims. The railways are on dangerous ground right now; money is tight, people are losing jobs, and the public get pi55ed off when they see highly paid secure workers striking for yet more money. It wouldn't take much for the politicans to say 'stuff the railways, cut the subsidies, build more roads instead'.

I don't want that to happen.

 

[Minilad]

PPRuNe is far from perfect so you would probaly get a few 'what do you know' responses. However, I think you'd also get a lot of reasoned argument as to why pilots get paid more than bus drivers, far exceeding those ignorant ones.

If one has a robust case (pilots can easily justify why they should be paid more than bus drivers) why would one have to resort to closing ranks? It smacks of not being able to defend the argument. Being a persistant sort who is not easily deflected, that makes me probe further to elicit a reasoned response.

One or two on this forum do respond with well reasoned argument, but sadly most don't.

But it seems to me you really don't want to listen to reasoned argument as you have your view and nothing I could say is going to change it.

 

[CosherB]

But it seems to me you really don't want to listen to reasoned argument as you have your view and nothing I could say is going to change it.

Try me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not sure Captain Speaking will answer Post #138!

Assistance in the cockpit? Not sure what you mean. Flying an airliner is a two (or three on older aircraft) person job - it cannot physically be done by one person. That's not 'assistance', it's two or three people doing their jobs. Here's a 3-person cockpit.

http://www.kenmcbride.com/concorde/index.html

What did you mean by the question?

 

[Minilad]

OK here goes.
My training for the job. Including initial traction and route knowledge took a couple of weeks shy of 18 months. During this time I had to take and pass 7 written exams
I have to know, and am constantly reassessed on, a rule book that is as thick as a telephone directory.
I have to know the workings of a complex machine worth in excess of 5 million pounds.
I have to have intimate knowledge of around 700 route miles of railway.
I have to constantly keep up to date with any changes to said rules traction or routes
I am responsible for the safety and comfort of anything up to 600 people whenever I turn a wheel.
When I am at work I have to maintain 100% concentration for anything up to 3 hours at a stretch.
I have to work shifts which can start as early as 3am and finish as late as 2am every day of the week. Weekends and Bank Holidays included. These shifts can and often do last 10 hours. The average shift time is around 8.50.
While I am driving I could be faced with any number of potentially dangerous situations that I would be expected to deal with with calmness and professionalism.
I would also be expected to respond to any mechanical problems in the same manner. Often under considerable time pressure.
I am expected to be courteous and helpful to any passengers.
When things are running well and the weather is fine it is a job that is easy to become complacent about, which is the last thing I can ever be.
I won't even start with things like driving in fog or with poor railhead conditions. Or aving to nurse a sick set back home.
Maybe I should mention not knowing exactly what could be round the corner at 125mph. Such as concrete blocks, shopping trollies or piles of bricks on the tracks. Cars dodging level crossing barriers. 3 Cows on the line. A suicidal woman walking trackisde. Kids playing chicken. All of which I have had.

I love my job. And when things are going well, the sun is shining and my train is fit and well it is an absolute pleasure. But when things go wrong that is when I earn my corn.

As somebody once said. We are paid for what we know and what we could face as much as what we do

Hope this helps

 

[Legzr1]

Why rise to the bait?

This character is antagonistic at best,ignorant at worst and is helping no one at any point.

On one hand he says he wants railways to flourish.
On the other, he goes all out to pi55 off traincrew.

Every answer he gives is tinged with arrogance and goes off on a tangent - questions he has no answers to are simply ignored.

If I never read any more of his bile it will be a day too soon.


Come on CS,lose the attitude and try to be human and stick to topics you have at least a modicum of knowledge on - paydeals between traincrew and TOCS isn't your business.

Accept it and move on.

 

[CosherB]

Thank you XC Driver. I agree with every word, and thank you for taking the time to compose it.

I never doubted that train driving was a responsible and not always routine job that is unforgiving of mistakes. I was aware of everything in your post (except of course the stuff like the suicidal woman etc that you have personally had to handle), and I know there's a heck of a lot more to it that you left out (one could write reams and still not cover it all - same as any responsible job). It is well rewarded financially, and so it should be.

But isn't circa £40K easily enough for that when the average salary is not much more than half that? Especially as it's as secure as any job could be (unless there are wholesale rail cutbacks). And then for drivers to strike for more pay in the current climate where many folk are getting no raise for years, losing their jobs and houses, despite being good at what they do... that's surely unacceptable.

I had better explain that I have no personal axe to grind here. I am happily retired and fulfilled on a nice pension, so I can be a detached observer.

I have been a lifelong rail enthusiast. Among many other retirement activities I fire and drive steam locos on a heritage line (I do not and never have claimed this gives me any insight into the job of professional train driver on the railways - it is of course quite different). But as an enthusiast and someone who uses rail a lot to travel around UK and Europe I do not wish to see our rail system cut back. Politicians need little excuse to do that, and rail unions demanding well paid drivers in secure jobs get above inflation rises cannot be justified. And it plays into the hands of the politicians who who are looking to make cuts in public spending.

Again, thanks for the reply.

 

[jon0844]

Here's a 3-person cockpit.

http://www.kenmcbride.com/concorde/index.html

Bloody hell. Hidden amongst that lot is the autopilot button that turns all the other controls off!



(BTW, I am so gutted that a press trip I was invited on that took us on Concorde was cancelled on the day due to a mechanical problem and I never got another chance to fly on it - so sad).

 

[CosherB]

Bloody hell. Hidden amongst that lot is the autopilot button that turns all the other controls off!



(BTW, I am so gutted that a press trip I was invited on that took us on Concorde was cancelled on the day due to a mechanical problem and I never got another chance to fly on it - so sad).

jon, not sure what you mean by that (there is no such button), but it was just fabulous. I never flew the magnificent white bird myself, but I have been in that flight deck, strapped in with headset on, from take off to landing, including mach 2 at 60,000 feet on the edge of space. Something I will treasure for life.

 

[jon0844]

I thought the smiley made it pretty clear I was joking! It would be somewhat unlikely that one button turned everything else off (not least the fact that autopilot doesn't do that anyway!).