RMT join fight to save Wrexham/Birmingham service

[LNW-GW Joint]

What about returning the Bidstons to 153s and using the 150s elsewhere?
Do they ever carry more than 70-odd passengers?

I would also observe, before getting roasted, that user groups are not the gatekeepers to changes to rail services.
Comments, fine. Veto, no (there are many other stakeholders).
The balance will be between relative cost and benefits, surely?

I don't remember any consultation about ATW's standard pattern timetable when it was introduced.
It was just a given based on the franchise bid.
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go with the operator's proposals, at least for now.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It is not only Wrexham commuters who use the train, between 50 & 60 sometimes more board at Gobowen,which is large catchment area for North North Montgomery & Oswestry areas.

I'm really getting lost on this one. So more than 50 commute from Gobowen every day (presumably to Telford as the train doesn't get into Birmingham until well after 9) and many more do so from Wrexham. I think that until someone releases the exact figures of the regular numbers of commuters it is impossible to make any further judgement on this one (apart from the fact that having to leave 15 mins earlier is not the end of the world!)

 

[PHILIPE]

What about returning the Bidstons to 153s and using the 150s elsewhere?
Do they ever carry more than 70-odd passengers?

I would also observe, before getting roasted, that user groups are not the gatekeepers to changes to rail services.
Comments, fine. Veto, no (there are many other stakeholders).
The balance will be between relative cost and benefits, surely?

I don't remember any consultation about ATW's standard pattern timetable when it was introduced.
It was just a given based on the franchise bid.
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go with the operator's proposals, at least for now.

Backward step. 153s were deliberately taken off the Bidstons because of inability to keep time on the tight schedules and to provide more seats.

 

[D1009]

I'm really getting lost on this one. So more than 50 commute from Gobowen every day (presumably to Telford as the train doesn't get into Birmingham until well after 9) and many more do so from Wrexham. I think that until someone releases the exact figures of the regular numbers of commuters it is impossible to make any further judgement on this one (apart from the fact that having to leave 15 mins earlier is not the end of the world!)

I suspect the "50 or 60" refers to the total number joining at Gobowen, most of whom probably work in Shrewsbury.

 

[Tracky]

Tracky is certainly not the only one pressing the case for Holyhead - Cardiff, as I have made clear in this and several other threads.

One thing that has not come out in any of these discussions, so far as I am aware, (and it also touches on the connections from the Cambrian line to Cardiff) is that it is clear WG policy to increase connectivity between all parts of Wales, and in particular between the North and the South. Historically, North Wales has looked to merseyside and Manchester, and mid Wales to Birminghma etc, and certainly the North has never been particularly well connected to the south, mainly due to the mountains, and the East-west direction of the main road and rail links. WG are thinking to alter this, and I think, although this is my supposition, to change the perception in the North that we are remote and distant from decision-making from and the capital.

On the whole I don't favour North South trains. Having said that, when you consider the type of rolling stock available, 67s and MkIIIs lend themselves to long distance limited stop workings. Creating a two hourly limited stop service would give capacity on services connecting with Virgin trains at Chester. A Birmingham service formed of a 158 starting from Chester could then follow serving the intermediate stations. This would rid North Wales of 158s for Aberystwyth to Crewe services which would connect neatly with Chester Birmingham services.

The problem is still where you dump the two car 175s. They are little use anywhere and in multiple are a pain to work and a problem for catering, customer service and revenue protection.

As for 153s on the Bidstons, they are underpowered, even pairing doesn't help much and they are just a bad design. 150s soak up pushchairs too. A requirement at the southern end of the line.

 

[merlodlliw]

I suspect the "50 or 60" refers to the total number joining at Gobowen, most of whom probably work in Shrewsbury.

Many of them work in industry at Telford.

 

[krus_aragon]

Kris Aragon does not mention other commuters on his trains, it might be that only he is effected ...

Very true. I doubt that anyone else is in the exact same position that I was in. (I'm now working elsewhere.) I haven't any survey figures to document how many people are/were inconvenienced by specific service changes, and wouldn't foresee collecting them either. It's just the case that every person's commute is their own personal tragedy when it goes wrong.

From my personal observations, there are typically no more than a dozen people disembarking at Bangor on the 0750 arrival: most arrive on the 0845, including a lot of schoolkids from Conwy onwards. The 1505 and 1620 departures call all stops to the Junction, serving the school market. So the service pattern seems to serve the majority quite well in this instance.

I can't say how many people are inconvenienced by the 1620 running non-stop after the Junction as I (and they) would typically seek to travel on another train, or by other means instead. Neither can I appreciate the extra space afforded to commuters east of the Junction who get their own stopping service, rather than having to share with ferry passengers and their luggage out of Holyhead.

When I've travelled on the 1810 (which connects with the stopper) I'd typically see only half a dozen people follow me on to the stopper at the Junction, but then this is a post-rush-hour service. The busiest service out of Bangor in the evening is by far the 1720, which is often standing room only, especially of a Friday. But that's no different to what I've seen in the suburbs of Cardiff: we're all feeling the lack of rolling stock.

Having said that, these are personal observations. Take them all with a liberal serving of salt.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It is not only Wrexham commuters who use the train, between 50 & 60 sometimes more board at Gobowen,which is large catchment area for North North Montgomery & Oswestry areas.

This is at the heart of the matter, I'm amazed that those that want more direct trains from north to South Wales feel they are so more important than the needs of communities along the route whose focus is not on travel in that direction. Gobowens catchment is around 50,000 and most live in England where Cardiff is in all due respect an irrelevance on a daily basis.

I've said it before And I'll keep saying the market for north to South is Wales is "thin" it accounts for less than 3% of the footfall in North Wales increasing the number of services will not change that and will undermine the business case to wire the north wales coast which will be of enormous benefit to the communities along the coast. An hourly service to Cardiff is not compatible with a modernised railway.
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Many of them work in industry at Telford.

Which some people who want to travel from north to South Wales don't appreciate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess the key figure really, is the number of rail users ATW/WG/Cambrian user group expect to gain by having the additional service from Aberywstwyth (making it hourly) set against those who will decide not to travel (to travel by an alternative form of transport) rather than use the earlier train from Wrexham, Ruabon, Chirk and Gobowen...

TheEast Suffolk and the Branches in Devon and Cornwall that had their frequencies doubled in recent years averaged 58% increase in footfall in the first 3 years. What will get with 4 extra trains will probably be short of that. Cambrian mainline footfall is c900,000 per annum at moment.

 

[transmanche]

I've said it before And I'll keep saying the market for north to South is Wales is "thin"

Repetition does not equal fact.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Repetition does not equal fact.

3% of the footfall in North Wales county's is from/ to South Wales ones, that's the hard facts from the Office of Rail Regulators official statistics. Please feel free to do some research into what the market actual is. I did.

People are getting upset about the time table between Chester and Shrewsbury becoming increasingly one that sees trains being diverted from where they want to go to One that goes to Cardiff for a good reason. It's not a whim or a protest from a small group of people moaning for no good reason it's concern that transport links that the majority see as being in the natural direction are being eroded to benefit a small number.

 

[strettonarms96]

I think another service problem arising from the May timetable change is the retiming of the morning howl service into Shrewsbury. This service (now arriving into Shrewsbury at 0822) is always full or over capacity with college students who start at 0850. From May they will arrive before 8 am with passengers from Craven Arms leaving at 0725. Ridiculous! The next train (Manchester) gets in at 0850 is too late and thus means travelling to shrewsbury is going to become very unpractical.

 

[transmanche]

3% of the footfall in North Wales county's is from/ to South Wales ones, that's the hard facts from the Office of Rail Regulators official statistics. Please feel free to do some research into what the market actual is. I did.

It's something that you bang on about incessantly, whilst 'conveniently' forgetting about all the intermediate journeys which are made easier by through trains. North-South trains are not about end-to-end journeys.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's something that you bang on about incessantly, whilst 'conveniently' forgetting about all the intermediate journeys which are made easier by through trains. North-South trains are not about end-to-end journeys.

The Marches Rail Users Alliance has published its main priorities, you'll note that they are seemingly content for any Holyhead to Cardiff trains to fly by. So demand for intermediate journey opportunities to North Wales from Ludlow, Leominister etc appear not to be any sort of issue.

And MRUA has wasted little time in signalling its intentions.

This week, ahead of a review of Arriva Trains Wales as the operating franchise, MRUA has identified four key issues with the line that it is “keen to discuss” with Arriva, the Department for Transport and the Welsh Assembly.


They are:

1. Provision of an hourly stopping train between Hereford and Shrewsbury

At present, says MRUA, the pattern is irregular with a “considerable imbalance” at certain times of the day.

Examples are cited as a gap from Church Stretton to Shrewsbury between 1504 and 1655 and another between 0938 and 1138 southbound from Craven Arms to Hereford.

MRUA wants an hourly stopping train interspersed with faster limited stop services.

2. Capacity Management

Members of MRUA’s constituent groups find increasing overcrowding on certain trains.

MRUA wants most trains to be made up of three cars with additional capacity to meet the
3. Connections

MRUA has picked up on frustration at apparent poor connections at Hereford (for the Worcester line), Shrewsbury (for Wolverhampton and Birmingham) and Newport (for London and the West).

Passengers at smaller stations are said to face waiting areas that are “very basic” and a cafe at Hereford that closes at 18.00 when the station is still busy.

4. Integration for onward travel

MRUA says this could be improved at most stations at modest cost and in some cases may be deterring travel.

Cited as examples of scope for improvement are: pedestrian approaches at Hereford and Ludlow, car parking at Leominster and bus service information generally.

MRUA represents an alliance of the Rail User groups along the high capacity rail link between Hereford and Shrewsbury, which has a population of 200,000 living within easy distance of six stations.

 

[transmanche]

The Marches Rail Users Alliance has published its main priorities, you'll note that they are seemingly content for any Holyhead to Cardiff trains to fly by. So demand for intermediate journey opportunities to North Wales from Ludlow, Leominister etc appear not to be any sort of issue.

*yawn* TL;DR

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Name the other lines in the UK where direct trains to where vast majority of people want to go are being taken off to provide direct trains where not many want to go?

Splitting the Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Nottingham - Skegness line into three badly connected portions is one obvious example. Crewe (and its hinterland) in particular needs direct services to Nottingham more than Matlock does.

 

[PHILIPE]

Splitting the Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Nottingham - Skegness line into three badly connected portions is one obvious example. Crewe (and its hinterland) in particular needs direct services to Nottingham more than Matlock does.

Many instances of this are for operating convenience , diagramming purposes for one, and not for the benefit of passengers.

 

[merlodlliw]

I have been advised by a colleague that open trains times on May 18th,still have the 0747 Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Birmingham remaining in the system.
This is the first bit of good news,although the information is provisional,the ATW consultative document to stakeholders will confirm,when it arrives.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WRX/2015/05/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[PHILIPE]

Trains available in the National Rail Booking Engine are only available as yet to 12 May. Real Time Trains is working on 3 Calender months prior to Timetable Date but the Booking Engine works on 12 actual weeks. There is a Heart of Wales train missing from Real Time Trains yet. Don't work on Local ECS and shunt moves or Platform allocations just yet as these are tidied up later as the priority is to have the trains themselves and which are in the public domain uploaded first and by 12 weeks ahead..

 

[TDK]

I have been advised by a colleague that open trains times on May 18th,still have the 0747 Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Birmingham remaining in the system.
This is the first bit of good news,although the information is provisional,the ATW consultative document to stakeholders will confirm,when it arrives.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WRX/2015/05/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

If in fact this service is "temporarily" saved (if it is) "MAY BE" down to the availability of the coaching stock for the extra planned loco hauled service and nothing to do with passenger or union protest?

 

[merlodlliw]

Trains available in the National Rail Booking Engine are only available as yet to 12 May. Real Time Trains is working on 3 Calender months prior to Timetable Date but the Booking Engine works on 12 actual weeks. There is a Heart of Wales train missing from Real Time Trains yet. Don't work on Local ECS and shunt moves or Platform allocations just yet as these are tidied up later as the priority is to have the trains themselves and which are in the public domain uploaded first and by 12 weeks ahead..

The 0747 was first removed from RTT, now its back,the consultative document will tell us everything next month.However its good news.

The three stops have also been removed from Gerald,Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen
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If in fact this service is "temporarily" saved (if it is) "MAY BE" down to the availability of the coaching stock for the extra planned loco hauled service and nothing to do with passenger or union protest?

I get the feel without passenger protest, it would have been lost,ATW Media spin last year was giving Gerald stopping between Wrexham & Salop,so it was on the cards,not sure how much RMT helped in all of this.

Ill be intrigued to see where ATW have got a spare 158 from for the Cambrian,if in fact the 0747 is safe for another six months. We generated a lot of support from Press/radio/tv MEPs/MPs/AMs and County Councils from both sides of the border.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If in fact this service is "temporarily" saved (if it is) "MAY BE" down to the availability of the coaching stock for the extra planned loco hauled service and nothing to do with passenger or union protest?

Is this a third LHCS your referring too? Second set has been running since December.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have been advised by a colleague that open trains times on May 18th,still have the 0747 Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Birmingham remaining in the system.
This is the first bit of good news,although the information is provisional,the ATW consultative document to stakeholders will confirm,when it arrives.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WRX/2015/05/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Spotting some changes here and there elsewhere will wait till I've worked them all through.

 

[merlodlliw]

[

QUOTE=Gareth Marston;2081361]Is this a third LHCS your referring too? Second set has been running since December.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Spotting some changes here and there elsewhere will wait till I've worked them all through.

[/QUOTE]

No third ATW LHCS set in the thought train as yet,

Thanks for the check,the juggle of services,if correct,will be interesting.

 

[PHILIPE]

Present status of RTT should be more reliable next week. 07 47 Wrexham attach to train ex Crewe as now and 06 30 ex Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (originally intended to attach to Crewe) shunts at Shrewsbury and attaches to 07 30 ex Aberystwyth to Birmingham Intl (? 6 cars). I think the key will be 06 40 ex Crewe. Wait for RTT at 12 weeks before start.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Present status of RTT should be more reliable next week. 07 47 Wrexham attach to train ex Crewe as now and 06 30 ex Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (originally intended to attach to Crewe) shunts at Shrewsbury and attaches to 07 30 ex Aberystwyth to Birmingham Intl (? 6 cars). I think the key will be 06 40 ex Crewe. Wait for RTT at 12 weeks before start.

Agree there's still some loose ends. 0530 from ABR is down to arrive in Platform 5 a couple of minutes after an ECS move into it, doesn't appear to join up with 0640 ex Crewe. Six units end night at Mach, 2 at Pwllheli. Haven't had much time to browse elsewhere.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Many instances of this are for operating convenience , diagramming purposes for one, and not for the benefit of passengers.

Indeed, passengers can be such an unwanted matter of consideration where rail provision is concerned. That George Stephenson has an awful lot to answer for with his obsession of passenger travel by rail...

 

[krus_aragon]

Indeed, passengers can be such an unwanted matter of consideration where rail provision is concerned. That George Stephenson has an awful lot to answer for with his obsession of passenger travel by rail...

Even William Huskisson's best attempts to dissuade us seemed fruitless...

 

[merlodlliw]

Indeed, passengers can be such an unwanted matter of consideration where rail provision is concerned. That George Stephenson has an awful lot to answer for with his obsession of passenger travel by rail...

Indeed, our obsession follows in Georges footsteps, I fully agree next week national rail will tell us everything, but ATW have been known to drag feet.
It appears the paymaster WG, wants to retain the 0747,according to AMs,she appears embarrassed with the redouble fiasco ,let alone having services axed in the highest populated section of North East Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed, our obsession follows in Georges footsteps, I fully agree next week national rail will tell us everything, but ATW have been known to drag feet.
It appears the paymaster WG, wants to retain the 0747,according to AMs,she appears embarrassed with the redouble fiasco ,let alone having services axed in the highest populated section of North East Wales.

Don't mention Not For Profit

 

[merlodlliw]

Don't mention Not For Profit

We are on our best behavior,and while we have a few irons in the fire,I would not dream of mentioning N F P.
My local Constituency AM,Clwyd South,Ken Skates,a junior Minister is a supporter of N F P, but is silent on the subject, not his portfolio.

 

[TDK]

[

No third ATW LHCS set in the thought train as yet,

Thanks for the check,the juggle of services,if correct,will be interesting.[/QUOTE]

You may find that there is a thought train of more LHCS sets