RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[313103]

So your defence for your lousy argument is others make lousy arguments. :roll:

Based on your argument you'd be happy with guards aged 50+ being moved off front line duties in to ticket office roles as long as they have a railway career for life, to be on a par with the police and fire service. A job in an industry for life is not the same as retaining the same role for life.

Well if the cap fits!.

I would rather guards age 50+ do what you are suggesting rather then being made unemployed, which it would appear you are suggesting.

Now you have touched on it what is a person who has spent his/her life working in the industry, who left school straight into the industry,has no school qualifications, does not drive a road vehicle, has only ever known one role, cannot afford to retire early, still has a mortgage or rent to pay every week/month to do? Go back to school? Start learning to drive, learn a new vocation that will lead to employment? and whilst doing all this still trying to make ends meet.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is no legally binding agreement but its a promise from Merseytravel which is controlled by 5 Labour run councils who are not going to turn on the unions. The catch is that a lot of fixed term staff are being recruited and they will lose their jobs when the new trains are introduced and permanent guards are switched to other roles. 3-4 years for Merseyrail is still a great job oppertunity though and they know what they are signing up to.

There is a difference between a career and a job for life. Working life is being extended to roughly 50 years (e.g. 18-68) and that fundmentally changes the world of work. I view my job as my first career. I have the aim of paying off my mortgage and building up a good pension by 50. With capital, no mortgage and no need to make pension contributions I will free to semi retire or switch to less stressful work for 20 years, I will also hopefully still have parents then and they will need my time and energy. Its understably a very vauge plan currently but its reflective of the changes that my generation will face. Its unrealistic to expect a job for life or leaving work at 60 when your likely to live to nearly or past 90. Train staff are not exempt from these changes and frankly swtiching from safety critical roles for the last part of peoples working life sounds sensible. Many of Merseyrails permanent guards will be in their 50s and there are 60 OBS roles. There are currently 220 guards but many of them will leave and be replaced by fixed term contract staff in the next 5 years. Its likely that nearly half of permanent guards will become OBS, some will become drivers and the rest customer service staff but on a guards pay.

Not sure that '....working life is being extended to 50 years (e.g 18-68)' -
when it used to be 15/16 - 65. In addition, a much smaller proportion will now start work at/by 18 as so many are at further education/Uni well past that age.

 

[Robertj21a]

Seems you do not read my posts, however i wont mention what happened to me as i have been told by the forum administrators to 'get over it'.

That sounds like good advice from the forum administrators.

 

[AlterEgo]

a person who has spent his/her life working in the industry, who left school straight into the industry,has no school qualifications, does not drive a road vehicle, has only ever known one role, cannot afford to retire early, still has a mortgage or rent to pay every week/month to do? Go back to school? Start learning to drive, learn a new vocation that will lead to employment? and whilst doing all this still trying to make ends meet.

The key to advancing in life is investing in yourself - exactly. That's what most people who get ahead do, and most of them don't wait for it to be handed to them on a plate.

 

[Dave1987]

The key to advancing in life is investing in yourself - exactly. That's what most people who get ahead do, and most of them don't wait for it to be handed to them on a plate.

Well arguably the Government should be investing in adult learning to get people appropriately trained up for the future. Lots of people in their 40-50's going to be made redundant soon who have only ever known one trade in their whole careers with mortgages and families to provide for. Haven't heard a single thing from the Government about adult learning.

Lots of people on this forum saying that the railway way of thinking of having a career for life is outdated and that short term contracts are the norm now is extremely depressing. How on earth can someone possibly plan their life and think about starting a family if they don't know whether they will be in employment in two or three years time.

 

[driver_m]

Well arguably the Government should be investing in adult learning to get people appropriately trained up for the future. Lots of people in their 40-50's going to be made redundant soon who have only ever known one trade in their whole careers with mortgages and families to provide for. Haven't heard a single thing from the Government about adult learning.

Lots of people on this forum saying that the railway way of thinking of having a career for life is outdated and that short term contracts are the norm now is extremely depressing. How on earth can someone possibly plan their life and think about starting a family if they don't know whether they will be in employment in two or three years time.

Some people on here clearly have the concept that a job for life should not exist. Insecurity and short term planning is all these people think should happen. Waste of time arguing with them Dave. Their attitude 'tough'.

The kind of people you just wouldn't want as a friend, neighbour, or even an associate. We're better than this Dave. I'm leaving them to their right wing neoliberalism.

 

[northwichcat]

How on earth can someone possibly plan their life and think about starting a family if they don't know whether they will be in employment in two or three years time.

Same problem exists in many industries. The government keeps telling us they'll provide more houses but keep making a lack of progress. Then what happens if we actually do have enough houses in 10 years time? Do we build surplus houses just to keep construction workers in the same industry? Well that would be a stupid idea but finding alternative suitable employment for those workers would be sensible.

 

[northwichcat]

Well if the cap fits!.

I would rather guards age 50+ do what you are suggesting rather then being made unemployed, which it would appear you are suggesting.

Now you have touched on it what is a person who has spent his/her life working in the industry, who left school straight into the industry,has no school qualifications, does not drive a road vehicle, has only ever known one role, cannot afford to retire early, still has a mortgage or rent to pay every week/month to do? Go back to school? Start learning to drive, learn a new vocation that will lead to employment? and whilst doing all this still trying to make ends meet.

I've NOT said people should be made unemployed but I am of the opinion people shouldn't be kept in a role if the role isn't still needed. Anyone who disagrees with that would think that diesel and electric trains need firemen in the cabs.

 

[Chester1]

Some people on here clearly have the concept that a job for life should not exist. Insecurity and short term planning is all these people think should happen. Waste of time arguing with them Dave. Their attitude 'tough'.

The kind of people you just wouldn't want as a friend, neighbour, or even an associate. We're better than this Dave. I'm leaving them to their right wing neoliberalism.

Can you not see the irony in your comment. We don't think rail staff are entitled to a job for life therefore we are apparently awful people?

I have sympathy for people who are genuinely vulnerable not people who are highly unlikely to lose their jobs, just be made to different roles by their employeer. Rail staff have a relatively good situation. Its entirely possible to learn to accept that people with significantly different viewpoints are not bad. Its also possible to see changes on a spectrum. There are multiple rail staff on this forum who seem to think that anything compared to their current situation is terrible and must be talked about in extreme terms.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some people on here clearly have the concept that a job for life should not exist. Insecurity and short term planning is all these people think should happen. Waste of time arguing with them Dave. Their attitude 'tough'.

The kind of people you just wouldn't want as a friend, neighbour, or even an associate. We're better than this Dave. I'm leaving them to their right wing neoliberalism.

It's not really that a job for life shouldn't ever exist, it's that the industry we are discussing is undergoing significant change which some people want to resist.

If you advocate jobs for life then you advocate resistance to change. Where are all the lift attendants?

The ad hominem returns to combat realism I see.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well arguably the Government should be investing in adult learning to get people appropriately trained up for the future. Lots of people in their 40-50's going to be made redundant soon who have only ever known one trade in their whole careers with mortgages and families to provide for. Haven't heard a single thing from the Government about adult learning.

Lots of people on this forum saying that the railway way of thinking of having a career for life is outdated and that short term contracts are the norm now is extremely depressing. How on earth can someone possibly plan their life and think about starting a family if they don't know whether they will be in employment in two or three years time.

You've lost me - yet again. What on earth are you now going on about. Adults have been made redundant for decades, they've had families, mortgages and everything else you mention. Training courses, further education and assistance in finding new jobs has been out there for as long as I can remember.

What is so different now (other than you may be personally affected) ?

People who survive and thrive know that it requires effort on their part, it's no use sitting back, whingeing about everything you don't like - get out there and improve your own situation.

 

[Chester1]

You've lost me - yet again. What on earth are you now going on about. Adults have been made redundant for decades, they've had families, mortgages and everything else you mention. Training courses, further education and assistance in finding new jobs has been out there for as long as I can remember.

What is so different now (other than you may be personally affected) ?

People who survive and thrive know that it requires effort on their part, it's no use sitting back, whingeing about everything you don't like - get out there and improve your own situation.

Only an evil neo liberal could say that :-P

There is a line between protecting the vulnerable and trying to resist change. I am a liberal and believe this country should have a strong safety net but outside of that the economy needs to be flexible and able to adapt to global and technology changes which are occuring at an incredible rate.

Getting back on topic - DOO - Merseytravels plans will help the disabled and elderly by removing any need to have help from staff. Step free access at all stations and equalising all platform and train floor heights on the Merseyrail network is better than having to book help in advance. On the other hand, DOO on Northern and Southern is bad for disabled access but they are treated as though they are the same.

 

[313103]

People who survive and thrive know that it requires effort on their part, it's no use sitting back, whingeing about everything you don't like - get out there and improve your own situation.

When and more importantly does one do this? Take a sabbatical from work to find alternative trades outside the current one they are in, i dont think there current employers will like that. How many trades does one have to learn 1, 2, 5, 10 ? Do it in work time or do it in between shift patterns?

I mean are you and any others expecting there jobs to change at any time? What plans have made if that is indeed the case? Would you go in another direction that is noting totally like the job you are in? Please don't think im taking the wee wee i genuinely want to understand.

 

[northwichcat]

Excellent point Chester1 - we should be aiming to allow disabled people to be as independent as possible. Having to find a staff member to put down a ramp for them is a 20th century approach that we should be trying to eliminate.

 

[Moonshot]

Excellent point Chester1 - we should be aiming to allow disabled people to be as independent as possible. Having to find a staff member to put down a ramp for them is a 20th century approach that we should be trying to eliminate.

How would you eliminate that ?

 

[Camden]

The trains have already been ordered and paid for with all the kit required to enable DCO. There's fat chance of that kit being left idle when the local taxpayer and farepayers are picking up the bill for the modernisation.

Has it even been ascertained whether the new trains are capable of being guard operated? What if on the new trains it is only technologically possible for the driver to physically and/or safely do door duties?...

Lots of emotive arguing over the previous number of pages, but no one seems to be answering the practicalities I raised.

 

[Camden]

How would you eliminate that ?

Isn't that being eliminated by introduction of the new trains with gap free level boarding?

 

[Moonshot]

Isn't that being eliminated by introduction of the new trains with gap free level boarding?

It will do on Merseyrail......but no chance of that happening on the Northern rail network.

 

[Camden]

So what? This is about Merseyrail. Northern industrial action has its own thread.

 

[Moonshot]

So what? This is about Merseyrail. Northern industrial action has its own thread.

re read posts 1151 and 1153

 

[Camden]

Still off-topic/wrong thread. On this thread, the platform interface angle doesn't hold water because the trains will improve things.

If that causes some kind of communications issue relating to issues on another subject, then the thread for that subject is where discussion about that would need to take place.

 

[urbophile]

Merseyrail is solving disabled access by making all stations fully disabled accessable .

That's news to me. Both platforms at my local station (Cressington) and the next nearest, Aigburth, are only accessible by stairs, and I've heard no suggestion that lifts will be installed. And going by the frequency with which lifts break down in the stations which have them, that's not an ideal solution anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

How would you eliminate that ?

It has already been stated in this thread multiple times including a couple of posts above the one you chose to reply to.

 

[northwichcat]

That's news to me. Both platforms at my local station (Cressington) and the next nearest, Aigburth, are only accessible by stairs, and I've heard no suggestion that lifts will be installed. And going by the frequency with which lifts break down in the stations which have them, that's not an ideal solution anyway.

All Merseyrail stations in Merseyside are staffed from first to last train so if there's a fault with the lifts station staff can provide assistance.

 

[jamesst]

All Merseyrail stations in Merseyside are staffed from first to last train so if there's a fault with the lifts station staff can provide assistance.

For now...

 

[Chester1]

That's news to me. Both platforms at my local station (Cressington) and the next nearest, Aigburth, are only accessible by stairs, and I've heard no suggestion that lifts will be installed. And going by the frequency with which lifts break down in the stations which have them, that's not an ideal solution anyway.

All Merseyrail stations in Merseyside are staffed from first to last train so if there's a fault with the lifts station staff can provide assistance.

I don't know the time frame or plans for it but lack of step free access to stations is an equal problem with or without a guard. I am struggling to think of a Wirral line station that doesn't already have step free access and most Northern line stations do too. The work to alter platform heights is part of the deal with Stadler.

At times the use of disability access as an argument against DOO makes me wonder if people would like disabled people to be reliant on conductors to help justify keeping the role. Its a major problem with introducing DOO elsewhere but the Merseyrail plans are a huge improvement for disabled access.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what? This is about Merseyrail. Northern industrial action has its own thread.

Indeed it does, and as I've said many times in this thread I fully support DOO on Merseyrail but do not support it on Northern, because the situation is completely different.

One of the key reasons is that level boarding with no gap will be provided. This means that assistance will not be required, and wheelchair users and those unsteady on their feet will board like everyone else. This is the ultimate aim - true equality, not only of opportunity but also of situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For now...

And if that ceases to be the case it could be provided by a telephone line to call for assistance, which would sensibly include a free taxi to the nearest station with working lifts.

 

[Chester1]

Indeed it does, and as I've said many times in this thread I fully support DOO on Merseyrail but do not support it on Northern, because the situation is completely different.

One of the key reasons is that level boarding with no gap will be provided. This means that assistance will not be required, and wheelchair users and those unsteady on their feet will board like everyone else. This is the ultimate aim - true equality, not only of opportunity but also of situation.

A major problem with the left is that they paint themselves as good and the Tories as evil and there is no room for a middle ground, your either with them or against them. There isn't acceptance of a middle ground. Look the comments directed against me personally in this thread over the last day or so and I am against 2 out 3 of the DOO plans! Ultimately I think the railway runs for the benefit of passengers not staff and if fewer are needed natural wastage is a perfectly acceptable way of reducing staff levels over time. I would support DOO on Northern too if the plans were much better.

 

[urbophile]

All Merseyrail stations in Merseyside are staffed from first to last train so if there's a fault with the lifts station staff can provide assistance.

Only in theory. I've often seen the shutters down on the booking office and no staff in attendance. But admittedly maybe not at the stations with lifts.