RMT settle dispute with Greater Anglia

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the driver would go completely. What happens when there's a computer fault? The train just sits there until someone comes out and rescues it?

It'll be the same as the DLR. There will be a guard, or whatever you call him. He will check tickets, close the doors and press the go button, and maybe even flog Kit Kats and coffee as well. But he'll be safety trained, like a member of airline cabin crew, and trained in manually driving the train at low speed on sight (say up to 40mph) to a suitable location for evacuation.

(Between now and then, imagine how much more computer hacking and security issues there will be to contend with, as an aside).

It's a risk, but it's a low risk with a system you have no reason to connect to the Internet.

I'd still want a real person to try and save the plane if the computer gives up.

Ironically most plane crashes are caused by human error. Take all the humans out and there'll be far fewer plane crashes.

On a train, you'd most likely just stop, but if you're trying to keep to time then you need staff.

A guard.

Hence why I think DOO is a blip and it's the driver grade which is really threatened. GOO will be the future on long-distance services. Some services may even be completely staffless, it would for example make massive differences to the economics of branch lines, and it's already done on metros around the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This does of course depend on what one means by “driverless”. I would think UTO might even be generations away. Humans are social animals, after all, and appreciate a representative of the operator being on board to provide a natural human interface between the operator and the passenger (or to provide a target to berate when things out of its control go wrong .

I would be very surprised if full ATO, though, with a single train manager on board (as per DLR), perhaps dealing with door closure and despatch (or even perhaps not, computer vision and other sensor fusion really is getting rather good these days, and would be expected to surpass human capabilities fairly soon if not already, given appropriate sensing input), perhaps just dealing with customer queries and ticketing, is not the norm by 2050, probably sooner

I completely agree. People do like that face (hence why DOO isn't universally popular with passengers), and it's far better if he's out and about in the train rather than shut in the cab.

GOO is the future. DOO is a blip.

 

[Dave1987]

I disagree, and I think *you* take a very Luddite line which is putting your head in the sand.

Mark my words, within 30 years there will be at least some driverless trains (guard-only operation) on the mainline. I still predict it'll be HS2 on the dedicated stretches to start with - no level crossings, one set of rolling stock so PEDs feasible etc (hence no need to be looking out for people on the track) - it could be done now, as it has been on the DLR for years. Automating HS2 on the LGV is just like a faster DLR, that's all. It is not a difficult proposition at all.

Call me what you like. This post has proven to me you really don't know what you are talking about. And AGAIN this has been done to death on other threads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Call me what you like. This post has proven to me you really don't know what you are talking about.

Mark my words, it will happen. Putting your head in the sand won't stop it.

And AGAIN this has been done to death on other threads.

When you become a moderator you gain the right to tell me what I may or may not discuss (though I admit it is a bit OT so I will leave it there). Until then, feel free to report my posts if you wish, but otherwise it is none of your business what I wish to post about.

 

[Dave1987]

Mark my words, it will happen. Putting your head in the sand won't stop it.

I won't mark your words as I don't believe you understand what you are talking about. Little details in your posts tells me you don't understand what you are talking about. So I won't be giving any credence to your posts.

 

[XDM]

I won't mark your words as I don't believe you understand what you are talking about. Little details in your posts tells me you don't understand what you are talking about. So I won't be giving any credence to your posts.

I will mark his words. They are sensible, prophetic & worth marking. Many would prefer & agree with Bletchleyite's view of the near future than a Luddite head in the sand attitude. Grasp the future, not the past. An automated railway has a grand future. There will still be jobs for technology minded people, but not for machine minders.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Like I said I don't think you really understand what you are on about. But this has been done to death in other threads.

If you don't like the discussion or find it irritating, then don't partake. But just trying to close it down is futile.

 

[313103]

I disagree, and I think *you* take a very Luddite line which is putting your head in the sand.

Mark my words, within 30 years there will be at least some driverless trains (guard-only operation) on the mainline. I still predict it'll be HS2 on the dedicated stretches to start with - no level crossings, one set of rolling stock so PEDs feasible etc (hence no need to be looking out for people on the track) - it could be done now, as it has been on the DLR for years. Automating HS2 on the LGV is just like a faster DLR, that's all. It is not a difficult proposition at all.

You may well see it in your life time, but i most certainly wont see it in mine.

I wonder how many people will then be employed in the rail industry you envisage and by what you say on here want? 80,000? 50,000, 30,000, 10,000, 5,000?

Seems that the UK rail system is the only country in the world, where complete de staffing is what everyone wants. The mind certainly boggles in this lovely little island of ours.

 

[DT611]

it would for example make massive differences to the economics of branch lines

Yeah you will have nobody paying the fare. Or very few of them anyway. Because there won't be staff to catch them.

 

[Dave1987]

If you don't like the discussion or find it irritating, then don't partake. But just trying to close it down is futile.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139956&page=28

Thread on it is still open......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems that the UK rail system is the only country in the world, where complete de staffing is what everyone wants.

Eh? Let's see.

Completely automated metros in the UK with no staff on board whatsoever: 0 (unless you count airport transits)
Completely automated metros in other countries with no staff on board whatsoever: lots (I used one just yesterday, in Lausanne)

DOO metros in the UK with no station staff whatsoever: 0
DOO metros in other countries with no station staff whatsoever: lots

The facts simply do not back up your view.

As for what people want, to most people I would imagine a guard they can talk to for assistance is of more value than a driver they can't.

And the UK has far less DOO than, say, Switzerland, in which EVERY SBB standard gauge regional train, yes, every last one of them, is DOO.

 

[313103]

Eh? Let's see.

Completely automated metros in the UK with no staff on board whatsoever: 0 (unless you count airport transits)
Completely automated metros in other countries with no staff on board whatsoever: lots (I used one just yesterday, in Lausanne)

DOO metros in the UK with no station staff whatsoever: 0
DOO metros in other countries with no station staff whatsoever: lots

The facts simply do not back up your view.

As for what people want, to most people I would imagine a guard they can talk to for assistance is of more value than a driver they can't.

And the UK has far less DOO than, say, Switzerland, in which EVERY SBB standard gauge regional train, yes, every last one of them, is DOO.

They are most certainly not my views, read the posts on Southern DOO, Merseyrail DOO, Arriva Northern DOO and this one on Greater Anglia. The vast majority of staff active in this forum are against DOO, whereas the vast majority of non railway staff are for it.

You have also misinterpreted what i have said, I didnt say it is what we have now, i said and again its taken from views i have read on here and members of the public i have to deal with on a day to day basis, it is what the people want, not what we currently have. People think that by reducing the amount of staff they believe there fares will reduce accordingly.

Population of Switzerland 8,454, 083 (2017 figures), Population of the United Kingdom 65,111, 143 (2016 figures) London population based on figures from 2016 shows that it has more people living here then in the whole of Switzerland. So comparing Switzerland with the UK is wrong. Based on per head of population the UK should be compared with France (66.9 million) or Italy (60 million). How much DOO is in use in these two countries?

 

[Eccles1983]

Swiss rail milage -3330
Uk rail milage 9500

Comparing apples with pritt sticks really.

 

[HH]

Swiss rail milage -3330
Uk rail milage 9500

Comparing apples with pritt sticks really.

Switzerland has negative rail mileage? How does that work? Plus, what do you mean by mileage? ...Switzerland measures things by kilometres.

P.S. For future reference milEage has an E in it.

 

[yorkie]

Seems that the UK rail system is the only country in the world, where complete de staffing is what everyone wants. The mind certainly boggles in this lovely little island of ours.

This is so untrue it's unbelievable. We will never have "complete de-staffing" and most people do support more visible staff on trains and/or at stations.

There are more staff working in the rail industry now than ever before!

Incidentally your former employer now has staff at all stations at all times trains operate, with a far more visible staff presence than ever before, with huge increases in patronage, along with decreases in anti-social behaviour and ticketless travel.

 

[313103]

There are more staff working in the rail industry now than ever before!

How do you work that one out? There isnt half the amount of staff employed then when i started in 1980.

Incidentally your former employer now has staff at all stations at all times trains operate, with a far more visible staff presence than ever before, with huge increases in patronage, decreases in anti-social behaviour and ticketless travel.

Incidentally they had staff at all stations from first train until the last one before i left, with the visibility of staff that will be left open to question, on one recent trip on London Overground i boarded at Richmond and did not see a member of staff until i alighted at Camden Road and then it was a former colleague who when i spoke had nothing nice to say about the new company. On another trip a couple of days later from Camden Road to West Croydon i saw one member of staff at the barriers and then the next staff presence was when i had to show my pass at the barriers at West Croydon and ditto on the way back, so so much for staff presence! Certainly NONE on the train.

Anti social behaviour and crime were already low when i left so much so that all stations were given a safe station award for safety by the BTP and the passenger watchdog.

 

[yorkie]

How do you work that one out? There isnt half the amount of staff employed then when i started in 1980.

What were the figures in 1980 then? We're not talking about track workers here.

Incidentally they had staff at all stations from first train until the last one before i left, with the visibility of staff that will be left open to question, on one recent trip on London Overground i boarded at Richmond and did not see a member of staff until i alighted at Camden Road and then it was a former colleague who when i spoke had nothing nice to say about the new company. On another trip a couple of days later from Camden Road to West Croydon i saw one member of staff at the barriers and then the next staff presence was when i had to show my pass at the barriers at West Croydon and ditto on the way back, so so much for staff presence!

The stations were unstaffed, but under the move to a TfL concession they became staffed. You left after the stations had become staffed.

Certainly NONE on the train.

No change there then; I never used to see staff patrolling the trains before. I have had ticket checks recently; but I never saw a ticket check happen back in the old days before it became a TfL concession.

Anti social behaviour and crime were already low when i left so much so that all stations were given a safe station award for safety by the BTP and the passenger watchdog.

That's because staff were introduced to stations before you left! This is an increase in staffing that occurred relatively recently and there are no plans to get rid of these staff.

 

[313103]

What were the figures in 1980 then? We're not talking about track workers here.


The stations were unstaffed, but under the move to a TfL concession they became staffed. You left after the stations had become staffed.


No change there then; I never used to see staff patrolling the trains before. I have had ticket checks recently; but I never saw a ticket check happen back in the old days before it became a TfL concession.


That's because staff were introduced to stations before you left! This is an increase in staffing that occurred relatively recently and there are no plans to get rid of these staff.

Seems you are trying to muddy the waters by comparing what it was like under National Express ownership as Silverlink (who got the franchise on a NO growth so no investment take on) and the take over by TFL in 2007 as London Overground (which incidentally had money thrown at it compared to what had happened previously).

You never saw staff patrol trains because of what? Most probably because the units in use at the time were class 313s, i mean i could easily dispatch a train from anywhere other then the rear cab couldn't i? You couldn't possibly say that when the 378s came in, Guards had to be in the train or they were disciplined under poor performance procedures. This obviously all changed when the company announced that Guards would be dispensed with. Even on the very last train i worked i was dispatching from the train and speaking to the passengers.

Revenue checks were dispensed with by Silverlink when they made the revenue team surplus to requirements, so its obvious that ticket checks were never going to be carried out. Again a result of lack of investment by National Express.

I left seven years after staff were employed at all the stations, so maybe a short time in the history of the railways, but certainly a long time in the history of London Overground.

 

[Richard1960]

In my area every single train that comes through Harlow Town is DOO already on the GA network.

But this could potentially bring Norwich to a standstill if it goes that far by the RMT as every service out of Norwich is Guard operated to my knowledge, but as a trade unionist myself I am glad the RMT are on the case.

Think in a few years time they may well have a real battle on their hands sadly.

 

[Eccles1983]

Switzerland has negative rail mileage? How does that work? Plus, what do you mean by mileage? ...Switzerland measures things by kilometres.

P.S. For future reference milEage has an E in it.

I'm not in Switzerland.

But well done in raising a valid point. I must of missed it in your pathetic attempt at being a smart arse.

 

[HH]

I'm not in Switzerland.

But well done in raising a valid point. I must of missed it in your pathetic attempt at being a smart arse.

That should be must have. I expect you miss a lot.

 

[Clip]

They are most certainly not my views, read the posts on Southern DOO, Merseyrail DOO, Arriva Northern DOO and this one on Greater Anglia. The vast majority of staff active in this forum are against DOO, whereas the vast majority of non railway staff are for it.

You have also misinterpreted what i have said, I didnt say it is what we have now, i said and again its taken from views i have read on here and members of the public i have to deal with on a day to day basis, it is what the people want, not what we currently have. People think that by reducing the amount of staff they believe there fares will reduce accordingly.

Population of Switzerland 8,454, 083 (2017 figures), Population of the United Kingdom 65,111, 143 (2016 figures) London population based on figures from 2016 shows that it has more people living here then in the whole of Switzerland. So comparing Switzerland with the UK is wrong. Based on per head of population the UK should be compared with France (66.9 million) or Italy (60 million). How much DOO is in use in these two countries?

Im sorry but you lose all credibility in your argument on here yet again when you purposely deflect from what you originally said when it is pointed out to you that you were speaking rubbish

Seems that the UK rail system is the only country in the world, where complete de staffing is what everyone wants. The mind certainly boggles in this lovely little island of ours.

Irrelevant of the populations of any country, Neil quite rightly pointed out that your original statement was wrong. I remember being in Athens once and not seeing anyone on the trains checking tickets or a guard either but i guess because Athens isnt a country then it doesnt count according to you does it?

 

[footprints]

Greater Anglia have said they intend to run their full timetable during RMT strikes on 3rd and 5th October.

http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/rmt-announce-dates-for-greater-anglia-strike-action/story-30516177-detail/story.html

 

[Kite159]

The biggest area which will could be impacted is the DMU services from Norwich. The former Great Eastern area south of Ipswich & the West Anglian line shouldn't be affected that badly as the bulk of those services are already DOO.

 

[IanXC]

The biggest area which will could be impacted is the DMU services from Norwich. The former Great Eastern area south of Ipswich & the West Anglian line shouldn't be affected that badly as the bulk of those services are already DOO.

Presumably they believe they can cover this area with, (a) local CTMs and DTMs (b) DTMs from the DOO patch (c) contingency conductors. Certainly seems plausible to me - the number that fall into those categories compared to the number of potential striking Conductors has to be much more manageable than at a 'no DOO TOC'.

 

[TMD Tom]

GA have been sending middle management on short courses to train them as 'conductors' for the last few months. They seem confident they can provide cover for most services, including the locals.

 

[Kite159]

Presumably they believe they can cover this area with, (a) local CTMs and DTMs (b) DTMs from the DOO patch (c) contingency conductors. Certainly seems plausible to me - the number that fall into those categories compared to the number of potential striking Conductors has to be much more manageable than at a 'no DOO TOC'.

Only potential fly in the ointment is any drivers decide to refuse to cross the picket lines (similar to what happened at the start of the Merseyrail action).

 

[footprints]

It seems to have dawned on RMT that their strike action on Greater Anglia is going to have no effect on services and they're trying to up the ante.

An overtime ban will now come into effect from 10th October - 6th November inclusive.

 

[tsr]

There will still be jobs for technology minded people, but not for machine minders.

"Technology minded people" (do you mean "technically"?) generally end up being machine minders on the railways. I am a very technically minded railway worker, very much "in the thick of it" when it comes to new stuff being introduced, and yet I spend a sizeable chunk of each working day fixing stuff. That applies whether it's dealing with commercial issues (new TIS, new payment methods or TVM issues) or rolling stock (PIS operation, other facilities such as toilet modules or HVAC, or more serious fundamentals such as traction issues) or stations (dispatch, lighting, staff information).

The railway has a very "interesting" habit of deploying stuff which isn't quite ready, in fact it always has - and then the rule books "get written in blood" based on past accidents, in order to ensure faults and failures are dealt with properly. This applies as much to getting the machines to be compliant as anything else. I don't see train crew responsibilities drifting away from either high levels of training need, or major troubleshooting, for years to come.

On the other hand, I am always happy to see things being improved. There are huge numbers of dedicated people who will spot a flaw and actually try to do something about it. A bit more co-ordination wouldn't go amiss, but the railway has the talent there. It may just not be used in the way you think...

 

[Dave1987]

I will mark his words. They are sensible, prophetic & worth marking. Many would prefer & agree with Bletchleyite's view of the near future than a Luddite head in the sand attitude. Grasp the future, not the past. An automated railway has a grand future. There will still be jobs for technology minded people, but not for machine minders.

I’m absolutely certain that I’m 10 times more technically minded than you think I am. In fact you have no clue about me or my background! I also know how technology works in the real world and where it’s pitfalls are. The beauty of watching the world go by at very high speed every day. I’m sure your extreme right wing mind wants me and my colleagues on the dole as soon as possible. How dare people want to have decent jobs in the future....