RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Pyreneenguy]

There has been a lot of debate on this one, there are probably two approaches. One is that there will still be jobs to do - people like value added human interaction. The other is that you tax automated productivity instead of work, and you move towards the likes of Universal Basic Income.

The move towards some form of Universal Basic Income is -probably- inevitable. The big problem will be escaping from it's grasp. People born into the system will have little or no hope of ever bettering their situation which could result in dramatic consequences. What will be the point in educating people to a high level if their talents and skills are unneeded ? Those in highly paid jobs and those that possess capital , will, like today pay obscene amounts to educate their offspring in elitist private / Public schools, the 'old boys network' will do the rest.

 

[trainophile]

The problem is that the people at the top of the pile want to use the technological cost saving measures to become ever richer, not so their cash can be diverted elsewhere to support people who are no longer required. The time is going to come, sooner than many think, that we are going to need a massive discussion about how and why we do things and what people are worth.

The biggest growth sector is likely to be caring for the elderly, either in their own homes or in institutional establishments. That will never be done by robots... I hope!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that the people at the top of the pile want to use the technological cost saving measures to become ever richer, not so their cash can be diverted elsewhere to support people who are no longer required.

In business perhaps, but that isn’t really applicable to local authorities.

The time is going to come, sooner than many think, that we are going to need a massive discussion about how and why we do things and what people are worth.

I do agree - things like land value and business taxes are likely to need to trump personal taxes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest growth sector is likely to be caring for the elderly, either in their own homes or in institutional establishments. That will never be done by robots... I hope!

Though what robotics may be able to do is provide improved prosthetics and the likes reducing (but not removing) the need for care.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The move towards some form of Universal Basic Income is -probably- inevitable. The big problem will be escaping from it's grasp. People born into the system will have little or no hope of ever bettering their situation which could result in dramatic consequences. What will be the point in educating people to a high level if their talents and skills are unneeded ?

The optimist’s line is that (looking at the likes of the Star Trek universe) is that people will stop working for money and start simply bettering themselves. People do that anyway, for instance I’ve completed an OU degree for no other reason than I wanted to, it is unlikely to be applicable to my career. And those who don’t want to do that we can essentially stop worrying about - they get a UBI like mine and can sit watching the telly all day with it if they wish.

Your line is more the pessimist’s. The realist probably sits in the middle somewhere.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

.

Your line is more the pessimist’s. The realist probably sits in the middle somewhere.

Well, I hope you are right, but I have my doubts !

The biggest growth sector is likely to be caring for the elderly, either in their own homes or in institutional establishments. That will never be done by robots... I hope!

I can't see carers being paid much more than UBI and for a job that has little or no job satisfaction I predict enormous problems in recruiting them in sufficient numbers !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Created a thread to discuss the post automation economy, UBI etc here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ost-automation-world-etc.162671/#post-3401648

 

[6Gman]

But that aspect would be much better provided for (and cheaper) with more contracted Byelaw officers than railway guards.

No. just no.

I've seen both this week and in a crisis I'd prefer a safety-trained Guard over the BEO who wanders* down the train occasionally asking somebody to take their feet off a seat any time.

* (Actually, "swaggers" might be a more appropriate word for some of the male BEOs)

 

[6Gman]

I can't help observing that the vast majority of people who aren't worried about the demise of guards are youngish to middle aged males, more than capable of looking after themselves in a threatening situation on board. Ask any pensioner or lone travelling female what they think, and the consensus is always that we need a second authorised member of staff on every train, not just those after 8:00 pm.

The emphasis on "safety", in this specific area, is as much personal safety while travelling as it is to do with door opening and closing operations. I understand there is a widespread drugs culture in the Merseyside area, and sadly some of the less amenable sectors of society will use the trains at all times of day. (Is that diplomatic enough?)

Very well put.

I'd also mention (again) the very many vehicle and foot crossings on parts of the Merseyrail network.

 

[185143]

No. just no.

I've seen both this week and in a crisis I'd prefer a safety-trained Guard over the BEO who wanders* down the train occasionally asking somebody to take their feet off a seat any time.

* (Actually, "swaggers" might be a more appropriate word for some of the male BEOs)

I get what you mean

I've seen situations on the network that the BEOs can easily resolve-such as the time I boarded at Hooton and two of them were dealing with 2 ticketless blokes who were drinking, smoking weed and had their feet on the seats!

Others, such as the drunk passenger at Waterloo one evening who failed spectacularly at boarding the train, fell into the carriage face first and knocked himself out were dealt with excellently by the guard. This was at the very rear of a fairly empty train, he could have been there for ages on a DOO train. He required an ambulance. This was just a few hours after I'd been on a 175 into Chester where someone accidentally operated an egress handle whilst the train was in motion, causing the train to stop and the door to pop open. A BEO would have been useless there. The delay was less than 5 minutes-the guard was on scene instantly.

I note with interest the post above saying that the people who support DOO are mostly younger men who would be able to defend themselves. A member of station staff at one of the City Centre stations, someone I didn't know either, approached me the other day personally thanking me for supporting the guards (the little yellow badge gives it away) and mentioned that not many people in my age group do. The vast majority of people I know personally and have ever spoken to are in agreement that the trains should have a second member of staff onboard.

 

[northwichcat]

And not just Merseyrail backing down, but Merseytravel backing down and making changes to their financial plans.

So cue a couple years of British Rail style 50% price hikes for fares.

The Liverpool Echo did report the RMT's response to having guards and new trains being unaffordable was "Why not make the passengers pay more then?" Nice of the RMT to claim the passengers are on their side and then stab them in the back!

 

[trainophile]

The Liverpool Echo did report the RMT's response to having guards and new trains being unaffordable was "Why not make the passengers pay more then?" Nice of the RMT to claim the passengers are on their side and then stab them in the back!

I think from what I've seen of the new trains I prefer the current ones. But I suppose if they are too old to be reliable then changing them is inevitable. Not for those much-trumpeted yellow upholstered things though!

 

[Carlisle]

I'd also mention (again) the very many vehicle and foot crossings on parts of the Merseyrail network.

Not forgetting Liverpool’s closer proximity than London to Roswell bringing an increased risk of alien abductions but seriously although I’m not arguing for lower standards here, the lines I’ve travelled in Europe carrying both DOO and guarded trains mostly aren’t fenced off at all .

 

[AntoniC]

I get what you mean

I've seen situations on the network that the BEOs can easily resolve-such as the time I boarded at Hooton and two of them were dealing with 2 ticketless blokes who were drinking, smoking weed and had their feet on the seats!

Others, such as the drunk passenger at Waterloo one evening who failed spectacularly at boarding the train, fell into the carriage face first and knocked himself out were dealt with excellently by the guard. This was at the very rear of a fairly empty train, he could have been there for ages on a DOO train. He required an ambulance. This was just a few hours after I'd been on a 175 into Chester where someone accidentally operated an egress handle whilst the train was in motion, causing the train to stop and the door to pop open. A BEO would have been useless there. The delay was less than 5 minutes-the guard was on scene instantly.

I note with interest the post above saying that the people who support DOO are mostly younger men who would be able to defend themselves. A member of station staff at one of the City Centre stations, someone I didn't know either, approached me the other day personally thanking me for supporting the guards (the little yellow badge gives it away) and mentioned that not many people in my age group do. The vast majority of people I know personally and have ever spoken to are in agreement that the trains should have a second member of staff onboard.

Every time the Guards go on strike I make an effort to walk past Southport Station and express my support for them and for fighting for what they believe in and get the bus to and from work (if its a work day despite the inconvenience to me),
Having spoken to a number of Guards they are aware that they may lose the battle, but unless they stand up and fight they will lose.

 

[B&I]

The emphasis on "safety", in this specific area, is as much personal safety while travelling as it is to do with door opening and closing operations. I understand there is a widespread drugs culture in the Merseyside area, and sadly some of the less amenable sectors of society will use the trains at all times of day. (Is that diplomatic enough?)

No more so than in most other urban areas of Britain. Generally travelling on trains around Liverpool is a much less threatening experience than travelling on them in and around London can be.

 

[northwichcat]

and get the bus to and from work (if its a work day despite the inconvenience to me),

It's all right for those who have an alternative bus option to the train. Bus services are being cut left, right and centre with lots of cuts happening around now due to the start of the new financial year. Last week my local bus station had around 6 departures an hour (Mon-Sat), on Tuesday it'll be around 3 an hour (Mon-Fri) and 2 an hour on Sat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think from what I've seen of the new trains I prefer the current ones. But I suppose if they are too old to be reliable then changing them is inevitable. Not for those much-trumpeted yellow upholstered things though!

They have a nice interior, but they do seem to suffer, like most Merseyrail stations do, with not being looked after properly and appearing more than a little scruffy.

 

[trainophile]

They have a nice interior, but they do seem to suffer, like most Merseyrail stations do, with not being looked after properly and appearing more than a little scruffy.

I'd rather have a bit scruffy than being squashed into a seat (if lucky enough to get one) by someone in an overcoat beside me, and having nowhere to put a bag of shopping.

 

[6Gman]

It's all right for those who have an alternative bus option to the train. Bus services are being cut left, right and centre with lots of cuts happening around now due to the start of the new financial year. Last week my local bus station had around 6 departures an hour (Mon-Sat), on Tuesday it'll be around 3 an hour (Mon-Fri) and 2 an hour on Sat.

To be fair, most of the passengers affected by this dispute have a bus alternative.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair, most of the passengers affected by this dispute have a bus alternative.

I'm sure at least one strike corresponded with an Arriva bus strike and many have corresponded with Northern strikes.

 

[Carlisle]

I suppose you could look at it as keeping the money people pay in fares in the local economy. Guards will spend their wages in the local economy. Business will take the money elsewhere or even abroad.

I agree ,but in our existing capitalist culture it’s hard to envisage an alternative to financial incentives for individuals or companies who take risks on new ideas and technologies that enable products and services to be delivered better/ faster and /or cheaper, otherwise we just stagnate and get left behind by other parts of the world, maybe much longer term everything will be seen differently with more emphasis on fairer distribution of wealth ,

 

[185143]

I'm sure at least one strike corresponded with an Arriva bus strike and many have corresponded with Northern strikes.

There was 1 strike that coincided with a bus strike. For the record, the rail strike was announced first and THEN the bus drivers union announced an extra date.

It was also the day where there was a track fault at James Street in the evening peak...

 

[AntoniC]

It's all right for those who have an alternative bus option to the train. Bus services are being cut left, right and centre with lots of cuts happening around now due to the start of the new financial year. Last week my local bus station had around 6 departures an hour (Mon-Sat), on Tuesday it'll be around 3 an hour (Mon-Fri) and 2 an hour on Sat.

The one time the train strike coincided with an Arriva bus strike , I managed to get a Stagecoach bus to and from work.

 

[dk1]

As it is now only 12 days away with no announcement, can we safely say that there will now be no strike on Grand National Day?

 

[trainophile]

As it is now only 12 days away with no announcement, can we safely say that there will now be no strike on Grand National Day?

They were all over Twitter yesterday telling people to use their services to get to and from Aintree, so I doubt they would renege now.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It think they need to give 14 days notice unless both sides agree to 7 days, so it is possible but unlikely.

 

[dk1]

It think they need to give 14 days notice unless both sides agree to 7 days, so it is possible but unlikely.

Exactly what I was led to believe. Fingers crossed then. Thanks.

 

[WatcherZero]

More talk RMT and Merseyrail have agreed to ACAS talks.
RMT have surrendered their red lines so independent arbitration talks now possible.

 

[185143]

They were all over Twitter yesterday telling people to use their services to get to and from Aintree, so I doubt they would renege now.

That happened the Friday before Christmas... I certainly saw posters stating that the previously advertised late night trains will not be running due to a strike.

 

[footprints]

The RMT are still presenting the talks in their press release today entirely as an opportunity to explore having a second person on the train, even though they've signed up to the talks with the agreement that not having a second person on every train is a possible outcome. While it's good that the two sides are now going to resume talking, will the RMT in reality agree to any circumstances where a second person wouldn't be required? I can't see that happening. I guess Merseyrail will be relatively pleased whatever the outcome if they've managed to avert strikes to coincide with the Grand National.