RMT statement discussion.

[185]

Utter genius - NOT! Deprivation of property without compensation. Firstly utterly illegal under the European Convention of Human Rights. Secondly how in one simple lesson to trash your country's reputation as a safe place to do business subject to the rule of law. Forget inward investment or, if it comes, expect to pay a massive premium.

Human Rights?!

Depends if their so-called property can be deemed to be property of the state... seeing as much of their 'property' was built under BR - or funded entirely by our public money.

But extremely unlikely as large swathes of these sham leasing firms are owned by Tories and those who voted for them.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

But the RMT should be sitting down with the DfT and asking the question.

Only if these talks get nowhere should they then ballot the members.

But herein lies one of the problems. You are assuming the TOCs are willing to get around the table to talk. However as has been demonstrated in TPEs dispute so far management are pro-actively refusing to entertain any notion of talks, and it isn’t just RMT and the conductors who are refusing to work overtime or their days off, TPE drivers under ASLEF are also refusing to work their rest days too. No one will talk to them either……

It should be pointed out the national pay dispute being discussed in this thread is ALL grades, not just the greedy, lazy guards who already earn too much! That includes platform staff, ticket office staff, revenue protection etc and on some TOCs catering too. Unfortunately many catering and cleaning staff are outsourced however there have been separate disputes involving them of late as their pay AND conditions are very poor in comparison.

 

[43066]

But the minute a toc loses even a single bean even in many cases despite that being because of its own poor management we all have to pitch in to make it work .

If we work rest days we are greedy, if we don’t work them we are lazy. Can’t win really…

I think is a fair view, nothing wrong with a union going after pay rises however keeping a realistic goal, especially if industrial action is a possibility, is key. This government has already shown its perfectly happy to drop investment in infrastructure & in some parts of the country reduce service levels, so a prolonged campaign for pay rise levels way beyond elsewhere is not going to help. Punters will vote with their feet, and when even worse passenger levels come in the Tories won't hesitate to make more cuts in the industry.

This is exactly right, there’s a delicate balancing act to be struck. I’m not in favour of IA over pay, but then equally imposition of worse Ts and Cs with “because Covid” used as the excuse has to be avoided. The unions do need to choose their battles here.

The trouble is many on here will always oppose unions because they have been brainwashed into believing that working people daring to stand up for themselves is a bad thing. I’m sure Rishi Sunak and his daddy-is-a-billionaire-non-dom-wife are very happy indeed with the Daily Mail diverting righteous indignation towards train drivers on £70k per year…

 

[michael74]

Many Agenda For Change staff working for the NHS effectively had a 20% pay cut between 2010 and 2020.

As an aside, Intensive Care Nurses, who have a minimum of 3 years degree study and 18 months of post-qualification specialist training, are paid at exactly the same rate as every other non-specialist nurse within the NHS, despite being recognised as having a specialist role.

I'm no fan of "race to the bottom", indeed I'm a GMB union rep, so such a policy is the opposite of what I believe, but if I were to say to you or anyone else in the rail industry "we're going to reduce your pay by a 5th but expect you to take on more roles and responsibility" I'm sure you'd all be up in arms.

Unfortunately if we walked out of work people would die, hence why many of my colleagues feel unable to support such action. When the rail industry strikes, people walk.

I came here to say that.

Some thoughts...

I spent the last 15 years in the NHS as a nurse and the last 6 months working in a University. When I left the NHS I was top Band 6 and took a job at a University doing almost the same job, but on the University equivalent banding it was circa £4k less than the NHS, I took the pay cut because my job role was changing I had to either burn out or leave, so not all nurses are paid the same.....

I am not a degree nurse (but did top up my Diploma to increase chances of a Band 6 post at my own expense). As nottsnurse states the NHS is full of B5 nurses who have such responsibilities and working conditions that could be equated to one of a train driver but on circa £20+K less (before enhancements).

I was in the RCN and left for UNISON as the RCN was (and I think still is) as much use as a chocolate tea cup when it comes to national pay arrangements and motivating a workforce, I wanted a union who would stand up for the workers, but the issue is as nottsnurse eludes to nurses as a workforce will not walk out and the Govt knows this, I feel nurses are guilted (even from day 1 in training) into just rolling over and accepting either nothing or just peanuts. Rail staff obviously less so, but we know that when nurses walk out, they don't really, they just go on picket lines on their days off (and nationally only twice of late) people toot their horns and wave at the picket line when rail staff less vocal and media support is obvious, but the impact of rail staff walking out is felt instantly, very few people would notice a Pt die because an ICU was short staffed because nurses were working strictly to rule.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I am starting as a conductor in a few weeks and once productive I will be on the equivalent of bottom of B6, I think its a good starting point, but I do feel that your experience should be rewarded and a national system* not unlike the (what started out as Agenda for Change) NHS pay scales would be a good fit for the railway as with comes experience comes other unpaid roles such as mentoring new staff/trainees, and being a national system everyone is on the same salary for the same job and a national contract (lets pretend for a second Sundays in/out isn't an issues..) and built into the system are safeguards that if you are not doing a good job your salary step points can be paused until you improve (yes an overly simplistic explanation). Now before people talk about BR/Privatization etc, remember, your local hospital is likely a foundation trust, effectively a private company that gets a budget from Central Govt to run its services but is regulated by Govt run and appointed agencies (sounds familiar).

Now back to the topic, I will be joining the RMT (I understand) its the main union for conductors in my depot, I believe fully in the Union movement and everything they stand for, but I do not agree with the RMTs tactics, now is not the time for such bombastic rhetoric, it would not be popular with the public and media and that's how the Junior Drs and Nurses won their last pay round, they had the public and media on their side, over the years I never got the feeling the RMT grasped this. I do fully concede that I am new to the rail industry and previous pay rises were hard fought for and thoroughly deserved.

* NHS England Annual pay scales for staff under the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service (Agenda for Change) for 2021/22. (Bands 5 & 6)

 

[Goldfish62]

The ROSCO's for a start.

So which group of RMT members are employed by the ROSCOs and not getting a pay rise?

The implication of the RMT's statement is that members' employers are making big money. That simply is not the case. That doesn't mean that I think that members shouldn't get a pay rise. They should.

 

[Wolfie]

Human Rights?!

Depends if their so-called property can be deemed to be property of the state... seeing as much of their 'property' was built under BR - or funded entirely by our public money.

But extremely unlikely as large swathes of these sham leasing firms are owned by Tories and those who voted for them.

There is zero way that the assets of a private company, which incidentally established case law says have human rights, can be deemed to be the property of the state. You may not like the fact that BR rolling stock was sold off, legally and with payment made, to private companies. You equally may not like the fact that companies bought assets and leased them to the state at what you deem to be excessive rates. However, none of that in any way shape or legal form can be translated into state legal "ownership". If HMG was dumb enough to try they'd be crucified in the Courts.

 

[TheEdge]

If we work rest days we are greedy, if we don’t work them we are lazy. Can’t win really…

Schrodinger's driver.

This is exactly right, there’s a delicate balancing act to be struck. I’m not in favour of IA over pay, but then equally imposition of worse Ts and Cs with “because Covid” used as the excuse has to be avoided. The unions do need to choose their battles here.

This is how I feel. A lot of us have gone two or three years without so much as a sniff, and cost of living hits anyone on any wage, obviously not as badly, but our costs have still gone up. But is striking the right action right now? I'm less sure about that.

 

[Watershed]

everyone should suffer with higher costs for energy, fuel, food, council tax, pension contributions, national insurance, broadband, student loans, rental prices and Income tax which have all risen astronomically over the last year

Some costs have indeed risen astronomically (energy and fuel are probably the worst offenders in relative and absolute terms, respectively), which has certainly added pressure to people's budgets.

But rail pension contributions, student loan repayments and income tax haven't changed at all over the last year. Yes, thresholds for the latter two have been frozen, but that does not decrease your take-home pay. And even a 10% increase in broadband (as it is with some providers) will be at most a few pounds a month.

The increases in council tax and national insurance have been relatively modest (2.99% for most councils and 1.25 percentage points, respectively). In fact with the former, there is a £150 rebate coming for most households which will outweigh the increase, and with the latter, the increase in the threshold will outweigh the increase in the rate for anyone earning under ~£35k.

Things aren't easy, but let's not exaggerate.

 

[JonathanH]

You are assuming the TOCs are willing to get around the table to talk.

The TOCs don't exactly have any power to talk. Decisions being made are by the DfT whose budget is constrained by the Treasury.

 

[Goldfish62]

The TOCs don't exactly have any power to talk. Decisions being made are by the DfT whose budget is constrained by the Treasury.

Exactly. I still don't think it's got through to a lot of people, including some working in the industry, just how much the Treasury and DfT control everything on the railways.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I respect what you say Clarence Yard, but when I am driving a train out of London with over 700 people on board headed to the southwest, clearly taking in over 50k in revenue, is it really unreasonable of me to think now IS the time to get a payrise (after 2 years of nothing). The railways are surely making money on long distance routes, must we all suffer for the fact the commuter routes are dead in the water?.

Don't you also look at the regional/local lines your employer/DfT is operating and not see where the money goes?
Then replicate it nationally across a score of TOCs.
The government has pumped in something like £11 billion to keep the railway afloat for 2 years, with no job losses (while building Crossrail and HS2).
Commercially the railway is on its knees, and will take years to recover (as will many Covid-hit industries).
In the circumstances I would have thought the DfT fares rise (3.1%) is a reasonable start to pay expectations.
But there will be cuts to come, which have not even started yet. Excessive pay rises will make those cuts deeper.

 

[muz379]

If we work rest days we are greedy, if we don’t work them we are lazy. Can’t win really…

Or sundays , if we want them in the working week we are being unrealistic , if we dont cover them when they are not we are being unncessarilly militant .

 

[Goldfish62]

There is zero way that the assets of a private company, which incidentally established case law says have human rights, can be deemed to be the property of the state. You may not like the fact that BR rolling stock was sold off, legally and with payment made, to private companies. You equally may not like the fact that companies bought assets and leased them to the state at what you deem to be excessive rates. However, none of that in any way shape or legal form can be translated into state legal "ownership". If HMG was dumb enough to try they'd be crucified in the Courts.

That is why not even Labour under Corbyn was proposing touching the ROSCO's.

 

[ComUtoR]

The TOCs don't exactly have any power to talk. Decisions being made are by the DfT whose budget is constrained by the Treasury.

The TOCs have far more powers than you think. They very much have the power to talk and have been. The DfT has the final say and can freely decline but it's the TOCs that are still running the buisness on a day to day.

 

[D1537]

Teachers, nurses, those on benefits, minimum wage workers are all gettting a pay rise. In the private sector, wages are estimated to rise by 5% this year on average. I think it’s fair that rail staff receive a pay increase too.

Really? I can't speak for nurses, but the pay rise for teachers for 2021-22 was a nice round 0%.

The one mooted for 2022-23 is (for most staff) less than half of the current inflation rate as well.

 

[seagull]

Teachers did, however receive 2.75% (or 5.5% for new entrants) in 2020. Not a huge amount either but not zero.
Most traincrew's last one was early 2019.
In any case comparisons between industries are futile, there will always be someone getting something that someone else isn't.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The TOCs don't exactly have any power to talk. Decisions being made are by the DfT whose budget is constrained by the Treasury.

Exactly. I still don't think it's got through to a lot of people, including some working in the industry, just how much the Treasury and DfT control everything on the railways.

They can still get around a table and discuss the situation. They wont even entertain that. They have refused to talk BECUSE we are in dispute. Instead they have plugged their ears with their fingers and said “la la la la la la………..”

 

[43096]

They can still get around a table and discuss the situation. They wont even entertain that. They have refused to talk BECUSE we are in dispute. Instead they have plugged their ears with their fingers and said “la la la la la la………..”

Ask yourself why that might be the case. There’s some warnings from the P&O situation where the company came to the conclusion (probably rightly) that trying to negotiate with the RMT was utterly futile. As always the RMT will be ignorant of just how they come across.

 

[Goldfish62]

They can still get around a table and discuss the situation. They wont even entertain that. They have refused to talk BECUSE we are in dispute. Instead they have plugged their ears with their fingers and said “la la la la la la………..”

No, they can't even talk to the unions about pay without the DfT's permission.

 

[320320]

I will absolutely be getting a rise this year. Probably a decent one and with luck, one in line with inflation. No previous agreements have been in place. This will be a 100% new deal.

Hopefully you are correct. Aslef have asked Scotrail for 7.8% and greater terms and condition.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Some TOCs have been directly told by the DfT not to enter into any talks whatsoever about pay and conditions.

It’s shambolic and the RMT needs to engage directly with the DfT and start to forget about the individual TOCs.

 

[muz379]

Really? I can't speak for nurses, but the pay rise for teachers for 2021-22 was a nice round 0%.

The one mooted for 2022-23 is (for most staff) less than half of the current inflation rate as well.

Again once upon a time used to be a comparatively well paying job with decent conditions , not so much the case anymore.

And suprise suprise another industry that struggles to attract and keep talent .

 

[northwichcat]

Some TOCs have been directly told by the DfT not to enter into any talks whatsoever about pay and conditions.

It’s shambolic and the RMT needs to engage directly with the DfT and start to forget about the individual TOCs.

It sounds like the TOCs, for practical purposes, have been put in to administration by DfT and no longer control their own finances.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

Again once upon a time used to be a comparatively well paying job with decent conditions , not so much the case anymore.

And suprise suprise another industry that struggles to attract and keep talent .

There was a large jump in teacher salaries at one point. In the 1990s it was impossible to recruit teachers for some subjects like IT as even the best paid teaching roles feel well short of the equivalent non-teaching role in IT. By the mid 00s the jump meant qualified IT professionals were choosing to teach over other IT roles.

 

[alangla]

Hopefully you are correct. Aslef have asked Scotrail for 7.8% and greater terms and condition.

Should I start researching bus routes to work now or wait for the ballot?

 

[matacaster]

If inflation is 4% giving everyone in the country a 4% pay rise will not solve anything as this just stokes more inflation. The value of the money will have decreased in respect of everything that is imported as the pound's value will drop on news that everyone's got a 4% wage increase. If the rail unions do get a big increase, you can be sure that others will suffer as there is only so much that can be doled out in say benefits etc without reducing value of the pound. Of course it might make you feel better to get a rise.

 

[D1537]

There was a large jump in teacher salaries at one point. In the 1990s it was impossible to recruit teachers for some subjects like IT as even the best paid teaching roles feel well short of the equivalent non-teaching role in IT. By the mid 00s the jump meant qualified IT professionals were choosing to teach over other IT roles.

Whereas now they aren't, and we're right back to square one, with qualified Computer Science* teachers, especially for A-Level, like rocking horse droppings.

(*See also: Physics, Further Maths)

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It sounds like the TOCs, for practical purposes, have been put in to administration by DfT and no longer control their own finances.

Well yes, that's what NRCs are. My TOC is now under essentially a management contract, profits over a certain threshold go to the DfT, we are employed by the TOC but the TOC has zero control over finances now.

Also, people seem to be forgetting that RMT are mostly representing the guard grade so seeing people mention driver salaries as a way of saying we earn shed loads is unhelpful.
A salary of around £30-35k is nice, but it's hardly a huge salary when compared to similar industries.

 

[geoffk]

If inflation is 4% giving everyone in the country a 4% pay rise will not solve anything as this just stokes more inflation.

Unless the 4% increase is paid for by improved productivity. I'm not in a position to say to what extent that's possible though but others will be.

 

[muz379]

Well yes, that's what NRCs are. My TOC is now under essentially a management contract, profits over a certain threshold go to the DfT, we are employed by the TOC but the TOC has zero control over finances now.

Also, people seem to be forgetting that RMT are mostly representing the guard grade so seeing people mention driver salaries as a way of saying we earn shed loads is unhelpful.
A salary of around £30-35k is nice, but it's hardly a huge salary when compared to similar industries.

sorry but the RMT doesn't "mostly" represent the guards grade .

Yes conflating traincrew salaries is wrong , but so is what you suggested .

 

[320320]

Should I start researching bus routes to work now or wait for the ballot?

We‘ll know more on Monday as that’s when Aslef and Scotrail reconvene. I’d imagine an offer of less than 5% and you’d be as well researching alternative methods of transport until there’s a resolution.