RMT statement discussion.

[A0]

The ROSCO's for a start.

And if they're making "big profits", it also means they are paying corporation tax - and corporation tax at 19% is much, much higher than any dividends that are being paid. If anyone knows of any company which is paying 19% dividends on their shares, could they drop me a PM, because my savings could do with a boost.

 

[Starmill]

They can still get around a table and discuss the situation.

Lots of employers have a policy of not negotiating on anything while industrial action is live. It's confrontational to refuse formal talks, yes, but it's not exactly something anyone can claim to be surprised about if they're already in breach of their contract of service.

 

[Falcon1200]

If a business is a rip-roaring success, making huge profits from customers delighted to pay the price charged for, and fully satisfied with, their product, then of course the staff should share in that success and be rewarded accordingly. Unfortunately that is not the case for the railway. Having said that, rail staff are entitled to ask for a pay rise, just like anyone else, but their demands have to be realistic. And the Unions should remember that even the threat of a strike, never mind actually going on strike, is enough to turn people away from the railway and onto other forms of transport. That is the last thing the rail industry needs, at any time, but even more so now.

 

[Starmill]

It sounds like the TOCs, for practical purposes, have been put in to administration by DfT and no longer control their own finances.

The fourteen operators who are managed by the DfT absolutely do not have much control over spending, yes. To the point where there are now units out of service for longer than necessary because they are waiting sign off for parts orders.

 

[Moonshot]

If a business is a rip-roaring success, making huge profits from customers delighted to pay the price charged for, and fully satisfied with, their product, then of course the staff should share in that success and be rewarded accordingly. Unfortunately that is not the case for the railway. Having said that, rail staff are entitled to ask for a pay rise, just like anyone else, but their demands have to be realistic. And the Unions should remember that even the threat of a strike, never mind actually going on strike, is enough to turn people away from the railway and onto other forms of transport. That is the last thing the rail industry needs, at any time, but even more so now.

It's the membership ballot which actually decides strike action. The reality is that the rest of this year is likely to be heavily blighted by trains not running because staff are involved in industrial action. It's already happening now. Passengers are simply going to have to accept that.

 

[43301]

It's the membership ballot which actually decides strike action. The reality is that the rest of this year is likely to be heavily blighted by trains not running because staff are involved in industrial action. It's already happening now. Passengers are simply going to have to accept that.

Many will probably accept that they need to get a car / use their car more, and the government will then claim that cuts in rail services / staff levels are necessary because the trains aren't being used enough.

If unions take a hardline approach now it will probably backfire - it's really not the time for it.

 

[muz379]

Lots of employers have a policy of not negotiating on anything while industrial action is live. It's confrontational to refuse formal talks, yes, but it's not exactly something anyone can claim to be surprised about if they're already in breach of their contract of service.

Its also usual practice for unions to suspend industrial action if meaningful talks are offered .

Many will probably accept that they need to get a car / use their car more, and the government will then claim that cuts in rail services / staff levels are necessary because the trains aren't being used enough.

If unions take a hardline approach now it will probably backfire - it's really not the time for it.

That is one forecast , not sure the basis for it though . Post covid the leisure market has recovered quite well even though there are reduced timetables and shortcomings on offerings on some days like sundays . Not sure that a period of industrual action would have the long term impact many on this forum predict especially if carefully targetted .

 

[Carlisle]

The fourteen operators who are managed by the DfT absolutely do not have much control over spending, yes. To the point where there are now units out of service for longer than necessary because they are waiting sign off for parts orders.

That type of cost control has essentially always happened on the railway, particularly during BR or other periods of financial hardship when the fleet was generally older so large repair budgets less justifiable.

 

[dk1]

Or sundays , if we want them in the working week we are being unrealistic , if we dont cover them when they are not we are being unncessarilly militant .

If only we on the railway where as interested in others working conditions & pay. Very strange that they have such an opinion on ours don’t you think?

 

[Starmill]

If only we on the railway where as interested in others working conditions & pay. Very strange that they have such an opinion on ours don’t you think?

Lots of the public have opinions on the pay levels and working conditions of public sector workers. I'm unsure why you think that the railway is particularly special?

Going the other way, the public also in the main view themselves as having a right to an opinion on salaries of footballers or those paid by their supermarket or energy companies, despite the fact that unlike railways these aren't operated in the public interest. Same goes for the levels of the minimum wage - people have loud opinions on that going up too much or not enough. Indeed neither the consumer nor ministers have any business influencing the pay levels of sports personalities or CEOs at large multinationals, and yet they commonly pass opinion on it. Unfortunately people have opinions. It's just the way it is. If you don't that's fab for you.

The public are not entitled to be party to discussion at an individual level about who is responsible for precisely what or who gets paid precisely how much, but they are entitled to understand in broad terms on what public money gets spent. I'd have thought that this is a principle which nobody could disagree with?

 

[Wolfie]

It's the membership ballot which actually decides strike action. The reality is that the rest of this year is likely to be heavily blighted by trains not running because staff are involved in industrial action. It's already happening now. Passengers are simply going to have to accept that.

In which case the railway better get used to decreasing funding because taxpayers will be contacting their MPs demanding exactly that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

If only we on the railway where as interested in others working conditions & pay. Very strange that they have such an opinion on ours don’t you think?

Perhaps because those opining are providing some of the billions in subsidy that the railways have had

 

[plugwash]

They are not going to want to spend 10's of thousands and the best part of a year to train someone only to have them jump ship down the road.

And that is the thing, the railway Unions have enjoyed the benefits of privatisation in terms of work on the railways no longer being a monopsony but they haven't seen the drawbacks of losing your job when your employer goes bust because the railways are "too big to fail".

 

[dk1]

Perhaps because those opining are providing some of the billions in subsidy that the railways have had

Just like me then with countless industries & things I support via my hefty tax deductions. I don’t make a fuss.

 

[Wolfie]

Just like me then with countless industries & things I support via my hefty tax deductions. I don’t make a fuss.

If your tax deductions are so hefty you obviously don't need a pay rise....



Strange, emojis weren't working for me for ages which may well have affected nuance

 

[dk1]

If your tax deductions are so hefty you obviously don't need a pay rise....



Strange, emojis weren't working for me for ages which may well have affected nuance

Haha, I like my saving & investing too much.

 

[g492p]

Really? I can't speak for nurses, but the pay rise for teachers for 2021-22 was a nice round 0%.

The one mooted for 2022-23 is (for most staff) less than half of the current inflation rate as well.

To be clear, I’m talking about 2022 - 23, where it seems a 3% increase is on the cards. Not saying that’s a good increase.

 

[Watershed]

And that is the thing, the railway Unions have enjoyed the benefits of privatisation in terms of work on the railways no longer being a monopsony but they haven't seen the drawbacks of losing your job when your employer goes bust because the railways are "too big to fail".

Indeed. This is arguably one of the biggest failures of the way that privatisation was implemented. Every TOC was let loose to conduct pay negotiations on its own, meaning there is now a complete hotchpotch of pay and conditions across the industry, despite the fact that ultimately they are all underwritten by the government.

The government has let its monopsony completely go to waste, meaning TOCs have been cannibalising staff off each other, with concomitant training and overtime costs. It will be very difficult, if not impossible, to align terms in a way that everyone can agree on.

 

[Cowley]

Evening everyone.

I’ve had a bit of a sort so that most of this discussion is all in the one place but I think it would be good if we could set a few ground rules before we go any further…

• Some of you work in the rail industry and we appreciate your take on things.

• Some you don’t work in the rail industry and we also appreciate your take on things…

Please be respectful towards each other, because we’d rather run a thread like this and hear everyone’s opinions than end up locking it because it’s become a shoutyfest.

All opinions welcome. Digging each other out..? Not so much, and we will remove posts that are deemed provocative or antagonist from here on just to keep things above board and valuable.

Over and out.

 

[dk1]

Evening everyone.

I’ve had a bit of a sort so that most of this discussion is all in the one place but I think it would be good if we could set a few ground rules before we go any further…

• Some of you work in the rail industry and we appreciate your take on things.

• Some you don’t work in the rail industry and we also appreciate your take on things…

Please be respectful towards each other, because we’d rather run a thread like this and hear everyone’s opinions than end up locking it because it’s become a shoutyfest.

All opinions welcome. Digging each other out..? Not so much, and we will remove posts that are deemed provocative or antagonist from here on just to keep things above board and valuable.

Over and out.

Cheers ta, thanks a lot. It’s good to talk. It’s differing opinions that help the world to rotate.

 

[Cowley]

Cheers ta, thanks a lot. It’s good to talk. It’s differing opinions that help the world to rotate.

Absolutely. I don’t think anyone on here is @JeffBezos.

(He’d be straight on moderation )

 

[Goldfish62]

Evening everyone.

I’ve had a bit of a sort so that most of this discussion is all in the one place but I think it would be good if we could set a few ground rules before we go any further…

• Some of you work in the rail industry and we appreciate your take on things.

• Some you don’t work in the rail industry and we also appreciate your take on things…

Please be respectful towards each other, because we’d rather run a thread like this and hear everyone’s opinions than end up locking it because it’s become a shoutyfest.

All opinions welcome. Digging each other out..? Not so much, and we will remove posts that are deemed provocative or antagonist from here on just to keep things above board and valuable.

Over and out.

Great stuff!! Well said.

 

[Falcon1200]

The reality is that the rest of this year is likely to be heavily blighted by trains not running because staff are involved in industrial action. It's already happening now. Passengers are simply going to have to accept that.

Why should passengers have to accept that ? If the railway is unable to provide the service they need they are entitled to take their custom elsewhere. And if Network Rail is hit by strike action, freight customers will be affected too. None of which will help railway staff achieve the same number of, or more, jobs, higher pay, or better conditions. The railway simply does not exist in an untouchable world of its own.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Why should passengers have to accept that ? If the railway is unable to provide the service they need they are entitled to take their custom elsewhere. And if Network Rail is hit by strike action, freight customers will be affected too. None of which will help railway staff achieve the same number of, or more, jobs, higher pay, or better conditions. The railway simply does not exist in an untouchable world of its own.

But the other side of that argument is that the TOCs or DfT won't do anything unless action is taken. They are not in the business of giving pay rises and improving terms, literally quite the opposite.

I'm not pro strike action as, having been discussed elsewhere, the people who are affected by strike action is the passengers and not the TOCs/DfT which is simply wrong. But how do you get the DfT to talk?

 

[bramling]

Why should passengers have to accept that ? If the railway is unable to provide the service they need they are entitled to take their custom elsewhere. And if Network Rail is hit by strike action, freight customers will be affected too. None of which will help railway staff achieve the same number of, or more, jobs, higher pay, or better conditions. The railway simply does not exist in an untouchable world of its own.

If passengers aren’t happy, they have the option to take it up with the politicians, who seem to be the root cause of most of the current mess.

Notwithstanding whether any of us feel staff, in particular drivers, are or aren’t deserving of pay rises going forward, the harsh reality is the industry is short of people, and needs quality candidates urgently. Attractive pay and conditions are part of that, and the industry is always at an inherent disadvantage because shift work is a complete turn-off for many.

 

[nedchester]

If passengers aren’t happy, they have the option to take it up with the politicians, who seem to be the root cause of most of the current mess.

Notwithstanding whether any of us feel staff, in particular drivers, are or aren’t deserving of pay rises going forward, the harsh reality is the industry is short of people, and needs quality candidates urgently. Attractive pay and conditions are part of that, and the industry is always at an inherent disadvantage because shift work is a complete turn-off for many.

If that's the case then why are drivers job applications massively over subscribed?

 

[4F89]

If that's the case then why are drivers job applications massively over subscribed?

But actually achieving the role is hard. Just because a million people want the job, doesn't mean a million people are qualified.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If that's the case then why are drivers job applications massively over subscribed?

Not everywhere is, and there is currently a lot of future planning being done which hasn't been the case over the last decade or so.

At my depot alone there is 4 current driver vacancies with 4 due to retire in the next 12 months. There needs to be a look at some depots where diagram changes have lead to short term overages but a few TOCs are looking 2-3 years down the line and are actively recruiting for those now rather than hoping to pinch qualified drivers as was happening before

 

[muz379]

None of which will help railway staff achieve the same number of, or more, jobs, higher pay, or better conditions. The railway simply does not exist in an untouchable world of its own.

To counter that though , you are correct in that the railway does not exist in a vaccum and so if some jobs are seen as less attractive to what is availble elsewhere then that will have an impact on the industries ability to run as well .

I certainly think we could see an increase in the previously rare phenomena of people leaving the rail industry for alternative employment outside of retirement if pay increases are not forthcoming and detrimental contract changes are brought in without suitable remuneration . Depending on grade this could be damaging to the ability to operate .

 

[JonathanH]

But the other side of that argument is that the TOCs or DfT won't do anything unless action is taken. They are not in the business of giving pay rises and improving terms, literally quite the opposite.

What organisation is in the business of giving pay rises without some reason to do so? The organisation I work for hasn't had an inflationary element of pay increases for at least ten years because there is nothing justifying it in terms of staff retention or competition for staff against its competitors (eg the starting pay amounts and grade boundaries haven't increased). An organisation which is looking to reduce headcount does not need to give pay increases because a bit of voluntary attrition is better than paying redundancy. The DfT would love to have a smaller payroll.

 

[dk1]

What organisation is in the business of giving pay rises without some reason to do so? The organisation I work for hasn't had an inflationary element of pay increases for at least ten years because there is nothing justifying it in terms of staff retention or competition for staff against its competitors. An organisation which is looking to reduce headcount does not need to give pay increases because a bit of voluntary attrition is better than paying redundancy. The DfT would love to have a smaller payroll.

We’ve always had pay rises year on year on the railway since time began. It’s just how it is.