RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[kw12]

It would. And the need for station staff will reduce with more online sales and the likely introduction of contactless etc.

TBH, I would trade ticket office staff for a TVM that did TOD. I'm sure many others would too.

Merseyrail's Concession Agreement with Merseytravel states (in section 6 of Appendix A of Schedule 18 (Customer Service Regime)) that:

"All ticket offices at all Stations (other than Unstaffed and Ellesmere Port Station) should be staffed from 15 minutes before the scheduled time of the first First Train to 15 minutes after the actual departure time of the last Train or replacement service, seven days per week."

Thus, Merseyrail can not reduce the ticket office opening hours without either breaking its Concession Agreement or getting Merseytravel to agree to a contract amendment. Any Merseytravel agreement to a contract amendment for this would presumably include an adjustment to the amount of the Contract Payment, and any such adjustment may well equal (or even exceed) the savings from reducing the ticket office opening hours.

 

[Chester1]

Merseyrail's Concession Agreement with Merseytravel states (in section 6 of Appendix A of Schedule 18 (Customer Service Regime)) that:

"All ticket offices at all Stations (other than Unstaffed and Ellesmere Port Station) should be staffed from 15 minutes before the scheduled time of the first First Train to 15 minutes after the actual departure time of the last Train or replacement service, seven days per week."

Thus, Merseyrail can not reduce the ticket office opening hours without either breaking its Concession Agreement or getting Merseytravel to agree to a contract amendment. Any Merseytravel agreement to a contract amendment for this would presumably include an adjustment to the amount of the Contract Payment, and any such adjustment may well equal (or even exceed) the savings from reducing the ticket office opening hours.

Franchise and concession agreements are not set in stone! If its part of a deal that ends the dispute then Merseytravel would be likely to rubber stamp amendments if the agreement is on basis that it does not increase or decrease Merseyrail profits. Replacing station staff with TVMs is the obvious alternative way of funding the new trains and strengthens the case for having a second member of staff onboard for when TVMs are out of service or not adequate. Id prefer DOO and station staff but the reverse is a reasonable compromise. Merseyrail is overstaffed for a metro system and needs costs cutting but doesn't need zero contact between staff and passengers. Local ownership of the new fleet is also an essential part of reducing costs.

 

[Dave1987]

Franchise and concession agreements are not set in stone! If its part of a deal that ends the dispute then Merseytravel would be likely to rubber stamp amendments if the agreement is on basis that it does not increase or decrease Merseyrail profits. Replacing station staff with TVMs is the obvious alternative way of funding the new trains and strengthens the case for having a second member of staff onboard for when TVMs are out of service or not adequate. Id prefer DOO and station staff but the reverse is a reasonable compromise. Merseyrail is overstaffed for a metro system and needs costs cutting but doesn't need zero contact between staff and passengers. Local ownership of the new fleet is also an essential part of reducing costs.

Are costs being cut? Seems that instead of keeping money in the local economy through wages the money will now being going to Switzerland to Stadler to pay for the trains. I thought it was said to afford new trains they had to cut staff numbers.

 

[Chester1]

Are costs being cut? Seems that instead of keeping money in the local economy through wages the money will now being going to Switzerland to Stadler to pay for the trains. I thought it was said to afford new trains they had to cut staff numbers.

New trains should hopefully be cheaper to maintain than ageing units and the ROSCOs share of profit will be removed, so costs should drop in the long term but it will take a very long time to pay off the loans for buying the new fleet. As we have argued about before the railways aren't a job creation program. Merseytravel should make sure people don't lose their employment or pay grade but they have no obligation to keep staffing levels as they are now or maintain current job roles. You could use the Switzerland argument for buying anything from outside the UK or even local area.

 

[mmh]

Merseytravel should make sure people don't lose their employment or pay grade but they have no obligation to keep staffing levels as they are now

Apart from writing into their conditions that stations have to be staffed exactly as they are now, and repeatedly saying they're not going to change that. They have created the obligation!

"How accessible will the new trains be?
Merseyrail will be one of the most accessible networks in the UK with the introduction of unassisted access at stations and will also be fully compliant with all regulations. There will be a lot more information screens and clear public addresses to assist passengers with learning difficulties or visual impairments. Merseyrail will remain one of the most staffed networks in the UK and help will still be available from staff at stations."

 

[Clip]

Are costs being cut? Seems that instead of keeping money in the local economy through wages the money will now being going to Switzerland to Stadler to pay for the trains. I thought it was said to afford new trains they had to cut staff numbers.

It wasnt said - what they said was that they wouldnt be hiring new staff to the onboard role of guard and those who remained with the company would be found jobs elsewhere - thus retaining the money in the local economy which you keep harping on about.

 

[Clip]

It would. And the need for station staff will reduce with more online sales and the likely introduction of contactless etc.

Yet with TOD available across the whole(?) of the LO network they still manage to staff their stations so I'm not sure you are correct with your assertion

 

[Class83]

Currently Merseytravel concessionary passes include Merseyrail. However, the NCTS only mandates bus travel, an annual trio rail/bus/ferry ticket is £1341 an annual solo ticket is £668, now I know the passes are sort of off peak (after 0930 but no PM restriction) but even so they're offering probably £500 worth of free travel they're not legally required to. They could charge £20/month if you want the rail travel in addition to bus travel as one option to raise revenue. Merseytravel also offer the passes at 60 when they're only required to offer then at state pension age.

Increasing 'regulated fares' by more than the national formula would be difficult I imagine. I'm not sure how many 'unregulated fares' Merseyrail have.

For cost cutting, move most ticket offices to 1 shift in the morning, install TVMs and the ticket office staff can be redeployed as on board supervisors.

 

[Chester1]

Apart from writing into their conditions that stations have to be staffed exactly as they are now, and repeatedly saying they're not going to change that. They have created the obligation!

"How accessible will the new trains be?
Merseyrail will be one of the most accessible networks in the UK with the introduction of unassisted access at stations and will also be fully compliant with all regulations. There will be a lot more information screens and clear public addresses to assist passengers with learning difficulties or visual impairments. Merseyrail will remain one of the most staffed networks in the UK and help will still be available from staff at stations."

The rumours seem to indicate they are prepared to alter that agreement in order to get a deal with the RMT over DOO while also making sufficient reductions to the payroll to be able to buy rather than lease the new fleet. Something has to give and I doubt it will be Merseytravel dropping its very long-term goal of owning the Merseyrail fleet or the RMT accepting DOO. Its debatable whether reducing station staff but having a OBS on every single service actually reduces accessibility vs the conncession agreement.

 

[Goldfish62]

New trains should hopefully be cheaper to maintain than ageing units and the ROSCOs share of profit will be removed, so costs should drop in the long term but it will take a very long time to pay off the loans for buying the new fleet. As we have argued about before the railways aren't a job creation program. Merseytravel should make sure people don't lose their employment or pay grade but they have no obligation to keep staffing levels as they are now or maintain current job roles. You could use the Switzerland argument for buying anything from outside the UK or even local area.

Quite. My car is French and I'm typing this on a mobile made in South Korea.

 

[Camden]

The rumours seem to indicate they are prepared to alter that agreement in order to get a deal with the RMT over DOO while also making sufficient reductions to the payroll to be able to buy rather than lease the new fleet. Something has to give and I doubt it will be Merseytravel dropping its very long-term goal of owning the Merseyrail fleet or the RMT accepting DOO. Its debatable whether reducing station staff but having a OBS on every single service actually reduces accessibility vs the conncession agreement.

The financials and nature of the train deal cannot be dropped or changed. It's long since signed, including that it was done under the watch of some of the politico types who are now claiming to support the union. The trains are under construction.

The only thing that can realistically change for every train journey to run double staffed is a) for fares to go up and b) the level of services to be held back, since any new or increased frequency service may add to staffing pressures.

The trains will arrive in just over a year's time replete with all the tech necessary to run DCO. Should that sit idle, just to give people jobs that have no need to exist? When the local transport authority has said that if the money was available the roles would not be what they would be looking to spend that money on, such is their needlessness?

I think it should be fairly straightforward to let the season ticket holders decide whether they are happy to pay the price required, via an online "referendum". I say see what they think about paying more and receiving less, for no good reason.

The time for complaining about the nature of these trains was ages before the order was placed, but I don't recall hearing such disquiet in Liverpool at that time.​

 

[northwichcat]

b) the level of services to be held back, since any new or increased frequency service may add to staffing pressures.

I don't think that will have any effect. The initial order for new trains is for fewer sets than Merseyrail have at present (they say better reliability of new trains will mean the same level of service can be provided using fewer sets), with an option to acquire more if the Merseyrail network expands.

The time for complaining about the nature of these trains was ages before the order was placed, but I don't recall hearing such disquiet in Liverpool at that time.

Indeed. The local media initially reported the new trains won't have guards the only fuss made was by the RMT, not by passengers, MPs, local councillors from the opposition parties etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

The financials and nature of the train deal cannot be dropped or changed. It's long since signed, including that it was done under the watch of some of the politico types who are now claiming to support the union. The trains are under construction.

The only thing that can realistically change for every train journey to run double staffed is a) for fares to go up and b) the level of services to be held back, since any new or increased frequency service may add to staffing pressures.

The trains will arrive in just over a year's time replete with all the tech necessary to run DCO. Should that sit idle, just to give people jobs that have no need to exist? When the local transport authority has said that if the money was available the roles would not be what they would be looking to spend that money on, such is their needlessness?

I think it should be fairly straightforward to let the season ticket holders decide whether they are happy to pay the price required, via an online "referendum". I say see what they think about paying more and receiving less, for no good reason.

The time for complaining about the nature of these trains was ages before the order was placed, but I don't recall hearing such disquiet in Liverpool at that time.​

There are of course other options for the local authority to balance the books if the cost of running Merseyrail goes above budget, such as cutting supported bus services, adult social care or the education budget. What price are people willing to pay for keeping guards?

 

[Carlisle]

The financials and nature of the train deal cannot be dropped or changed. It's long since signed, including that it was done under the watch of some of the politico types who are now claiming to support the union. The trains are under construction.

The only thing that can realistically change for every train journey to run double staffed is a) for fares to go up and b) the level of services to be held back, since any new or increased frequency service may add to staffing pressures.

The trains will arrive in just over a year's time replete with all the tech necessary to run DCO. Should that sit idle, just to give people jobs that have no need to exist? When the local transport authority has said that if the money was available the roles would not be what they would be looking to spend that money on, such is their needlessness?

I think it should be fairly straightforward to let the season ticket holders decide whether they are happy to pay the price required, via an online "referendum". I say see what they think about paying more and receiving less, for no good reason.

The time for complaining about the nature of these trains was ages before the order was placed, but I don't recall hearing such disquiet in Liverpool at that time.​

I agree, it seems the RMT have clearly been effective in presuading some senior presumably labour politicians with some influence/control in this whole scheme to at least tacitly support their position, as since the decision was made on the new train order in 2016! Merseytravel have been adamant that only after very detailed, careful and prolonged consideration had it been decided the plans they announced offered the best value all round.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The rumours seem to indicate they are prepared to alter that agreement in order to get a deal with the RMT over DOO while also making sufficient reductions to the payroll to be able to buy rather than lease the new fleet. Something has to give and I doubt it will be Merseytravel dropping its very long-term goal of owning the Merseyrail fleet or the RMT accepting DOO. Its debatable whether reducing station staff but having a OBS on every single service actually reduces accessibility vs the conncession agreement.

It very much doesn’t, because other than central Liverpool there are no platform staff. Assistance is provided by guards.

 

[mmh]

It very much doesn’t, because other than central Liverpool there are no platform staff. Assistance is provided by guards.

That's not true, the ticket office staff do. For example, the trains don't carry ramps, they're on the stations.

https://www.merseyrail.org/media/677504/mr0257_olderpeople_booklet_aw_v2.pdf

"Assistance at staffed stations
Our station staff will provide assistance for you at stations including
help with boarding and alighting between the platform and train
and entering and leaving the station."

 

[jamesst]

There's one ramp on every train for use in the event of station staff for whatever reason not being able to meet the train. They can be and are used.

That's not true, the ticket office staff do. For example, the trains don't carry ramps, they're on the stations.

https://www.merseyrail.org/media/677504/mr0257_olderpeople_booklet_aw_v2.pdf

"Assistance at staffed stations
Our station staff will provide assistance for you at stations including
help with boarding and alighting between the platform and train
and entering and leaving the station."

 

[shakey1961]

I have noticed recently theer have been other strikes planend (and taken place) with other ROCs but with the notable exception of Merseyrail. Does anyone have an update on the dispute? Must be some progerss being made if the Merseyrail union's are not walking out.

 

[northwichcat]

I have noticed recently theer have been other strikes planend (and taken place) with other ROCs but with the notable exception of Merseyrail. Does anyone have an update on the dispute? Must be some progerss being made if the Merseyrail union's are not walking out.

The dispute has been referred to ACAS.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

And also see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rmt-dispute-on-merseyrail.142573/page-58#post-3408150 (i.e post 1714 on the previous page)

 

[Domh245]

I had seen it reported by Tony Miles that part of the reason that Merseyrail have started to back down from DOO was "partly due to the realisation that the proposed method of operation in DCO mode would never be sanctioned by ORR/RSSB" - make of that what you will.

 

[Chester1]

I had seen it reported by Tony Miles that part of the reason that Merseyrail have started to back down from DOO was "partly due to the realisation that the proposed method of operation in DCO mode would never be sanctioned by ORR/RSSB" - make of that what you will.

Thats really odd! What aspect of DOO? This dispute does seem to be heading towards a Strathclyde style agreement and the new fleet being paid for by a massive reduction in station staff through natural wastage and voluntary redundancy. It would be a fair compromise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had seen it reported by Tony Miles that part of the reason that Merseyrail have started to back down from DOO was "partly due to the realisation that the proposed method of operation in DCO mode would never be sanctioned by ORR/RSSB" - make of that what you will.

In what way wouldn't it? Thameslink is DOO, all of LU is DOO. What's different?

But realistically...roll out Walrus properly, and credit/debit card contactless payment London style (i.e. tap in and out), and cash/card TVMs with TOD, and I doubt you'd get many passenger complaints about station destaffing[1] at all. Most Merseyrail station staff provide no passenger safety benefit because most of the ticket offices are well away from the platforms. Just about all they can realistically do is watch the CCTV and call the Police if there is a problem, and that can be done by a central CCTV control centre.

You could probably even make them card-only TVMs if a deal was done with Paypoint/Payzone for charging Walrus cards with cash at newsagents, London style.

Remember Metrolink is DOO with no station staff whatsoever, and passengers aren't exactly deserting it in droves.

[1] Particularly not if there are no compulsory redundancies - just run a policy that no ticket office staff will be replaced, and that shift closes when they leave.

 

[Domh245]

He didn't say and I've no way of knowing, and to be honest I expect that we won't find out unless someone leaks it. Perhaps they were proposing DOO as well as unstaffed stations (but then again, LU has that in spades now), or maybe something else.

 

[Andrew32]

I have noticed recently theer have been other strikes planend (and taken place) with other ROCs but with the notable exception of Merseyrail. Does anyone have an update on the dispute? Must be some progerss being made if the Merseyrail union's are not walking out.

More talks on 17th May, then 6th June.

 

[kw12]

More talks on 17th May, then 6th June.

Any news from today's talks?

 

[Andrew32]

ACAS Joint Statement
Tuesday 05th June

Following further discussions facilitated by ACAS, RMT and Merseyrail have agreed to more detailed analysis, through a number of workshops over the next two weeks, looking at how a second person could be funded on all of the new trains. Talks remain confidential and a further meeting is planned for 04th July when both parties will work together to finalise the outputs and agree the way forward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OBS and closed ticket offices then...

 

[Carlisle]

OBS and closed ticket offices then...

Yes looks like it , however the RMT supposedly signed up to these talks on the pretext the outcome may not include a second safer critical person on every train, but doesn’t actually appear at any point during the talks process to have dropped that red line so it suggests Merseyrail are pretty desperate for a deal and the RMT are well aware of it .

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH that may not be all that bad a plan.

Staffed ticket offices on Merseyrail provide relatively little benefit - they don't do anything a TVM doesn't - at most stations they aren't even anywhere near the platform to provide a security benefit. If said TVMs came with ToD I think people would be very happy with that solution generally.

If you added touch in and out contactless for local journeys that would complete a more than acceptable package in my eyes.

If they want to avoid more hassle, they could follow a similar path to the plan for guards - just stop recruiting ticket office staff and close ticket offices progressively as the staff retire or leave.

You could even have the OBSs able to sell tickets on board at some kind of supplement (which would feel much friendlier than the whole zero-tolerance penalty fares thing). A way to do this legally would be to create a slightly discounted Anytime day ticket to go with the off peak ones and sell only undiscounted Anytime Day Singles on board (I don't believe there is any obligation to sell Anytime Day Returns on board, and at £5.85 a pop that makes a return from Aughton Park to Liverpool cost a hefty £11.70 against the Anytime Day Return of £6.15).