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RMT concern over intercity express project

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Flamingo

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Will this affect the way the air conditioning system is designed (air conditioning in the whole carriage including vestibule or just in the passenger area type thing)? I'm just wondering how wanting a droplight might affect the rest of the train design.

I would imagine having a droplight with some sort of locking system that can be opened by the guard during dispatch, and locked out of use the rest of the time should be considered.
 
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Well I've just applied for a Job as trainee guard although I suspect my chances of actually getting it are slim so I should disagree with you, but I don't I totally agree with you, the Railway should be looking to implement more DOO.

Job protectionism in the long term is not good in any industry

Well you are really going to be popular at your depot<D
 

PermitToTravel

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Will this affect the way the air conditioning system is designed (air conditioning in the whole carriage including vestibule or just in the passenger area type thing)? I'm just wondering how wanting a droplight might affect the rest of the train design.
I believe that 442s have a droplight at every window that is normally latched, and can be released with a T-key
There was one who had the radio on and was listening to the football!
Most of the punters will have appreciated that!
However in my experiences guards stayed in the rear cab!
Your experiences were most atypical. LO guards were the majority of the time to be found in the saloon, per company policy, apart from at rush hour (when their being in the saloon would delay the train) or sometimes late at night.
 

LowLevel

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Just one other point now I've slept on it - why do people always fly towards the cheapest option. There's no question guard dispatch is safer but it costs more. Yet in plenty of other countries that have well respected railway operations most if not all trains have guards - Japan, I believe even New York still has conductors on it's subway except one or two lines, and many places throughout Europe.

The question no one ever answers is why is it a disciplinary offence for a guard or dispatcher not to observe the departure of the train from the platform, and yet it's acceptable for a driver not to do so because it makes the system unworkable - don't use the system that is entirely set up to save money at the cost of safety!

Need to see more things like the telling off TPE got for removing platform staff at Manchester Airport - they did the same for that well known quiet backwater Newcastle Central with it's straight as a die platforms, and look what happened there - trapped in the doors and dragged :-/
 

northwichcat

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OK, jcollins, good point... we're up to a maximum of 10p then :lol:

Personally I'd rather pay that extra 10p (if it really did work like that; I'm not convinced!) to have a member of staff visible on the train, and I'm pretty sure I'm in the majority there!

As I pointed out later on it doesn't seem like there are actually any plans for IEP trains to operate without a conductor/train manager but there would be an option for the driver to release and close the doors which RMT are unhappy about.
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Need to see more things like the telling off TPE got for removing platform staff at Manchester Airport - they did the same for that well known quiet backwater Newcastle Central with it's straight as a die platforms, and look what happened there - trapped in the doors and dragged :-/

I get the impression overall TPE have increased the number of staff on platforms recently. There certainly seem to be more around when I've used TPE services compared to a few years ago.
 

47802

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Just one other point now I've slept on it - why do people always fly towards the cheapest option. There's no question guard dispatch is safer but it costs more. Yet in plenty of other countries that have well respected railway operations most if not all trains have guards - Japan, I believe even New York still has conductors on it's subway except one or two lines, and many places throughout Europe.

The question no one ever answers is why is it a disciplinary offence for a guard or dispatcher not to observe the departure of the train from the platform, and yet it's acceptable for a driver not to do so because it makes the system unworkable - don't use the system that is entirely set up to save money at the cost of safety!

Need to see more things like the telling off TPE got for removing platform staff at Manchester Airport - they did the same for that well known quiet backwater Newcastle Central with it's straight as a die platforms, and look what happened there - trapped in the doors and dragged :-/

I was in New York a few weeks ago and noticed the subway still had guards, however many routes on the London Underground haven't had guards for years are they any less safe?
 

starrymarkb

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Why have the unions in Paris allowed metro staffing levels to be cut so significantly then ? (Even to the point of staffless trains on one line? ) I had been under the impression French unions are far more militant than their British equivalents and will strike sometimes at the drop of a hat , so I'm not really sure how the system has ended up as critically understaffed as you describe above

I understand the RATP worked with the Unions with replacement roles found elsewhere in RATP (ie Tram drivers etc - the Metro is more Tramlike then most underground systems) and Generous payoffs for those that took redundancy (ie not the Minimum).

The French VAL systems are fully unstaffed, though there did seem to be a heavy security presence (with Armed Police) in the evenings on the Lille system.
 
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Carlisle

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Cheers that's Interesting , I did not know that , I could only find out through a quick glance at Wikipedia that there have been disputes in other countries like Denmark over plans for extending the use of DOO trains ,also the few times I have travelled on London overground 378s I always saw the guard in the saloon
 
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Fincra5

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So it seems to be another 'bash the guard' thread. At the end of the day, when it all goes wrong Passengers are glad to see them.
Before you say how "pointless" and a "waste of money" Guards are. Think how valuable YOUR job is really...
As its been shown passengers have had no savings on ticket costs from the staffing costs. Shareholders and managers (of which there are FAR too many) get more pay.
Most drivers like having a Guard there, they have enough to do without worrying about passengers or doors and dispatch (door control).
Most of the Guards on Southern I see out an about, maybe not on the 4 min Hove shuttle, but you get my drift.
 

LowLevel

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I always do my best to be out and about, especially on long distance trains. I was working recent when the toilet vomited it's contents all over a passenger and her belongings, plus the vestibule. In between helping her sort herself out, locking and labelling the toilet, ringing customer service and maintenance controllers to get the toilet fixed, writing in the fault book, writing a report for the lady to have saying I'd witnessed the fault and damage to her belongings and doing my doors and announcements, I still made an announcement saying I was too busy to do a ticket check but I'd pass quickly through the train so stop me if you want a ticket or to make an enquiry.

It helped me remain visible but if the train was any longer I'd not have managed it.
 

Fincra5

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Exactly there are other duties and priorities over and above revenue... people seem to forget that, as evident on here...
 

starrymarkb

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Cheers that's Interesting , I did not know that , I could only find out through a quick glance at Wikipedia that there have been disputes in other countries like Denmark over plans for extending the use of DOO trains ,also the few times I have travelled on London overground 378s I always saw the guard in the saloon

I also think what helped was the driver for conversion was more trains per hour with ATO rather then pure cost saving. The French also fit platform edge doors for fully automatic operation (even on the surface)
 

LowLevel

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I was in New York a few weeks ago and noticed the subway still had guards, however many routes on the London Underground haven't had guards for years are they any less safe?

Who is to say which is more or less safe? It doesn't necessarily follow that NY are wrong and LU are right does it?
 

47802

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Who is to say which is more or less safe? It doesn't necessarily follow that NY are wrong and LU are right does it?

No it doesn't but it seems to me that that DOO has operated successfully on a number of metro and heavy commuter routes in the UK which are probably the routes most suited to DOO and why should I as a taxpayer pay for an inefficient railway system, (and lets not get into the arguments that I'm doing that already with a privatised system)

Now having said that there are other routes where the benefit of DOO would be more debatable in terms of staffing, On northern for instance you would still need a person on the train on many routes for ticket revenue even if you had DOO.

On intercity routes, well at the country end you still get stations with limited or no ticket facilities, as well as the unfortunately current dying breed of open stations, along with short platforms at some stations, passengers with queries about seat reservations, connections etc etc, so your probably still going to need somebody on the train as well as the driver even if you have DOO on Intercity services.
 
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A-driver

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No it doesn't but it seems to me that that DOO has operated successfully on a number of metro and heavy commuter routes in the UK which are probably the routes most suited to DOO and why should I as a taxpayer pay for an inefficient railway system.



Now having said that there are other routes where the benefit of DOO would be more debatable, On northern for instance you would still need a person on the train on many routes for ticket revenue even if you had DOO.



On intercity routes, well at the country end you still get stations with limited or no ticket facilities, as well as the unfortunately current dying breed of open stations, along with short platforms at some stations, passengers with queries about seat reservations, connections etc etc, so your probably still going to need somebody on the train even if you have DOO on Intercity services.


Is DOO successful? Is it safe? People say this on here but I am yet to see anyone making the claims giving any evidence...

There are undoubtedly far more incidents with drivers operating doors-stop short/wrong side release/closing doors on people running for a train as they can only see a narrow corridor in the monitors etc.

A guard is far, far less likely to do a wrong side release or open doors if the train is stopped short and will have an un debatable better view of the PTI than any driver can ever have.

Thinking specifically at my TOC which is all DOO, the number of stop shorts and wrong side releases certainly dosnt make me think it's overly safe. That's before looking at fails to call which may well be reduced by a guard buzzing up and saying "erm, you are remembering we stop at Letchworth arnt you?" As you bomb up to it at 80mph...
 

petersi

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Why do some stations have mirrors and some CCTV for DOO
As a passenger I am surprised that one mirror to dispatch an 8 coach train is safe. (The mirror are I think concave to the driver can see the whole train. )

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

A-driver

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Why do some stations have mirrors and some CCTV for DOO
As a passenger I am surprised that one mirror to dispatch an 8 coach train is safe. (The mirror are I think concave to the driver can see the whole train. )

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Mirrors are cheaper to install and maintain. Simple as that.

But you are right, dispatching an 8 car train with a mirror (especially at night) is far from safe. Basically sit there until you are sure that the train is clear and don't worry about the delay.
 

313103

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Is DOO successful? Is it safe? People say this on here but I am yet to see anyone making the claims giving any evidence...

There are undoubtedly far more incidents with drivers operating doors-stop short/wrong side release/closing doors on people running for a train as they can only see a narrow corridor in the monitors etc.

A guard is far, far less likely to do a wrong side release or open doors if the train is stopped short and will have an un debatable better view of the PTI than any driver can ever have.

Thinking specifically at my TOC which is all DOO, the number of stop shorts and wrong side releases certainly dosnt make me think it's overly safe. That's before looking at fails to call which may well be reduced by a guard buzzing up and saying "erm, you are remembering we stop at Letchworth arnt you?" As you bomb up to it at 80mph...

I note that since you posted this, it has all gone silent. A lot of what goes on on DOO routes is often covered up (unless its a serious incident) most of the wrong side door openings initially on LOROL were caused by the fact that drivers were operating on a semi DOO mode and automatically pressed the door release button at a AC?DC changeover point hence why the stopping of trains at these locations ceased about a year before the line went completely DOO.

It really gets my goat when someone says why should I pay more tax to keep an inefficient railway operating, who are you to suggest that a system that works is inefficient ? I bet if it was your job that is up for grabs I am sure you would say 'yes boss it is, when would you like me to leave'........... N O T ! You would argue the point about how valued a person you are to the business and without you the business would not be as successful as it is.

Please feel free to let us all know what you all do, then I can say whether your required or not as like the rest of you I ALSO PAY TAX!
 

Olaf

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Could you provide some evidence of that please?

Yes, refer to the business plans.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you have any evidence for that? (The first part I mean)

What is your evidence to the contrary?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Now that has made me laugh! I really didn't think anyone on this forum was foolish enough to genuinely believe that less staff/lower wages would seriously lead to lower ticket prices. Someone has been reading too much of the one sided evening standard and daily mail I think!

It would be the same effect as with the airline industry, telecoms,IT etc.

The wage bill is a substantial part of the operational costs, reducing the remuneration costs by eliminating repetitive positions eliminates those costs. At the moment only small numbers are being released so the impact is marginal and over shadowed by other cost increases but we are getting close were significant savings can be made.
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You could make a railway network fully automated with no staff at all, ie no drivers, no dispatchers, no guards and it wouldn't mean cheaper fares, it would just mean bigger profits for the company concerned managing it.

Sorry for being cynical but it's true, look at London Overground sacking the guards did we see cheaper fares of course we didn't and anyone who thinks sacking staff means cheaper fares is very much deluded.

TfL is making cuts because of the reduction in the grant (I think the Central Government grant) an in order to preserve services, and minimize impact on investment. The main beneficiary in this case is the tax payer that is subsidizing the railways for others to use. It may be painful, but we should expect more cuts to operational an capital budgets as the next phase of the financial crisis hits.
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I am seeing the usual wibblers wibbling the usual wibble on this thread. So to add to it:

Removing the guard from every train in the country will have precisely £0 impact on the fare that you pay. To think otherwise is naive in the extreme. The companies and private companies exist to make their shareholders the best return possible, in fact they are legally obliged to do so! Now, if you reduce your staff overheads massively by culling guards where do you think that money is going to go? Let me give you a clue, unless you are a shareholder, it won’t be your pocket! It also won’t go anywhere where you might see a benefit unless the TOC is forced to spend it!

Finally, why is it that people seem unable to grasp the central concept of a trades union? That is to protect the interests of its members! The RMT is hardly likely to welcome a proposals that finds its own members ( and funding source) cut massively!

That just sounds like political dogma.
 

BestWestern

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jcollins:1795412 said:
If we're really taking about what is safest couldn't it be argued the driver should release the doors and the guard closes them?

Err no. It is considerably less safe for the Driver to be in charge of door release. Where a Guard is in charge of door release there are safety requirements to ensure that the train is correctly platformed prior to releasing all passenger doors. This mitigates against a Driver stopping short, for example. Where the Driver releases doors there are generally no safeguards beyond their initial judgement immediately after bringing the train to a stand. Conversations with experienced DOO Drivers will almost always reveal that door incidents are very common indeed, the usual ones being stop shorts, wrong side door releases, and surprisingly even releasing doors when coming to a stand other than in a station (at a red signal usually). There are also the increased risks of SPAD incidents occuring on departure from stations because the Driver is concentrating on what the passengers are doing, as well as the obvious increase in the risk of platform incidents due to nobody observing the train safely leave the station. Some of these things occur frequently, often unreported, and they happen simply because it is not ideal for a Driver to have a constant, non-stop stream of safety critical tasks without a moment's relent for several hours. A station stop is a few moments for a Driver to pause from their intense concentration, gather their thoughts and prepare for the next leg of their journey. In an age of intense scrutiny of what is best and safest practice for train Drivers, it goes well and truly against every principle to be increasing the workload on these people by such a substantial degree, and as DOO spreads so the level of door incidents will go up considerably, along of course with assaults on staff and antisocial behaviour in general. And, to again clarify the point, no this bright new era will not come with the consolation of cheaper ticket prices!
 
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NX

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I've had three incidents this year where my driver has pulled up,short with at least one vehicle off the platform. If this was DOO we'd have injured passengers in the cess.

DOO = cheapest option.

NX
 

47802

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Err no. It is considerably less safe for the Driver to be in charge of door release. Where a Guard is in charge of door release there are safety requirements to ensure that the train is correctly platformed prior to releasing all passenger doors. This mitigates against a Driver stopping short, for example. Where the Driver releases doors there are generally no safeguards beyond their initial judgement immediately after bringing the train to a stand. Conversations with experienced DOO Drivers will almost always reveal that door incidents are very common indeed, the usual ones being stop shorts, wrong side door releases, and surprisingly even releasing doors when coming to a stand other than in a station (at a red signal usually). There are also the increased risks of SPAD incidents occuring on departure from stations because the Driver is concentrating on what the passengers are doing, as well as the obvious increase in the risk of platform incidents due to nobody observing the train safely leave the station. Some of these things occur frequently, often unreported, and they happen simply because it is not ideal for a Driver to have a constant, non-stop stream of safety critical tasks without a moment's relent for several hours. A station stop is a few moments for a Driver to pause from their intense concentration, gather their thoughts and prepare for the next leg of their journey. In an age of intense scrutiny of what is best and safest practice for train Drivers, it goes well and truly against every principle to be increasing the workload on these people by such a substantial degree, and as DOO spreads so the level of door incidents will go up considerably, along of course with assaults on staff and antisocial behaviour in general. And, to again clarify the point, no this bright new era will not come with the consolation of cheaper ticket prices!

Is it I seem to recall an HST an coming into Doncaster once but was held at the midplatform signal, the doors were released despite the train not being fully on the platform, the signal then changed and the driver unaware that the doors were open started to move down the platform at which point a member of the platform staff rushed over to the cab to get the driver to stop.

Oh and talking to friend the other day he was telling about his railway driver friend who apparently a few weeks ago managed to set off without his guard, after he thought he herd the buzzers for departure, obviously Im not going to say what TOC he works for or where it happened.

If DOO can be proved to be substancially unsafe compared to having a guard and cannot be improved by better views of the platform, icreasing use of ATO on the lines that are suitable for it etc then you might have a point
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I note that since you posted this, it has all gone silent. A lot of what goes on on DOO routes is often covered up (unless its a serious incident) most of the wrong side door openings initially on LOROL were caused by the fact that drivers were operating on a semi DOO mode and automatically pressed the door release button at a AC?DC changeover point hence why the stopping of trains at these locations ceased about a year before the line went completely DOO.

It really gets my goat when someone says why should I pay more tax to keep an inefficient railway operating, who are you to suggest that a system that works is inefficient ? I bet if it was your job that is up for grabs I am sure you would say 'yes boss it is, when would you like me to leave'........... N O T ! You would argue the point about how valued a person you are to the business and without you the business would not be as successful as it is.

Please feel free to let us all know what you all do, then I can say whether your required or not as like the rest of you I ALSO PAY TAX!

Right I stand by comment why should I as a Taxpayer pay for an inefficient railway?

It is not me making decisions about Railway safety but the HSE, although I suspect the Rail Unions would prefer to make all the decisions about rail safety.

I was made redundant last year when the company I work for decided to outsource IT, my job is now done remotely by people in the Czech Republic.

No I wasn't happy about it, buts that's frequently the reality in the real world, unlike the railways which appears to be the last bastion of union power.

And at the end of the day safety in all industries is usually a balance between Risk and Cost, and sometimes political expediency
 
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ANorthernGuard

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Ahhhh another good old we hate Unions and love DOO thread. Like a dance track released recently. Eat, Sleep praise DOO repeat.
 

kieron

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Ahhhh another good old we hate Unions and love DOO thread. Like a dance track released recently. Eat, Sleep praise DOO repeat.
Weren't the RMT awful for bringing it up? :)

I'm just wondering why it takes a highly trained member of staff, whatever the job title, to work out whether a train door is next to a platform before it opens.
 

A-driver

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Weren't the RMT awful for bringing it up? :)



I'm just wondering why it takes a highly trained member of staff, whatever the job title, to work out whether a train door is next to a platform before it opens.


That comment was pointless as it just shows that you have a complete lack of understanding why and how safety of the line incidents happen and a complete lack of knowledge as to what drivers and guards can see from the train etc. I'm not going to start answering your question as it purely shows your level of ignorance and arrogance.
 

Flamingo

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Weren't the RMT awful for bringing it up? :)

I'm just wondering why it takes a highly trained member of staff, whatever the job title, to work out whether a train door is next to a platform before it opens.
We could train a monkey to work out if the platform is there or not - unfortunately we can't train the general public to do the same <D
 

notadriver

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Weren't the RMT awful for bringing it up? :)



I'm just wondering why it takes a highly trained member of staff, whatever the job title, to work out whether a train door is next to a platform before it opens.


are you serious ?
 

PermitToTravel

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On the Underground a system called Correct Side Door Enable is used to allow trains to automatically determine whether or not they are alongside a platform. All platforms have aerials, and all trains have antennae (on both sides, at both ends). No doors can be opened unless it is safe to do so. If the system fails, then the driver can override it (but before opening any doors with it overridden, they should get out of the train and look down the platform). As the name would suggest, this also prevents wrong side door openings.

This only works when all trains are the same length, but a similar system could easily be developed for applications where this isn't the case (i.e. the national railway). One method would be to have two balises on each platform line, marking the start of usable platform area, and the end of usable platform area. Trains, which know how long they are, would only release the appropriate doors when the instruction is given by the driver/guard.

I understand that at least two classes of train already have a similar system, although true to the fashion of our fragmented railway, they are not compatible with each other.


This is the safest method.
 
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