RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[trainophile]

Spotted at Chester station today

Quite apart from the strike, I would like to know what particular art the new trains are the state of. Apart from the lowered platform-level floors, I don't like the look of them. Seats too close together and to the windows, and still no toilets. How can that be state of the art in this day and age?

 

[6Gman]

Not to rake over old coals, but for bow long are you willing to smile?

In the case of this dispute, as long as it lasts.

 

[Chester1]

No doubt racegoers will be next to be targeted when strike action is called to coincide with two or three days of the Grand National festival. Can't imagine they'll only strike on the Saturday this year.

It is such an obvious plan that Merseytravel hopefully have informally arranged to hire a very large number of buses and coaches for every race day. On Thursday and Friday it would be better to try to serve commuters by rail and serve Ormskirk line with a stopping bus service and a non stop Lime Street to racecourse shuttle. They can't do both and race day journeys will be easiest to serve by bus / coach.

 

[Carlisle]

In the case of this dispute, as long as it lasts.

The more I see posts like this, the clearer it seems ( to me anyway) just how much the RMT really do miss the likes of Bob Crow’s negotiating and dealmaking abilities.

 

[trainophile]

Northern just announced more strikes on 26th and 29th March. Presumably Merseyrail will follow suit?

 

[Chester1]

The more I see posts like this, the clearer it seems ( to me anyway) just how much the RMT really do miss the likes of Bob Crow’s negotiating and dealmaking abilities.

I agree. There is a deal to be made that makes OBS a permanent feature of the railways and the Tories will settle for that but RMT are acting like the miners and think they can beat the government. You would think the fact that on Merseyside DOO is being introduced by a Labour controlled transport authority in one of the most left wing parts of the country would make the RMT reconsider its position.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. There is a deal to be made that makes OBS a permanent feature of the railways and the Tories will settle for that but RMT are acting like the miners and think they can beat the government. You would think the fact that on Merseyside DOO is being introduced by a Labour controlled transport authority in one of the most left wing parts of the country would make the RMT reconsider its position.

OBS don't make sense for Merseyrail. What is proposed, staffing of high risk trains e.g. a few Byelaw officers on late evening trains with poor behaviour issues, makes a lot more sense.

OBS may well work well for Northern, though, particularly rural services with frequent stops and a lot of on-board revenue sales, and they could be safety-trained if desired. Though my preference for Northern is for all units to be converted to driver release, guard close.

 

[Chester1]

OBS don't make sense for Merseyrail. What is proposed, staffing of high risk trains e.g. a few Byelaw officers on late evening trains with poor behaviour issues, makes a lot more sense.

OBS may well work well for Northern, though, particularly rural services with frequent stops and a lot of on-board revenue sales, and they could be safety-trained if desired. Though my preference for Northern is for all units to be converted to driver release, guard close.

60 out of 220 guards are proposed to stay long term as OBS. Those recruited on fixed term contracts will not have their contracts renewed (which they knew when they started the job). The number of permenant guards retained as OBS will reduce to 60 through transfers to other roles e.g. drivers and station staff, as people retire and through voluntary redundancy. I can see your point but having no OBS would either take a long time or require compulsory redundancies which would undermine support for change.

 

[northwichcat]

OBS don't make sense for Merseyrail. What is proposed, staffing of high risk trains e.g. a few Byelaw officers on late evening trains with poor behaviour issues, makes a lot more sense.

OBS may well work well for Northern, though, particularly rural services with frequent stops and a lot of on-board revenue sales, and they could be safety-trained if desired. Though my preference for Northern is for all units to be converted to driver release, guard close.

Wasn't there something said about staff jumping on prior to entering the underground section and jumping off again when the train is back above ground, as well as the second member of staff on 'high risk' services?

 

[6Gman]

Wasn't there something said about staff jumping on prior to entering the underground section and jumping off again when the train is back above ground, as well as the second member of staff on 'high risk' services?

But above ground is - arguably - where you need the second member of staff, especially on the Southport line with all its crossings (foot and vehicular).

 

[trainophile]

Not sure where to put this, but having read the "ironing board seats" thread I am wondering whether the new Merseyrail trains are going to be similarly uncomfortable. It took me a lot of Googling to find out that they are being made by Stadler and will be Class 777, but from the visuals being put out on Twitter they appear very similar to the much maligned 700s. Seats very close together with no space between them or the windows, and backs very upright. All we need is for them to be rock hard to sit on too and a lot of people will be very unhappy, with or without a Guard on board.

 

[Andrew32]

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-makes-fresh-talks-offer-14433084

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting its the RMT union that has made the concession of entertaining the prospect of DOO in ACAS talks which previously they had set as a red line that talks couldn't occur unless the company agreed against it, while Merseyrail hasn't yet agreed to ACAS proposal that they each equally recognise the possibility of an unsuccessful settlement of the dispute.

This comes a day after Merseyrail had offered the RMT direct talks with the requirement no party should set preconditions for holding them.

 

[Andrew32]

Merseyrail have now signed up to the Terms of Refrence that RMT agreed with ACAS on 19th March. Talks will take place this week chaired by a senior ACAS national conciliator.

 

[footprints]

Presumably strike action for the Grand National has been avoided then unless it's announced tomorrow?

 

[Carlisle]

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-makes-fresh-talks-offer-14433084

A quick look at the first few dozen comments below that article doesn’t suggest unquestionable public support for the RMTs current hardline agenda. More an understanding that a solution will require meaningful compromise on both sides, not just Merseyrail backing down.

 

[Kite159]

A quick look at the first few dozen comments below that article doesn’t suggest unquestionable public support for the RMTs current hardline agenda. More an understanding that a solution will require meaningful compromise on both sides, not just Merseyrail backing down.

And not just Merseyrail backing down, but Merseytravel backing down and making changes to their financial plans.

So cue a couple years of British Rail style 50% price hikes for fares.

 

[507 001]

And not just Merseyrail backing down, but Merseytravel backing down and making changes to their financial plans.

So cue a couple years of British Rail style 50% price hikes for fares.

IIRC Abellio take home enough money each year to pay for the guards three times over.

 

[Goldfish62]

IIRC Abellio take home enough money each year to pay for the guards three times over.

It's not for Abellio to decide. Merseytravel, part of the local authority, calls the shots. It's no different from when London Overground got rid of guards. It was TfL's decision, not the operator's.

 

[507 001]

It's not for Abellio to decide. Merseytravel, part of the local authority, calls the shots. It's no different from when London Overground got rid of guards. It was TfL's decision, not the operator's

Yes I do know that. The point is that there is enough money within the concession to pay for the guards, it would just involve paying the operator a little less. It’s hard to stomach paying a private operator so much when you’re cutting front line staff so heavily.

 

[Carlisle]

Yes I do know that. The point is that there is enough money within the concession to pay for the guards, it would just involve paying the operator a little less. It’s hard to stomach paying a private operator so much when you’re cutting front line staff so heavily.

The debate will then become ‘why on earth pay significantly more for a technologically obsolete way of operating? particularly on an inner suburban metro. It’s proposed stations will be staffed first to last train anyway, or maybe the union’s not too concerned if station staffing is substantially cut or outsourced in significant numbers to cheaper sub contractors as long as traditional guards are retained untouched.

 

[northwichcat]

IIRC Abellio take home enough money each year to pay for the guards three times over.

Not sure how you arrived at those figures. Merseyrail's staffing costs is £57m per year - that includes pay, employer's NI and pensions. The cost of the directors is £480,000 per year, so that's around £56.5m for the rest of the staff which is for a total of 1,255 employees.

Net profit is £12.5m a year so Abellio's share would be £6.25m a year as Serco own half the concession. A third of that is just over £2m, which taking in to account employer's NI and pension contributions would probably only be enough to employ around one guard for every train the franchise has, so to make that work every guard would have to work 7 days a week from first to last service for less than what guards at other operators get for working 35 hours or less per week - unrealistic!

Full financials: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/LerHl16aucWiMZtgR0BNsubvKtMoFyZntrI6fDcEsnk/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAJKN6WWXHUL3IXQYA&Expires=1522573805&Signature=2qLwCRFLTVDCxLVkXJJUTUV6gzc=&x-amz-security-token=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

 

[507 001]

Then the debate then will move onto ‘why on earth pay more for a technologically obsolete way of operating? particularly on an inner suburban metro environment

Since when has the Eyeball been obsolete?!

Not sure how you arrived at those figures. Merseyrail's staffing costs is £57m per year - that includes pay, employer's NI and pensions. The cost of the directors is £480,000 per year, so that's around £56.5m for the rest of the staff which is for a total of 1,255 employees.

Net profit is £12.5m a year so Abellio's share would be £6.25m a year as Serco own half the concession. A third of that is just over £2m, which taking in to account employer's NI and pension contributions would probably only be enough to employ around one guard for every train the franchise has, so to make that work every guard would have to work 7 days a week from first to last service for less than what guards at other operators get for working 35 hours or less per week - unrealistic!

Full financials: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/LerHl16aucWiMZtgR0BNsubvKtMoFyZntrI6fDcEsnk/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAJKN6WWXHUL3IXQYA&Expires=1522573805&Signature=2qLwCRFLTVDCxLVkXJJUTUV6gzc=&x-amz-security-token=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

I put IIRC because I seemed to remember that statement being bandied about around the beginning of the dispute.

 

[Dave1987]

Then the debate then will move onto ‘why on earth pay more for a technologically obsolete way of operating? particularly on an inner suburban metro environment

I suppose you could look at it as keeping the money people pay in fares in the local economy. Guards will spend their wages in the local economy. Business will take the money elsewhere or even abroad.

 

[trainophile]

I can't help observing that the vast majority of people who aren't worried about the demise of guards are youngish to middle aged males, more than capable of looking after themselves in a threatening situation on board. Ask any pensioner or lone travelling female what they think, and the consensus is always that we need a second authorised member of staff on every train, not just those after 8:00 pm.

The emphasis on "safety", in this specific area, is as much personal safety while travelling as it is to do with door opening and closing operations. I understand there is a widespread drugs culture in the Merseyside area, and sadly some of the less amenable sectors of society will use the trains at all times of day. (Is that diplomatic enough?)

 

[Carlisle]

Since when has the Eyeball been obsolete?!
.

It isn’t, but dispatch has been exhaustively debated, on here, and almost every other sector of the media plus, DFT, RSSB Govt, etc etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't help observing that the vast majority of people who aren't worried about the demise of guards are youngish to middle aged males, more than capable of looking after themselves in a threatening situation on board. Ask any pensioner or lone travelling female what they think, and the consensus is always that we need a second authorised member of staff on every train, not just those after 8:00 pm.

The emphasis on "safety", in this specific area, is as much personal safety while travelling as it is to do with door opening and closing operations. I understand there is a widespread drugs culture in the Merseyside area, and sadly some of the less amenable sectors of society will use the trains at all times of day. (Is that diplomatic enough?)

But that aspect would be much better provided for (and cheaper) with more contracted Byelaw officers than railway guards.

 

[fowler9]

What are we all going to do to earn a wage once technology has made us all obsolete in a world with a growing population?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are we all going to do to earn a wage once technology has made us all obsolete in a world with a growing population?

There has been a lot of debate on this one, there are probably two approaches. One is that there will still be jobs to do - people like value added human interaction. The other is that you tax automated productivity instead of work, and you move towards the likes of Universal Basic Income.

 

[fowler9]

There has been a lot of debate on this one, there are probably two approaches. One is that there will still be jobs to do - people like value added human interaction. The other is that you tax automated productivity instead of work, and you move towards the likes of Universal Basic Income.

The problem is that the people at the top of the pile want to use the technological cost saving measures to become ever richer, not so their cash can be diverted elsewhere to support people who are no longer required. The time is going to come, sooner than many think, that we are going to need a massive discussion about how and why we do things and what people are worth.