RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Chester1]

I would like to think I'm a good enough employee that all being well I won't need to leave the railway (I have fairly extensive customer service, management and operational experience both in and out of the industry and I believe I'm held in pretty good regard) but I really don't need the stress.

It will likely happen though but you sound well placed to deal with it. I have a great deal of sympathy for Southern staff but very little for Merseyrail (apart from them favouring people who don't strike for trainee driver jobs). It seems like the transition will be long and all effort will be made to avoid compulsory redundancies.

 

[the sniper]

To be honest the answer to your and driver_m's post is unfortunately: tough

We're all f*****. Now you rail staff stop causing trouble, bend over and embrace a jolly good rodgering.

I've said it a few times now, but for all the people who just want rail staff to accept DOO, stop resisting it and continuously try to convince people here, what is the incentive for the unions and rail staff (particularly ex-Guards to be) to facilitate the implementation of DOO? If you passionately disagree with a practice, why would you help to facilitate its implementation and speed up the implementation of it elsewhere? If you're offered a s*** sandwich, do you chomp it down or push the plate away?

 

[ComUtoR]

I've said it a few times now, but for all the people who just want rail staff to accept DOO, stop resisting it and continuously try to convince people here, what is the incentive ....

...for the passenger ?

 

[the sniper]

...for the passenger ?

While the state/TOCs laugh at us all, passengers and staff... They win.

 

[Robertj21a]

We're all f*****. Now you rail staff stop causing trouble, bend over and embrace a jolly good rodgering.

I've said it a few times now, but for all the people who just want rail staff to accept DOO, stop resisting it and continuously try to convince people here, what is the incentive for the unions and rail staff (particularly ex-Guards to be) to facilitate the implementation of DOO? If you passionately disagree with a practice, why would you help to facilitate its implementation and speed up the implementation of it elsewhere? If you're offered a s*** sandwich, do you chomp it down or push the plate away?

I daresay that, for some staff, there is no incentive to co-operate. They won't want to co-operate and it's wasting everyone's time to think otherwise - but the changes on Merseyrail will still happen, regardless of what they want. If there are no compulsory redundancies then they'll still be employed.
If the situation is not what they want it to be for the longer term then they are free to look elsewhere for a different job - it's no different to what everyone else has to do.

 

[74A]

We're all f*****. Now you rail staff stop causing trouble, bend over and embrace a jolly good rodgering.

I've said it a few times now, but for all the people who just want rail staff to accept DOO, stop resisting it and continuously try to convince people here, what is the incentive for the unions and rail staff (particularly ex-Guards to be) to facilitate the implementation of DOO? If you passionately disagree with a practice, why would you help to facilitate its implementation and speed up the implementation of it elsewhere? If you're offered a s*** sandwich, do you chomp it down or push the plate away?

Merseyrail have said that is a guard strikes three times then they will not be considered for a driver position.

 

[Chester1]

We're all f*****. Now you rail staff stop causing trouble, bend over and embrace a jolly good rodgering.

I've said it a few times now, but for all the people who just want rail staff to accept DOO, stop resisting it and continuously try to convince people here, what is the incentive for the unions and rail staff (particularly ex-Guards to be) to facilitate the implementation of DOO? If you passionately disagree with a practice, why would you help to facilitate its implementation and speed up the implementation of it elsewhere? If you're offered a s*** sandwich, do you chomp it down or push the plate away?

You work out your chances of victory and assess whether its actually a s*** sandwich or just not as good as what you had before. Nearly every union who has fought the Tories directly has lost and every group that has opposed technological advancement has failed eventually (except maybe the Amish). When Merseytravel is introducing DOO and TfL is reducing station staff under a Labour Mayor what chance do the Unions actually think they have of winning? If the Tories decide the fight is costing them too much they will transfer London stopping services to London Overground which will result in no OBS sooner. ASLEF seem to be neogiating how DOO will be implemented but not fighting it in principle and drivers are the only staff that actually neccessary on a train (for now). OBS will be phased out eventually but the more strikes there are the more incentive there is to speed up their departure. I am too young to remember the miners strike but I bet people argued that coal miners were necessary but we imported coal for a while and are now approaching the switch off of the last UK coal power plants. Drivers job will get tougher but pay will increase and make the job more desirable for people outside of the industry to apply for.

The extreme language used to describe normal private sector job contracts makes me wonder what kind of lives railway staff think most people actually have?! Life is pretty good for most people!

 

[northwichcat]

We're all f*****. Now you rail staff stop causing trouble, bend over and embrace a jolly good rodgering.

I've said it a few times now, but for all the people who just want rail staff to accept DOO, stop resisting it and continuously try to convince people here, what is the incentive for the unions and rail staff (particularly ex-Guards to be) to facilitate the implementation of DOO? If you passionately disagree with a practice, why would you help to facilitate its implementation and speed up the implementation of it elsewhere? If you're offered a s*** sandwich, do you chomp it down or push the plate away?

Would you like it if you had to use 20 year old computers and mobiles because it's better for jobs to use older more complicated methods? Or would you like longer queues and more errors at supermarket checkouts so people can be employed to put price tags on items? The RMT have called strikes over DOO on new trains when they haven't even seen a full scale mockup of the new trains. Why are the RMT in such a rush? Why not wait until both the operator and ASLEF are ready to discuss the plans in full. The only reason seems to be they want to get guards in the North to strike while the Southern dispute is still going on to cause maximum disruption and to increase publicity.

 

[the sniper]

If the situation is not what they want it to be for the longer term then they are free to look elsewhere for a different job - it's no different to what everyone else has to do.

True. But in the mean time...

Merseyrail have said that is a guard strikes three times then they will not be considered for a driver position.

I wouldn't call that an incentive... That only serves to antagonise people and strengthen feeling against their employer. It's like they learnt nothing from Southern.

Plus, they're not saying that someone who makes the massive call to do nothing, support the company, oppose their union and turn their back on many of their colleagues or even friends (right or wrong, that is the reality of doing so) will be offered security, a driving job. Merseyrail are mealy saying, for the sacrifice that person makes, they'll consider your application for that job when it comes up... What a joke! That person still has to jump through all the hoops, with no favour being given for the sacrifices they've made for the good of the company. It's not an incentive, it's a p*** take!

You work out your chances of victory and assess whether its actually a s*** sandwich or just not as good as what you had before.

I think a lot of people though protest against things on the basis of defending principles and beliefs. Surely this is what spurred Peter Wilkinson's fighting talk? On the other hand, the incentives for doing nothing, to assist the TOC/DfT to execute DOO/McNulty, are...?

 

[ComUtoR]

Merseyrail have said that is a guard strikes three times then they will not be considered for a driver position.

Is that legal ? Sounds very discriminatory to me and effectively bullying.

 

[74A]

Is that legal ? Sounds very discriminatory to me and effectively bullying.

I'm sure Merseyrail consider going on strike bullying.

 

[the sniper]

I'm sure Merseyrail consider going on strike bullying.

You sure? I don't think they're so delicate. I'm not sure though.

I think it's safe to say they consider the industrial action legal or I presume we'd have heard something by now.

 

[Carlisle]

Is that legal ? Sounds very discriminatory to me and effectively bullying.

I doubt many employees in most other ndustries nowadays who are undertaking a long period of potentially quite disruptive industrial action for whatever reason against their firm, would seriously expect to gain a very significant promotion from the same employer during or immediately after the dispute.

However I suppose industrial relations on the railway has often been a bit more complex with a long tradition of promoting some hard line trade unionists to management roles attempting to bring them and hopefully much of the workforce on side

 

[313103]

I think a lot of people though protest against things on the basis of defending principles and beliefs. Surely this is what spurred Peter Wilkinson's fighting talk? On the other hand, the incentives for doing nothing, to assist the TOC/DfT to execute DOO/McNulty, are...?

I can answer this by saying the incentive for doing is erm actually NOTHING! You do nothing you get nothing, strangely a analogy that is used quite common in the work place. You do nothing you get paid nothing (doesn't apply to politicians mind).

Once these companies have reduced there workforce to a low level does that mean the companies will stop being to heavy with Managers? I have to answer to a supervisor, who has to answer to the local manager, who has to answer to the regional manager, who has to answer to the Head of Stations, who has to answer to the Customer Service director, who has to answer to the Managing Director, who has to answer to Arriva Rail UK director, who has to answer to the Head of DB Regio. Nothing like being top heavy with managerial layers, they never had this many managers when the railway employed 200,000 people, now the industry has about 90,000 all told it appears there is a manager for about ten other ordinary members of staff. I dont see these being told to find work elsewhere.

 

[DT611]

DOO will enable Merseytravel to pay for its own rolling stock and have lower opperating costs. There are clear benefits of this for passengers

benefits to passengers in the form of Fare increases? It sure as hell won't be fare reductions.

Merseyrail have said that is a guard strikes three times then they will not be considered for a driver position.

And hopefully that will be negotiated away by the union as part of any negotiations.

 

[Robertj21a]

[edit]

I wouldn't call that an incentive... That only serves to antagonise people and strengthen feeling against their employer. It's like they learnt nothing from Southern.

Plus, they're not saying that someone who makes the massive call to do nothing, support the company, oppose their union and turn their back on many of their colleagues or even friends (right or wrong, that is the reality of doing so) will be offered security, a driving job. Merseyrail are mealy saying, for the sacrifice that person makes, they'll consider your application for that job when it comes up... What a joke! That person still has to jump through all the hoops, with no favour being given for the sacrifices they've made for the good of the company. It's not an incentive, it's a p*** take!

In all honesty, I can't see how Merseyrail can guarantee anyone a driving job before they are even assessed to know if they meet the required standard. Existing drivers would surely be up in arms if new drivers were taken on at a different level of ability ?

Much of your frustration appears to come from the (understandable) attitude of '.....we're all in this together chaps - united we stand.......etc'. That's all very good when there's some hope of achieving change but, to most people, you're fighting a battle that is already lost.

I would hope that many who may be affected by these changes are already looking at what alternative jobs exist, whether they stay with the railways or go elsewhere.

 

[Dave1987]

In all honesty, I can't see how Merseyrail can guarantee anyone a driving job before they are even assessed to know if they meet the required standard. Existing drivers would surely be up in arms if new drivers were taken on at a different level of ability ?

Much of your frustration appears to come from the (understandable) attitude of '.....we're all in this together chaps - united we stand.......etc'. That's all very good when there's some hope of achieving change but, to most people, you're fighting a battle that is already lost.

I would hope that many who may be affected by these changes are already looking at what alternative jobs exist, whether they stay with the railways or go elsewhere.

All I get from you and your hardline Tory way of thinking is the economy is now based on short term contracts, zero hours contracts or false employment like Uber or Amazon. Sort of 'That's just the way the economy is so tough'. So in the modern economy people are not entitled to any kind of job security and have be at the mercy of their next employer with regards to working conditions. What a horrible economy to work and live in. If that is the Tory vision of the future economy then I'm never voting Tory ever again. I was always under the impression that Tories were on the side of those who wanted to work hard and get on in life, clearly not! The chancellor was only concerned about this exploitative 'gig' economy because he wasn't getting enough tax from them.

 

[Chester1]

All I get from you and your hardline Tory way of thinking is the economy is now based on short term contracts, zero hours contracts or false employment like Uber or Amazon. Sort of 'That's just the way the economy is so tough'. So in the modern economy people are not entitled to any kind of job security and have be at the mercy of their next employer with regards to working conditions. What a horrible economy to work and live in. If that is the Tory vision of the future economy then I'm never voting Tory ever again. I was always under the impression that Tories were on the side of those who wanted to work hard and get on in life, clearly not! The chancellor was only concerned about this exploitative 'gig' economy because he wasn't getting enough tax from them.

This post is litterally what I described yesterday about people who think they have a job for life thinking most of the private sector is terrible. There is a huge sensible middle ground between jobs for life and what you have just described. If permenant staff were being made redundant I would be sympathetic but this should be avoided on Merseyrail.

 

[Robertj21a]

True. But in the mean time...



I wouldn't call that an incentive... That only serves to antagonise people and strengthen feeling against their employer. It's like they learnt nothing from Southern.

Plus, they're not saying that someone who makes the massive call to do nothing, support the company, oppose their union and turn their back on many of their colleagues or even friends (right or wrong, that is the reality of doing so) will be offered security, a driving job. Merseyrail are mealy saying, for the sacrifice that person makes, they'll consider your application for that job when it comes up... What a joke! That person still has to jump through all the hoops, with no favour being given for the sacrifices they've made for the good of the company. It's not an incentive, it's a p*** take!



I think a lot of people though protest against things on the basis of defending principles and beliefs. Surely this is what spurred Peter Wilkinson's fighting talk? On the other hand, the incentives for doing nothing, to assist the TOC/DfT to execute DOO/McNulty, are...?

All I get from you and your hardline Tory way of thinking is the economy is now based on short term contracts, zero hours contracts or false employment like Uber or Amazon. Sort of 'That's just the way the economy is so tough'. So in the modern economy people are not entitled to any kind of job security and have be at the mercy of their next employer with regards to working conditions. What a horrible economy to work and live in. If that is the Tory vision of the future economy then I'm never voting Tory ever again. I was always under the impression that Tories were on the side of those who wanted to work hard and get on in life, clearly not! The chancellor was only concerned about this exploitative 'gig' economy because he wasn't getting enough tax from them.

Not at all sure where any of that has come from. I've not referred to Tories, or short term/zero hour contracts. Are you sure you're replying to the right post ?
As you've raised it, I don't see this as anything to do with Tories, or indeed the government, or chancellor. This is an issue to do with those in Merseyside [aren't they mostly Labour-supporters?] ordering new trains with modern features suitable for the 21st century. There's no good reason why they can't be operated as they propose but rail staff are, understandably, worried about their future.

We'd all like good, long-term, job security. That's not so certain nowadays as the pace of change, globalisation, automation and costs/profitability may all require revised practices.

Change can be good as well as bad. There's plenty of people about who, with hindsight, recognised that an unwanted change proved to be for the better.

 

[northwichcat]

In all honesty, I can't see how Merseyrail can guarantee anyone a driving job before they are even assessed to know if they meet the required standard. Existing drivers would surely be up in arms if new drivers were taken on at a different level of ability ?

Isn't what they said trainee driver roles will be offered first to existing guards? So I imagine they'll advertise to internal candidates only and only open it up to non-Merseyrail employees if it's not possible to find a suitable candidate internally. Other employers like the NHS, the BBC and many Universities use that method of recruitment for some roles, so it's not a new or unusual approach.

 

[313103]

You have got to love this attitude of 'Working for Life' i wonder if Nurses or Doctors did the same thing do there training and after a short period of time leave to do something outside of what they have been trained to do, the country would be up in arms about it, imagine going to the GP and every visit was with someone different you wouldn't be happy about that. The police and fire service would collapse if they had staff that was a forever revolving door.

Amazing we expect people in these industries to stay, but heaven forbid if you want a career in the rail industry.

 

[northwichcat]

You have got to love this attitude of 'Working for Life' i wonder if Nurses or Doctors did the same thing do there training and after a short period of time leave to do something outside of what they have been trained to do, the country would be up in arms about it, imagine going to the GP and every visit was with someone different you wouldn't be happy about that.

If I'm ill and phone the doctor's surgery for an appointment I can request a specific doctor but if I do I might not be seen for a few days, if I accept an appointment with whoever has a spare slot I might be seen within 2 hours phoning up. Consequently, I rarely see the same doctor that I saw last time. I'm not unhappy about that provided I get offered an appointment within an acceptable time frame.

The police and fire service would collapse if they had staff that was a forever revolving door.

When a local shopkeeper in my town retired he told everyone the shop has been bought by a retired firefighter. The retired firefighter turned out to be under 40, so he wasn't exactly in the service for life!

but heaven forbid if you want a career in the rail industry.

Comparing police or fire personnel with rail personnel isn't a good comparison. Do guards get removed from front line duty if they can't run from one end of the train to another in a certain time?

 

[Clip]

All I get from you and your hardline Tory way of thinking is the economy is now based on short term contracts, zero hours contracts or false employment like Uber or Amazon. Sort of 'That's just the way the economy is so tough'. So in the modern economy people are not entitled to any kind of job security and have be at the mercy of their next employer with regards to working conditions. What a horrible economy to work and live in. If that is the Tory vision of the future economy then I'm never voting Tory ever again. I was always under the impression that Tories were on the side of those who wanted to work hard and get on in life, clearly not! The chancellor was only concerned about this exploitative 'gig' economy because he wasn't getting enough tax from them.

Strangely not once has he ever posted that he agrees with zero hour contracts or short term contracts he is merely pointing out that outside of the railway this is what people have to deal with - its a terrible thing to say but he is right in that job security is now not a given especially with the march of technology.

You can disagree with him, and in some cases I do too, but you need to stop imagining what he has said and concentrate on what he has said as it makes you come across as very petty

 

[Robertj21a]

You have got to love this attitude of 'Working for Life' i wonder if Nurses or Doctors did the same thing do there training and after a short period of time leave to do something outside of what they have been trained to do, the country would be up in arms about it, imagine going to the GP and every visit was with someone different you wouldn't be happy about that. The police and fire service would collapse if they had staff that was a forever revolving door.

Amazing we expect people in these industries to stay, but heaven forbid if you want a career in the rail industry.

Not for the first time, you've quite lost me. If there's an agreement about no compulsory redundancy what is stopping you having 'a career in the rail industry' ?
It sounds rather like you not only want a guaranteed job for life, in the rail industry, but you actually also want to have exactly the same job throughout as well. If so, I'm afraid that big bad world is going to catch up with you.

 

[Clip]

Not for the first time, you've quite lost me. If there's an agreement about no compulsory redundancy what is stopping you having 'a career in the rail industry' ?
It sounds rather like you not only want a guaranteed job for life, in the rail industry, but you actually also want to have exactly the same job throughout as well. If so, I'm afraid that big bad world is going to catch up with you.

To be fair to him though it already has when they got rid of the guards on LO

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1500905

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1349667

 

[313103]

Comparing police or fire personnel with rail personnel isn't a good comparison. Do guards get removed from front line duty if they can't run from one end of the train to another in a certain time?

Oh but its ok to compare the salaries each are paid though, when it suits a political agenda.

 

[313103]

Not for the first time, you've quite lost me. If there's an agreement about no compulsory redundancy what is stopping you having 'a career in the rail industry' ?
It sounds rather like you not only want a guaranteed job for life, in the rail industry, but you actually also want to have exactly the same job throughout as well. If so, I'm afraid that big bad world is going to catch up with you.

Seems you do not read my posts, however i wont mention what happened to me as i have been told by the forum administrators to 'get over it'.

 

[Chester1]

Not for the first time, you've quite lost me. If there's an agreement about no compulsory redundancy what is stopping you having 'a career in the rail industry' ?
It sounds rather like you not only want a guaranteed job for life, in the rail industry, but you actually also want to have exactly the same job throughout as well. If so, I'm afraid that big bad world is going to catch up with you.

There is no legally binding agreement but its a promise from Merseytravel which is controlled by 5 Labour run councils who are not going to turn on the unions. The catch is that a lot of fixed term staff are being recruited and they will lose their jobs when the new trains are introduced and permanent guards are switched to other roles. 3-4 years for Merseyrail is still a great job oppertunity though and they know what they are signing up to.

There is a difference between a career and a job for life. Working life is being extended to roughly 50 years (e.g. 18-68) and that fundmentally changes the world of work. I view my job as my first career. I have the aim of paying off my mortgage and building up a good pension by 50. With capital, no mortgage and no need to make pension contributions I will free to semi retire or switch to less stressful work for 20 years, I will also hopefully still have parents then and they will need my time and energy. Its understably a very vauge plan currently but its reflective of the changes that my generation will face. Its unrealistic to expect a job for life or leaving work at 60 when your likely to live to nearly or past 90. Train staff are not exempt from these changes and frankly swtiching from safety critical roles for the last part of peoples working life sounds sensible. Many of Merseyrails permanent guards will be in their 50s and there are 60 OBS roles. There are currently 220 guards but many of them will leave and be replaced by fixed term contract staff in the next 5 years. Its likely that nearly half of permanent guards will become OBS, some will become drivers and the rest customer service staff but on a guards pay.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh but its ok to compare the salaries each are paid though, when it suits a political agenda.

So your defence for your lousy argument is others make lousy arguments. :roll:

Based on your argument you'd be happy with guards aged 50+ being moved off front line duties in to ticket office roles as long as they have a railway career for life, to be on a par with the police and fire service. A job in an industry for life is not the same as retaining the same role for life.

 

[northwichcat]

The catch is that a lot of fixed term staff are being recruited and they will lose their jobs when the new trains are introduced and permanent guards are switched to other roles. 3-4 years for Merseyrail is still a great job oppertunity though and they know what they are signing up to.

As has been pointed out before 'fixed term contracts' of over 2 years entitle the employee to redundancy pay at the same level of those not on fixed terms with over 2 years service, so not a bad deal.