RMT join fight to save Wrexham/Birmingham service

[Clip]

Well the membership voted for him and if they are unhappy they can take him to task for it.

 

[merlodlliw]

It wasn't the wag who campaigned for an hourly Aber service is was SCRUA themselves, sorry Bob but you guys want your cake and eat it I am afraid with the RMT once again getting free advertising and recognition for something that isn't really their concern.

Sorry TDK, SCRUA (Shrewsbury,Chester rail users Assoc) have not campaigned for the Hourly Cambrian extras, SCRUA has nothing to do with the Cambrian,we do however support SARPA ( The Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth Rail Passengers Association) in its quest for better connecting services with our line.
SARPA and the Cambrian Line Liaison group are the force behind the Cambrian extras.
The RMT in joining our fight to retain services, is welcome, this came out of the blue.

 

[D1009]

The line user committee have very accurate figures.

Are you able to share them with us?

 

[merlodlliw]

Are you able to share them with us?

Not on an open website,sorry. I am sure all the data will be available when Welsh Government & ATW have come to a final decision.
I shall ask the Chairman to publish the results.
But please remember ATW have also organised their own audit using an outside consultancy, however unlike us, ATW only used the train,
Our campaign was stations and also on the train,

 

[D1009]

Not on an open website,sorry.

Why not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not?

I'm guessing they were provided as commercial in confidence, i.e. "you can have them, but only if you don't publicise them".

Neil

 

[D1009]

Sorry, he said the line user committee had very accurate figures obtained by members travelling on the train concerned, so how would that info be treated as commercial in confidence? It's not as if there was any competition involved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not on an open website,sorry. I am sure all the data will be available when Welsh Government & ATW have come to a final decision.
I shall ask the Chairman to publish the results.
But please remember ATW have also organised their own audit using an outside consultancy, however unlike us, ATW only used the train,
Our campaign was stations and also on the train,

Sorry, just seen your edited post.

 

[TDK]

Sorry TDK, SCRUA (Shrewsbury,Chester rail users Assoc) have not campaigned for the Hourly Cambrian extras, SCRUA has nothing to do with the Cambrian,we do however support SARPA ( The Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth Rail Passengers Association) in its quest for better connecting services with our line.
SARPA and the Cambrian Line Liaison group are the force behind the Cambrian extras.
The RMT in joining our fight to retain services, is welcome, this came out of the blue.

Is Gareth not a member of SCURA Bob? I must be mistaken - sorry. You could have done a lot better than getting the RMT on board - they are only after the publicity and using you as a source.

 

[Kettledrum]

So: fight to save trains should read fight to stop people having to change train and spend 15 minutes stood about at Shrewsbury?

Name the other lines in the country where that doesn't also happen? Is the changing of trains beyond the people of North Wales?

I get if you want to go from Wrexham to Birmingham for work then having to change and set off a touch earlier is a pain - but nothing more.

Sorry - this is a story about nothing.

Commuting from Wrexham to Birmingham already looks a lousy option. Even if you caught the 07.47, you don't get to Birmingham until 09.29, with a journey time of 1 hr 42, with the earlier train options requiring a change and taking longer. Yet there is plenty of employment in Telford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham, so improving the rail journey times from Wrexham would be a good economic development policy for the Welsh Government.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course, in my opinion I think the new guy in charge at the RMT are using people including their own members for recognition at any cost, not cunning but selfish and un-necessary I am glad I am not an RMT member that's for sure.

the memebers voted for him............

 

[kieron]

No where else in Wales for sure. It works like this from May.

I believe you are mistaken even in this.

In the last timetable change, Shotton lost a number of direct trains to Warrington and Manchester, getting a few extra direct trains to/from Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Birmingham or Cardiff at irregular intervals in exchange.

As with the change you mentioned for Wrexham passengers, this was done as part of another change, rather than because they felt it would improve things for people at that station. In this case, it is because ATW have decided not to stop any loco-hauled trains at Shotton for some reason.

 

[313103]

Is Gareth not a member of SCURA Bob? I must be mistaken - sorry. You could have done a lot better than getting the RMT on board - they are only after the publicity and using you as a source.

Seems that every comment you have made in this thread has been against the RMT! Why you got a grudge against them?

If what you have said so far is true I would like for you to back this up with some evidence.

I doubt you will get it so i am not expecting you to reply maybe then to castigate the union again!

 

[berneyarms]

I believe you are mistaken even in this.

In the last timetable change, Shotton lost a number of direct trains to Warrington and Manchester, getting a few extra direct trains to/from Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Birmingham or Cardiff at irregular intervals in exchange.

As with the change you mentioned for Wrexham passengers, this was done as part of another change, rather than because they felt it would improve things for people at that station. In this case, it is because ATW have decided not to stop any loco-hauled trains at Shotton for some reason.

As I posted in the Wrexham Redouble thread, I suspect Llandudno would be a prime candidate for losing more trains!

 

[TDK]

Seems that every comment you have made in this thread has been against the RMT! Why you got a grudge against them?

If what you have said so far is true I would like for you to back this up with some evidence.

I doubt you will get it so i am not expecting you to reply maybe then to castigate the union again!

1. The RMT recommended that ATW Guards strike for something that they could never overturn when the majority were in 2 minds but took the RMT's advice and carried out with the strike losing money - no result and no communication from the RMT - was a political way to give the RMT publicity for their new leader.

2. RMT promised to help the staff of WSMR when they folded - they managed a lot of publicity and did nothing.

there are 2 for a start - sorry but the RMT are just a poor union

 

[krus_aragon]

I've sulkily decided that I'm going to add my own rant to this thread.

A little over a year ago, I was working in a school in Bangor, and commuting from the Colwyn Bay area on a daily basis by train. The school day started at ten to nine, so the 0838 arrival into Bangor would be playing it dangerous if there were any delay. Not to worry, I can take the first train of the morning, an hour earlier, to get me to Bangor for 0750. I'll be three quarters of an hour early, but that's life with an hourly train service, and I can do some preparation and marking work.

Heading home, the trains run at roughly 1510, 1620, 1720, and 1810. Some schools finish at three so the kids can catch the train home, but mine's still going until half past three. And staff don't get away that early, anyhow. So I'll have another forty minutes of waiting time for the 1620. I may as well try and be productive and do some more prep work.

But in 2012, Arriva had introduced an extra return service between Llandudno Jn and Chester in the afternoon, to reduct peak overcrowding. It leaves the Junction at 1625, and runs just ahead of the service from Bangor. Great news, eh? It would be, but now the train from Bangor runs non-stop between the Junction and Chester, so I can't get off at Colwyn Bay. I have to change at the Junction for the next ex-Llandudno service, half an hour later. Hm, half an hour sat in the waiting room at Llandudno Junction? I think I'll just wait in Bangor until the 1720 instead: I'd rather stay behind at the school (for an hour and three quarters now). That has me leaving the house around 0650 to catch my bus and not getting home until 1815, two and three quarter hours after school finished. (Or home by 1805 by leaving Bangor on the 1625 service.)

Looking forward to the 2014 timetable change, things are looking up! I see on OpenTrainTimes that the peak relief stopper will be been retimed: it will now leave the Junction after the 1620 service from Bangor, so I can connect on that and be home from school in time for tea. But no, it seems that I counted my chickens before they hatched. When the timetable is finalised, the stopper is running ahead of the Bangor train again, so I'm back to the 1720 service again. Oh, and now the 1810 also runs fast from the Junction to Chester, so on the one night a week I have to stay late for a staff meeting, I will need to change trains. Thankfully there's a following stopper leaving ten minutes later, but it means that I now get back to Colwyn Bay just after my bus service's frequency drops off for the night, so I get to stand around at Colwyn Bay for 25 minutes now. Home by 1930. I can pop my dinner in the microwave.


------


So what do I think you readers should take from this? Perhaps that leaving for your morning commute 15 minutes earlier and changing en-route to arrive at the same time is not that great a hardship by comparison. Or perhaps you note that a small change to a railway timetable can have greater consequences for people depending on connecting bus services. Or that there are always winners and losers in every situation, and you'll never please everyone. Then again, you might feel that I'm a great big fusspot.

Either way, the above experience colours my reaction to the Wrexham protests significantly.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

A very succinct and pertinent response, Krus Aragon. Having followed this thread I must admit to having similar feelings regarding the 15 minutes earlier start for a handful of Wrexham commuters. Assuming that a timetable change is generally an improvement for the overall service in a particular area, there is, surely, always a few people who feel that they have lost out.

 

[PHILIPE]

In the December Timetable, included in with the North Wales Coast alterations, it crept in that the 05 30 Aberystwyth to Birmingham Int would become 6 carriages from Shrewsbury. Was this additional deployment of a 158 really essential when there are problems with resourcing the 07 47 from Wrexham in May.
However, the additional unit is formed off a 06 45 from Crewe and becoming a through portion. At the present time this could have been covered by the Salop/Crewe local 153 but as from May, this 153 will be utilised by the additional HOWL service from Llandrindod Wells.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A very succinct and pertinent response, Krus Aragon. Having followed this thread I must admit to having similar feelings regarding the 15 minutes earlier start for a handful of Wrexham commuters. Assuming that a timetable change is generally an improvement for the overall service in a particular area, there is, surely, always a few people who feel that they have lost out.

Kris Aragon does not mention other commuters on his trains, it might be that only he is effected then again the entire N Wales Coast, Chester to Shrewsbury and Marches tt's are a complete pigs breakfast now.

On what basis do you say "handful of Wrexham commuters" what is a handful and what's your source?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the December Timetable, included in with the North Wales Coast alterations, it crept in that the 05 30 Aberystwyth to Birmingham Int would become 6 carriages from Shrewsbury. Was this additional deployment of a 158 really essential when there are problems with resourcing the 07 47 from Wrexham in May.
However, the additional unit is formed off a 06 45 from Crewe and becoming a through portion. At the present time this could have been covered by the Salop/Crewe local 153 but as from May, this 153 will be utilised by the additional HOWL service from Llandrindod Wells.

The 0733 ATW off Shrewsbury was 2 car only one day earlier this week "hundreds" left on platform at a Telford by some pretty irate reports I've seen.

 

[D1009]

On what basis do you say "handful of Wrexham commuters" what is a handful and what's your source?

Up thread I asked for this number to be quantified to further inform the debate, but despite the availability of very accurate figures, no-one is prepared to share them with us.

My own opinion is that the alterations which have been made will benefit the majority of rail users in Wales, but as has been pointed out there will always be some losers.

 

[Tracky]

The Welsh Government and various user groups are, as always, asking ATW train planners to work miracles squeezing more capacity out of a very stretched fleet.

Within the next few years, all the morning and evening peak Shrewsbury-Birmingham services will need six coaches and something will have to happen in North Wales.

Hopefully the Liverpool Manchester electrification will mean better Northern services to take some heat off ATW services between Earlestown, Newton le Willows and Manchester.

Personally, I believe, Holyhead Cardiff should go hourly, with every other being a limited stops loco hauled express train. The Holyhead-Birmingham could then be cut back to Chester and run as a four car throughout (strengthened to six for between shrewsbury). The extra services from Aber could be pathed nicely up to Crewe calling at Wem Whitchurch and Nantwich leaving the Manchester - South Wales trains to go back to being flyers.

Would it satisfy all the public, user groups and the politicians, probably not. It would also cost money.

 

[berneyarms]

Up thread I asked for this number to be quantified to further inform the debate, but despite the availability of very accurate figures, no-one is prepared to share them with us.

My own opinion is that the alterations which have been made will benefit the majority of rail users in Wales, but as has been pointed out there will always be some losers.

The key figure here is the number of people boarding before Shrewsbury and staying on board to beyond Shrewsbury.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The key figure here is the number of people boarding before Shrewsbury and staying on board to beyond Shrewsbury.

Which none of the posters claiming hardly anyone is effected have!

When ATW first proposed their Standard Pattern Timetable (remember that) they wanted to cut the morning commuter short run from Machynlleth into Aberystwyth which had been running for over a century and replace it with a train that came through from Birmingham but arrived at 0920 and fitted in with a pretty two hour cycle. I did head accounts and surveys on it and local staff at Mach fought for its retention. We managed to keep it. The numbers on it at the time are less than the 0747 from Wrexham going beyond Salop now.

SCRUA and other concerned parts in NE Wales and incredibly as no one seems to have mentioned NW Shropshire who use Gobowen have their reasons to keep the figures confidential. ATW have done a head count and the bun fight with the Minister will be about whose figures are more credible. SCRUA have some witness statement type quotes from those likely to be effected.

 

[Tracky]

The key figure here is the number of people boarding before Shrewsbury and staying on board to beyond Shrewsbury.

I guess the key figure really, is the number of rail users ATW/WG/Cambrian user group expect to gain by having the additional service from Aberywstwyth (making it hourly) set against those who will decide not to travel (to travel by an alternative form of transport) rather than use the earlier train from Wrexham, Ruabon, Chirk and Gobowen...

 

[merlodlliw]

The Welsh Government and various user groups are, as always, asking ATW train planners to work miracles squeezing more capacity out of a very stretched fleet.

Within the next few years, all the morning and evening peak Shrewsbury-Birmingham services will need six coaches and something will have to happen in North Wales.

Hopefully the Liverpool Manchester electrification will mean better Northern services to take some heat off ATW services between Earlestown, Newton le Willows and Manchester.

Personally, I believe, Holyhead Cardiff should go hourly, with every other being a limited stops loco hauled express train. The Holyhead-Birmingham could then be cut back to Chester and run as a four car throughout (strengthened to six for between shrewsbury). The extra services from Aber could be pathed nicely up to Crewe calling at Wem Whitchurch and Nantwich leaving the Manchester - South Wales trains to go back to being flyers.

Would it satisfy all the public, user groups and the politicians, probably not. It would also cost money.

The Minister when signing off the Extra Cambrians,tells my AM, she was never told by ATW they would require unit from from another line,thus cancelling a service, ATW maintained they had sufficient stock, which is now under scrutiny by Welsh Government.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Welsh Government and various user groups are, as always, asking ATW train planners to work miracles squeezing more capacity out of a very stretched fleet.

Within the next few years, all the morning and evening peak Shrewsbury-Birmingham services will need six coaches and something will have to happen in North Wales.

Hopefully the Liverpool Manchester electrification will mean better Northern services to take some heat off ATW services between Earlestown, Newton le Willows and Manchester.

Personally, I believe, Holyhead Cardiff should go hourly, with every other being a limited stops loco hauled express train. The Holyhead-Birmingham could then be cut back to Chester and run as a four car throughout (strengthened to six for between shrewsbury). The extra services from Aber could be pathed nicely up to Crewe calling at Wem Whitchurch and Nantwich leaving the Manchester - South Wales trains to go back to being flyers.

Would it satisfy all the public, user groups and the politicians, probably not. It would also cost money.

You seem to be the only person except for some in the Welsh Government advocating for trains between Cardiff and Holyhead. How would get the resources to extend the additional Cambrians to Crewe. This has been discussed previously on the Forum where people had to be convinced there would be no resources to extend to Crewe. Posters often come to the Forum proposing this and that with out saying where any additional units would come from to back up their suggestions.

 

[Phil from Mon]

You seem to be the only person except for some in the Welsh Government advocating for trains between Cardiff and Holyhead. How would get the resources to extend the additional Cambrians to Crewe. This has been discussed previously on the Forum where people had to be convinced there would be no resources to extend to Crewe. Posters often come to the Forum proposing this and that with out saying where any additional units would come from to back up their suggestions.

Tracky is certainly not the only one pressing the case for Holyhead - Cardiff, as I have made clear in this and several other threads.

One thing that has not come out in any of these discussions, so far as I am aware, (and it also touches on the connections from the Cambrian line to Cardiff) is that it is clear WG policy to increase connectivity between all parts of Wales, and in particular between the North and the South. Historically, North Wales has looked to merseyside and Manchester, and mid Wales to Birminghma etc, and certainly the North has never been particularly well connected to the south, mainly due to the mountains, and the East-west direction of the main road and rail links. WG are thinking to alter this, and I think, although this is my supposition, to change the perception in the North that we are remote and distant from decision-making from and the capital.

 

[Greenback]

WG policy is all very well, and I agree with it to some extent, but there are reasons why north Wales has looked to Merseyside and Manchester, while mid Wales has looked towards Birmingham and the Midlands, and it's largely down to geography.

Yes, devolution has increased the importance of Cardiff, and I do agree that connectivity should be better now and in the future compared to how it used to be. The trick is finding the right balance, and I don;t think we have as things stand.

I'm neutral on this particular issue, as I can see both sides. However, I'm interested in whether ATW have gone back on their promise that they could operate more services on the Cambrian Line without using any from other lines, or whether they simply meant that they could re-jig their diagrams in this way so as to avoid having to have more stock on their books overall.

 

[merlodlliw]

Tracky is certainly not the only one pressing the case for Holyhead - Cardiff, as I have made clear in this and several other threads.

One thing that has not come out in any of these discussions, so far as I am aware, (and it also touches on the connections from the Cambrian line to Cardiff) is that it is clear WG policy to increase connectivity between all parts of Wales, and in particular between the North and the South. Historically, North Wales has looked to merseyside and Manchester, and mid Wales to Birminghma etc, and certainly the North has never been particularly well connected to the south, mainly due to the mountains, and the East-west direction of the main road and rail links. WG are thinking to alter this, and I think, although this is my supposition, to change the perception in the North that we are remote and distant from decision-making from and the capital.

Thats fine if you work within the statutory sector,but people in North East Wales will always look to the North West of England for work and pleasure,plus those within the Cambrian look towards the Midlands,having more trains between Cardiff & Holyhead, does not mean more people will travel from say Wrexham to Cardiff,why should they.
I dont see people up here travelling to Cardiff for work, unless you are an AM.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

On what basis do you say "handful of Wrexham commuters" what is a handful and what's your source?
.

I think that D1009 has answered for me, I can only go on what I read here, and if the information is not made available then I can make my own judgement. In the same way, I have to trust the figures that you present for extra Cambrian services.
A handful...could be five, could be thirty...don't know until the figures are put up!

 

[merlodlliw]

A very succinct and pertinent response, Krus Aragon. Having followed this thread I must admit to having similar feelings regarding the 15 minutes earlier start for a handful of Wrexham commuters. Assuming that a timetable change is generally an improvement for the overall service in a particular area, there is, surely, always a few people who feel that they have lost out.

It is not only Wrexham commuters who use the train, between 50 & 60 sometimes more board at Gobowen,which is large catchment area for North North Montgomery & Oswestry areas.