RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed it does, and as I've said many times in this thread I fully support DOO on Merseyrail but do not support it on Northern, because the situation is completely different.

One of the key reasons is that level boarding with no gap will be provided. This means that assistance will not be required, and wheelchair users and those unsteady on their feet will board like everyone else. This is the ultimate aim - true equality, not only of opportunity but also of situation.

We have this in Tyne and Wear: a suburban metro system with DOO trains, level boarding at every station, lifts/accessible ramps at every station.

And the system is, to use a technical term, a sack of *****e.

The trains are filthy, antisocial behaviour is rife, people getting trapped in doors is so common that Metro's response is to threaten prosecution to anyone who dares get caught in the doors.

As for "assistance" for vulnerable people, that comes from fellow passengers because there are no platform staff and the driver can't see what's going on further down the train (in fact, when the train is away from a station, the driver has no access at all to half the train).

The only time you ever see a member of staff on the train is when they're doing a revenue protection sting. The rest of the time you're on your own. Sure, there's a help-point on every station (if they answer it) but there isn't on the train and there's no way of speaking to the driver.

Don't imagine for one second that Merseyrail won't be exactly the same, no matter how shiny new the shiny Aventra Flirts are.

Lots of emotive arguing over the previous number of pages, but no one seems to be answering the practicalities I raised.

If it is a fait-accompli, Merseyrail should be honest about it.

As for whether the driver controls the doors, there is always the Voyager solution, where the driver controls the doors under direction from the guard.

 

[urbophile]

As a lefty I nevertheless totally accept the arguments that with new trains and technology the traditional role of guard is outmoded. However, that doesn't give the management carte blanche to dispense with staff when they could be deployed in more useful and passenger-focussed ways; as the previous poster points out, an on-train presence besides the driver would avoid many problems. Moreover, the frequency on Merseyrail could be increased usefully from 4 to 6 tph which would demand more drivers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As a lefty I nevertheless totally accept the arguments that with new trains and technology the traditional role of guard is outmoded.

I don't, to be honest. Just because something is technologically possible doesn't mean that it is the most appropriate thing to do.

Two pairs of MkI eyeballs are better than one pair and a bank of TV screens. Things don't go wrong often but when they do, the more trained staff available the better. We've seen that both on Thameslink, most infamously at Kentish Town, but also on Tyne and Wear Metro where it took them more than two hours to evacuate a train after a power failure in one of the city centre tunnels. The Metro has a walkway in every tunnel, it should have been a doddle to get people out. But it wasn't. No staff and no direction, that's the DOO way.

The problem is that the cost of things going wrong is less than the saving of getting rid of staff. Kentish Town cost FCC about £100,000, despite their criminal negligence and incompetence. So you could have that happen every few months and you'd still be quids in.

 

[northwichcat]

Only in theory. I've often seen the shutters down on the booking office and no staff in attendance. But admittedly maybe not at the stations with lifts.

I'm sure TOCs can't prevent their ticket office staff getting sick and the ticket office not opening on time/closing early, anymore than they can prevent any cancellations due to train crews being sick. Obviously at Central you'd expect more than one person on duty so someone phoning in sick wouldn't result in the station being unstaffed but at somewhere like Freshfield you wouldn't exactly expect a large team to be on duty.

 

[northwichcat]

Moreover, the frequency on Merseyrail could be increased usefully from 4 to 6 tph which would demand more drivers.

I'm not sure that's true - can the central Liverpool stations handle a 50% increase in frequency? That would result in the single low level platform at Lime Street having to deal with 24 departures an hour instead of 16.

It also ignores the fact Merseytravel have identified that costs need to be reduced to be able to afford the new trains.

 

[urbophile]

I don't, to be honest. Just because something is technologically possible doesn't mean that it is the most appropriate thing to do.

Two pairs of MkI eyeballs are better than one pair and a bank of TV screens. Things don't go wrong often but when they do, the more trained staff available the better. .

I agree totally. But my point was that technology makes part of the guards' role redundant. All the more reason to develop the other aspects as you suggest.

 

[urbophile]

I'm not sure that's true - can the central Liverpool stations handle a 50% increase in frequency? That would result in the single low level platform at Lime Street having to deal with 24 departures an hour instead of 16.
.

That's the sort of frequency common on London Underground. The only constraints besides slow acceleration (no longer the case with new trains) is a signalling system not up to the job, surely? As for the Northern Line, more through trains from the Ormskirk and Kirkby branches towards Hunts Cross, or hopefully in the future via the Wapping tunnel to what is now the City Line, would ease congestion at Central.

 

[Nean]

That's the sort of frequency common on London Underground. The only constraints besides slow acceleration (no longer the case with new trains) is a signalling system not up to the job, surely? As for the Northern Line, more through trains from the Ormskirk and Kirkby branches towards Hunts Cross, or hopefully in the future via the Wapping tunnel to what is now the City Line, would ease congestion at Central.

If they want to try to squeeze more services into Hunts Cross then they'll need to do something major with the junction at Hunts Cross West to avoid fouling the pattern for the City Line services. Quite often there's a hold-up one way or the other as all the services are timed/flighted reasonably closely around the South Parkway-Hunts Cross section.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the sort of frequency common on London Underground. The only constraints besides slow acceleration (no longer the case with new trains) is a signalling system not up to the job, surely? As for the Northern Line, more through trains from the Ormskirk and Kirkby branches towards Hunts Cross, or hopefully in the future via the Wapping tunnel to what is now the City Line, would ease congestion at Central.

The Loop was originally signalled for 30tph.

 

[urbophile]

If they want to try to squeeze more services into Hunts Cross then they'll need to do something major with the junction at Hunts Cross West to avoid fouling the pattern for the City Line services. Quite often there's a hold-up one way or the other as all the services are timed/flighted reasonably closely around the South Parkway-Hunts Cross section.

Alternate trains to turn back at Parkway?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I saw this poster today on Merseyrail stations.
Merseyrail are evidently not going to hide their intention of going DOO on the new trains.

Here's a transcript:

"Do you know...
Our new trains will still have staff on-board.
...
Our new trains are safe, but we know it's important you feel secure too.
BTP, security staff, ticket inspectors and cleaners will still be on trains.
There will also be a new team of around 60 customer service staff on-board at key locations and times of the day,
when they are likely to be of most help, such as at night."

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Two pairs of MkI eyeballs are better than one pair and a bank of TV screens.

Are there not CCTV operators with a bank of screens in many large areas who then pass on any requisite information to the police?

 

[yorkie]

....The only time you ever see a member of staff on the train is when they're doing a revenue protection sting...

That's the case on Merseyrail at present in my experience.

 

[8A Rail]

I saw this poster today on Merseyrail stations.
Merseyrail are evidently not going to hide their intention of going DOO on the new trains.

Basically good public relations by Merseytravel and Merseyrail by getting the information out to the general public and getting them on their side. This is were the RMT need to up their game and get the right facts and reasons before Merseytravel and Merseyrail march ahead in the good public relations dept! Time for the RMT to employ a good public relations company to advise them otherwise battle could be lost.

 

[313103]

That sounds like good advice from the forum administrators.

That it certainly is as i now don't mention it anymore.

 

[313103]

I saw this poster today on Merseyrail stations.
Merseyrail are evidently not going to hide their intention of going DOO on the new trains.

The poster is indeed correct, because the only way to run these trains is to have a driver. Now if they did not have a driver then the poster would be disingenuous to its passengers/customers.

 

[northwichcat]

Basically good public relations by Merseytravel and Merseyrail by getting the information out to the general public and getting them on their side. This is were the RMT need to up their game and get the right facts and reasons before Merseytravel and Merseyrail march ahead in the good public relations dept! Time for the RMT to employ a good public relations company to advise them otherwise battle could be lost.

The biggest problem with the RMT is they keep having Merseyrail and Northern strikes on the same day. When the media get hold of a rep they then have to comment on both disputes but the rep focuses on Merseyrail where they know more about the plan and the plan is for 100% DOO and doesn't guarantee a second member of staff on all services (guard or not) from origin to destination. I wonder how many average passengers on hearing the RMT reps think that Northern plan 100% DOO or even Northern plan a completely new fleet!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Our trains will still have staff on board

That's good to know. The trains won't be going very far without a driver.

 

[Camden]

Basically good public relations by Merseytravel and Merseyrail by getting the information out to the general public and getting them on their side. This is were the RMT need to up their game and get the right facts and reasons before Merseytravel and Merseyrail march ahead in the good public relations dept! Time for the RMT to employ a good public relations company to advise them otherwise battle could be lost.

But the battle is lost, isn't it? The trains have been ordered and are in the process of manufacture.

Firstly there is no way that the technology to be DCO is going to be left idle, secondly, and three times now I have asked without response, do people even know if these trains can be anything other than DCO?

What if it's technically not possible for a guard to operate the doors either at all or safely, based on the specification which has been ordered and is in manufacture already? Has this basic information been ascertained?

 

[XDM]

That's good to know. The trains won't be going very far without a driver.

You may jest, but high ups in the rail industry & elsewhere have been examining no driver operation spurred on by the rejected Southern pay rise offer & the year long debacle. Sydney Australia, which has highly militant rail unions,has bypassed militancy with a lengthy no person operation City commuter line due to roll very soon. The 'drivers' of no person operation trains are the manufacturers who expect to do well out of their new technologies. No joke.

 

[8A Rail]

But the battle is lost, isn't it? The trains have been ordered and are in the process of manufacture.

Firstly there is no way that the technology to be DCO is going to be left idle, secondly, and three times now I have asked without response, do people even know if these trains can be anything other than DCO?

What if it's technically not possible for a guard to operate the doors either at all or safely, based on the specification which has been ordered and is in manufacture already? Has this basic information been ascertained?

You are making an assumption that the battle is lost but it is NOT fact. Yes the technology is being included, but it does not mean it wil be used. Won't be the first time that this has happened. There is still a long way to go before any agreement is made what ever that may be. I am just saying that RMT need to be pro-active with the public to gain good support and ultimately get a better deal than currently what is on offer.

Likewise you are making an assumption that DCO wont be left idle although I understand were you are coming from. I seem to recall that very early on with the announcement of the new trains by Merseytravel and along with RMT comments that these trains are able to be operated as per current practice, guard closing the doors etc but unfortunately, I am unable to find this information! May be a figment of my imagination but something to that effect was mentioned, I am sure. May be other members, could enlighten me please?

 

[8A Rail]

The biggest problem with the RMT is they keep having Merseyrail and Northern strikes on the same day. When the media get hold of a rep they then have to comment on both disputes but the rep focuses on Merseyrail where they know more about the plan and the plan is for 100% DOO and doesn't guarantee a second member of staff on all services (guard or not) from origin to destination. I wonder how many average passengers on hearing the RMT reps think that Northern plan 100% DOO or even Northern plan a completely new fleet!

That just sums up the RMT, they are not thinking the best options for both Merseyrail and Northern disputes. Yes they are linked in some ways but Merseyrail dispute has clearly a different set of issues but RMT are not doing a good job in highlighting this as in some ways being swallowed up by the bigger Northern dispute. Again time for the RMT to seek some good "public relations" advise instead of sticking to the old Union rhetoric as well as keeping the disputes separate as Merseytravel wont be interested what goes on with Northern when it comes to Merseyrail matters.

 

[313103]

But the battle is lost, isn't it? The trains have been ordered and are in the process of manufacture.

Firstly there is no way that the technology to be DCO is going to be left idle, secondly, and three times now I have asked without response, do people even know if these trains can be anything other than DCO?

What if it's technically not possible for a guard to operate the doors either at all or safely, based on the specification which has been ordered and is in manufacture already? Has this basic information been ascertained?

Isnt it Driver Only Operation on Merseyrail?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isnt it Driver Only Operation on Merseyrail?

All guarded at the moment on the ancient 50x trains, but the intention is full DOO when the new stock arrives (2020), with 60 roving customer service staff.
Nearly all the stations/ticket offices are fully manned all day too, with very few ATMs.
Guards do some ticket checking on the open sections (not underground).

 

[northwichcat]

All guarded at the moment on the ancient 50x trains, but the intention is full DOO when the new stock arrives (2020), with 60 roving customer service staff.
Nearly all the stations/ticket offices are fully manned all day too, with very few ATMs.
Guards do some ticket checking on the open sections (not underground).

I think 313103 was referring to a DCO reference for Merseyrail. It seems, despite DfT originally coming up with the term for operations where there would be a second member of staff but not a guard, the Merseyrail CEO has been referring to Merseyrail's DCO plan.

 

[gray1404]

Ticket checks by the guards on Merseyrail atm is pointless. I don't know why they bother, they are not revenue trained.

 

[LowLevel]

You don't just check tickets to make sure they're valid, it's also helpful to check people are on the right train and done well it's a good ice breaker in terms of customer service.

 

[185143]

Ticket checks by the guards on Merseyrail atm is pointless. I don't know why they bother, they are not revenue trained.

No it isn't. I've witnessed several times people ask to buy a ticket and be told that they risk getting 'fined' if they remain on the train-most people in that situation seem unaware of Merseyrail's PF scheme, and alight to buy a ticket in my experience.

Also, on a seperate occasion a large group of youths run to the front of the train to board-and that's exactly where the guard was. He asked if they had tickets-they told rudely him where to put the tickets that they hadn't bought, and were ordered off the train. I was told that they were known fare evaders-from behaving in a similar fashion towards other guards...

 

[M28361M]

The Liverpool Echo is reporting that the memo to guards, warning them they will not be considered for drivers jobs if they strike, has been withdrawn and a "new policy" is being drawn up.

Merseyrail has been accused of “bullying on a corporate scale” after a leaked memo showed the company warning striking guards that industrial action could harm their career progression.

The memo, sent by Merseyrail HR, told all guards preparing to take part in strike action this month that if they do so it could mean they will not be considered to be promoted to trainee train drivers in the future.

But after the Rail and Maritime Transport workers union (RMT) threatened action over what they called a “despicable” warning - the memo has been withdrawn and a new policy is being drawn up.

There have already been two 24-hour walk-outs and the RMT said this latest move from Merseyrail will only have worsened relations.

Regional organiser John Tilley said: “This was a deliberate policy of bullying and intimidation on a corporate scale.

“They were knowingly trying to bully people not to go on strike - particularly younger staff and it is despicable.

“It is absolutely disgusting - I have never seen anything like it in my 38 years in the industry.”

Mr Tilley said that after seeing the note he threatened to take it to the firm’s safety council as well as suggesting all wider Merseyrail staff could also be balloted.

He added: “As a result of that conversation the memo has now been withdrawn and a discussion is now taking place to put together a new selection criteria that doesn’t count strike days as AWOL.

“It just wasn’t British what they did and now their staff hold them in contempt, despite the fact they have now withdrawn it.

“This move has left a bitter taste in the mouths of all Merseyrail employees that will have ramifications for years to come.”

In a statement, a Merseyrail spokesman said: “Merseyrail and RMT had a disagreement about interpretation of a process for internal promotion. This has now been resolved through dialogue.”

The ECHO understands that the whole process for internal promotion has now been withdrawn and a working group will now be launched to come up with a new process.

 

[Chester1]

The Liverpool Echo is reporting that the memo to guards, warning them they will not be considered for drivers jobs if they strike, has been withdrawn and a "new policy" is being drawn up.

I am stongly in favour of DOO on Merseyrail but this is wrong and they will be forced to U turn. Removing the oppertunity to become a driver will make guards even less likely to accept DOO. You would think logically that Merseyrail would want as many guards to switch roles as fast as possible and replace them with fixed term contract staff until 2021.