RMT concern over intercity express project

[387star]

Got an email today regarding this project obviously the union is unhappy with the lack of clarity regarding guards duties

What confused me is that East Coast have raised concerns but cannot make any strategic recommendations to the DFT because the franchise will end soon... I thought East Coast was heavily related to the mindset of the DFT but obviously that is not the case

 

[Ships]

In a presentation given by one of the IEP team they talked fairly extensively about how it was built to accommodate DOO, drive/guard or a combination of the two. They had put some fairly serious effort into optimising this. What is the RMT issue?

 

[DownSouth]

Has the RMT appointed a new head honcho to replace Bob Crow yet? If not, it's probably just someone doing their audition to try and get the top job.

 

[313103]

There are serious concerns about this and the future merger of the thameslink franchise.

What we are about to see is the erosion of the guard and the implementation of the Mcnumpty report. The Guard will be removed from trains and replaced with No one. It is right that the RMT campaign against the reduction of staffing on the railways and bloody trust me I have been through this.

Not only is the Guards job at risk but also anyone who is a dispatcher as their jobs are also under threat.

No doubt sarcasm has won the day with at least one contributor on this thread :roll:.

 

[34D]

There are serious concerns about this and the future merger of the thameslink franchise.

What we are about to see is the erosion of the guard and the implementation of the Mcnumpty report. The Guard will be removed from trains and replaced with No one. It is right that the RMT campaign against the reduction of staffing on the railways and bloody trust me I have been through this.

Not only is the Guards job at risk but also anyone who is a dispatcher as their jobs are also under threat.

No doubt sarcasm has won the day with at least one contributor on this thread :roll:.

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

 

[313103]

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

Well 128 Conductors on London Overground lost their jobs (one of them being me) last November and the fares didn't go down then, in fact they even went up. So I don't think that getting rid of staff means the fares will go down, rather more the opposite.

 

[Class377/5]

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

It won't. Anyone who thinks it will is naïve. All that will happen is that the Government will put less into the pot with the farepayer still paying as much as he/she does.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

They don't, though. Rail staff salaries are but a very small proportion of a TOC's running costs. Cutting staff increases profit margins and the savings won't be passed on to the customer.

 

[Skimble19]

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

Im sorry if this upsets you, but it won't. It'll simply lead to a reduced staff presence which I'm sure you'll be the first to moan about during disruption when there's no staff around to help you!!!

 

[Olaf]

Well 128 Conductors on London Overground loss there jobs (one of them being me) last November and the fares didn't go down then, in fact they even went up. So I don't think that getting rid of staff means the fares will go down, rather more the opposite.

No, but the fares o not go up as much as they would have, and the money save is better invested elsewhere on the system.

 

[Skimble19]

No, but the fares o not go up as much as they would have, and the money save is better invested elsewhere on the system.

Could you provide some evidence of that please?

 

[AlterEgo]

No, but the fares o not go up as much as they would have, and the money save is better invested elsewhere on the system.

Do you have any evidence for that? (The first part I mean)

 

[Olaf]

It won't. Anyone who thinks it will is naïve. All that will happen is that the Government will put less into the pot with the farepayer still paying as much as he/she does.

This, and future governments are going to have to cut government expenditure in real terms - all public services can expect this. Now, if the railways were fully privatized it would not be a problem.

 

[Skimble19]

So I'll take that as a no; you can't provide any evidence for your comment.

 

[yorkie]

Now, if the railways were fully privatized it would not be a problem.

We'd have numerous problems, which can be (and have been - many times!) discussed in a different topic!

 

[A-driver]

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

Now that has made me laugh! I really didn't think anyone on this forum was foolish enough to genuinely believe that less staff/lower wages would seriously lead to lower ticket prices. Someone has been reading too much of the one sided evening standard and daily mail I think!

 

[alastair]

There are serious concerns about this and the future merger of the thameslink franchise.

What we are about to see is the erosion of the guard and the implementation of the Mcnumpty report. The Guard will be removed from trains and replaced with No one. It is right that the RMT campaign against the reduction of staffing on the railways and bloody trust me I have been through this.

Not only is the Guards job at risk but also anyone who is a dispatcher as their jobs are also under threat.

No doubt sarcasm has won the day with at least one contributor on this thread :roll:.

You understandably feel strongly about this,so can you explain something that has always puzzled me. If guards want to retain their jobs,why do so many of them hide in the back cab for the entire trip,not even walking through the train once,let alone checking some tickets and selling some fares? How can they trumpet about "presence" when they do this?

My experiences are based mainly on FGW turbo services and Southern. On SWT,they are much better and do walk through the train regularly(and on 444 and 450 trains they dont use the back cab).

I post as a passenger but would be most interested to hear from staff who post on this forum. Do the minority who do walk through and check tickets resent the "back cab lurkers"?

 

[Pugwash]

Now that has made me laugh! I really didn't think anyone on this forum was foolish enough to genuinely believe that less staff/lower wages would seriously lead to lower ticket prices. Someone has been reading too much of the one sided evening standard and daily mail I think!

Totally agree - all that will happen if costs are saved is revenue back to the DFT will increase. Greater Anglia are will be paying 266 million to the DFT over 2 years, no sign of any fare reduction.

 

[313103]

You understandably feel strongly about this,so can you explain something that has always puzzled me. If guards want to retain their jobs,why do so many of them hide in the back cab for the entire trip,not even walking through the train once,let alone checking some tickets and selling some fares? How can they trumpet about "presence" when they do this?

My experiences are based mainly on FGW turbo services and Southern. On SWT,they are much better and do walk through the train regularly(and on 444 and 450 trains they dont use the back cab).

I post as a passenger but would be most interested to hear from staff who post on this forum. Do the minority who do walk through and check tickets resent the "back cab lurkers"?

It is quite obvious that you didn't travel on London Overground where the Guard spent most of the time in the train (with the exception of busy trains) even up to the very last day, we were even praised by TfL for our customer service provision and help gain TfL a gold award for the provision of good quality customer service on LO and yet the same people who said all those nice things still went ahead and get rid of us!

I cant comment on other train operators as far as I know no guard lurks in the back cab on FGW turbo services because one does not exist, them having lost Guards as far back as 1993. 100% of Southern metro services went DOO in the late 1980s and I think only a small proportion of Guards are around I think mostly for the coastway services and maybe for long distance services of 12 coaches or more.

Where I now work most of the ATW Guards go through checking tickets on most trains, some in a very officious manner. Most FGW Guards will be working from within the train and must be in the rear most vestibule when dispatching trains at the station I work in.

I would just like to add as well that the Guards primary role is NOT and I repeat NOT revenue protection, some of you think that is all they do or SHOULD be doing, if the job is purely revenue then not every train would have a revenue person on them. I don't think I could do the job to be honest handling the companies money has always been a worry for me (losing it, miss calculations and all the paperwork that goes with it, then there is always the confrontation as people don't like handing over money).

IT seems quite a few people within this forum have a very big bee in there bonnet about the back cab judging by the comments ive seen within this website. It appears that no matter what you always want the Guard to be visible 100% of the time. I know for a fact that quite a few passengers on the NLL were glad they got rid of us it meant they could carry on doing whatever they wanted without a member of staff telling them to stop it. I was even told by one person 'that he couldn't wait any longer for us to go' so he could carry playing his guitar and drinking cans of Tennets extra and special brew.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Rail staff salaries are but a very small proportion of a TOC's running costs.

ATOC reckon it's about 17% of the fare. That's not a small proportion.

Cutting staff increases profit margins and the savings won't be passed on to the customer.

Naturally.

My season ticket hasn't got cheaper after London Midland sacked all the ticket office staff. My Travelcard hasn't got cheaper since TfL sacked all the Overground guards.

London Midland are making bumper profits though...

 

[alastair]

I cant comment on other train operators as far as I know no guard lurks in the back cab on FGW turbo services because one does not exist, them having lost Guards as far back as 1993. 100% of Southern metro services went DOO in the late 1980s and I think only a small proportion of Guards are around I think mostly for the coastway services and maybe for long distance services of 12 coaches or more.

Thank you,I am well aware of that. For your information,the FGW turbo services I regularly use are North Downs line,Reading/Bedwyn and Oxford/Worcester and they all have guards. The Southern services were Redhill/Hastings/Ashford again all with guards.

 

[tsr]

313103 - There are guards on some Southern Metro routes (some in the Dorking & Guildford areas, etc.), although I agree that's the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of other Southern services will have guards for at least parts of their journeys, except those services branded Gatwick Express. As alistair says, there are also FGW guards who work Turbos, and indeed there are also extra TTIs being recruited for some routes.

I think it is accepted that whilst safety is always a priority for staff, revenue work is usually seen as a reasonably large part of most guards' duties at many TOCs. This is particularly important where there are a large number of stations with no ticketing facilities (many rural FGW stations, for example) or where there are several different routes & TOCs, which may mean tickets have to be checked and excessed/replaced on board, if need be.

I agree and quite appreciate that on busy trains it is sometimes not possible to walk through effectively. However, unless a service is crush-loaded (e.g. the WLL and some other urban services), most guards do seem to at least stay in passenger areas. This is important in order for people to feel safe, so they can ask questions, so they can hand in lost property, so they can get advice on delays... you name it... and if the train can be dispatched from door panels, then so much the better. Even if their Avantix isn't working or something like that, a commercial guard can still be of assistance in the saloon areas, just by walking up and down & taking questions. Most guards understand this and I have to say that I rarely find them to be in the cab without a reason which I can work out. So I have no problem with the current system, but I do think that saloon-based duties very often need to include revenue work as appropriate, and most staff have no problem with this.

 

[D1009]

In a presentation given by one of the IEP team they talked fairly extensively about how it was built to accommodate DOO, drive/guard or a combination of the two. They had put some fairly serious effort into optimising this. What is the RMT issue?

In that regard, how will the IEP differ from a Pendolino, Voyager or any other unit in which the passenger doors are operated by the driver?

 

[TheEdge]

Do the minority who do walk through and check tickets resent the "back cab lurkers"?

The feeling of rage currently coursing through my body at this comment has left an appreciable puddle of blood on the floor that has come streaming out of my eyes.

I'm only a new guy to the grade (a mere year out) but still. I have only stayed in the back cab out of choice once, and that was when on a Saturday night the drunks were causing me proper problems with carrying out my duties and I genuinely didn't feel safe. I also won't go through if people are stood down the aisle. Any other time (including when I've got a failed Avantix and there is no reason to leave the cab) I will go through the train. I also know I am not the minority, I am in the vast majority. In fact I get bored senseless when I stay in the cab.

The type of person I resent are people such as your good self, who seem to think guards are a combination of ticket Nazi, waste of your fare and generally pointless. People who don't appreciate that we, after arguably drivers and signallers, are the most safety critical role on the railway, fully conversant in the full range of railway safety and the day something awful happens to your train we'll be the ones making sure you don't end up dead.

 

[Clip]

The feeling of rage currently coursing through my body at this comment has left an appreciable puddle of blood on the floor that has come streaming out of my eyes.

I'm only a new guy to the grade (a mere year out) but still. I have only stayed in the back cab out of choice once, and that was when on a Saturday night the drunks were causing me proper problems with carrying out my duties and I genuinely didn't feel safe. I also won't go through if people are stood down the aisle. Any other time (including when I've got a failed Avantix and there is no reason to leave the cab) I will go through the train. I also know I am not the minority, I am in the vast majority. In fact I get bored senseless when I stay in the cab.

The type of person I resent are people such as your good self, who seem to think guards are a combination of ticket Nazi, waste of your fare and generally pointless. People who don't appreciate that we, after arguably drivers and signallers, are the most safety critical role on the railway, fully conversant in the full range of railway safety and the day something awful happens to your train we'll be the ones making sure you don't end up dead.

What an over emotive and stupid thing to say. Why would their comment cause you so much anger? Pretty sill isnt it.

Lets be fair here, and I know you say you have only been passed out a year, but you will learn that passenger perception and what is the truth are two very different things- like when they tell me that their train is ALWAYS late,it isnt but that is their perception. The same as the trains and stations are ALWAYS dirty and unstaffed- NPS and our own booking on information for stations show something different but that is the passengers perception.

This poster had a genuine query because it has been their experience and therefore their perception that just about everytime they travel they never see the guard on the services that have one - why does that make you so stupidly angry? Do you do guard duties on their services they travel on? If not then you cant possibly comment can you because you actually dont know so its silly to get all hot under the collar and come out with rubbish.

The reailty is probably somewhere in between for the poster - the guard does some duties inside some of the carriages on the services but the poster probaly doesnt see them because of where they sit or they have seen them once or twice buton the whole this gives them the impression that the guard is always in the back cab.

If you get so upset and angry over one passengers perception then I do have concerns about how you may handle proper confrontation with a similar situation - would you have blood pouring from your eyes because of your rage? I doubt it.

 

[TheEdge]

Hyperbole would probably be my answer to the whole of that post.

The point still stands, the vast majority of guards, are despite the posters assertions, hard working and do do all their duties to the best of their ability.

 

[Clip]

Hyperbole would probably be my answer to the whole of that post.

The point still stands, the vast majority of guards, are despite the posters assertions, hard working and do do all their duties to the best of their ability.

Sorry, Ill bow down to your greater knowledge on the subject then.

I never said anything about guards or their duties I am trying to explain to you about passenger perception and your lack of understanding of it shows on this post here.

Now go dry your blood crying eyes.

 

[LowLevel]

On FGW Turbo services operated by guards dispatch duties have to be done from the back cab, there's no equipment in the passenger saloons. On lines with regular stops that could make getting out and about tricky. Pad to Reading and Bedwyn trains don't carry guards so you won't see them. Of course the last time one of these DOO GW Turbo trains was involved in a major fatal accident was Ladbroke Grove. After the driver and all the passengers in the front coach were killed pretty much instantly it was noted at the inquiry that the remaining passengers were lucky other staff were on board in the rear cab to help evacuate them. On most DOO services that wouldn't be the case.

But as time goes by these incidents fade in the memory and people start itching to make cost savings again. Would you want DOO trains running through remote areas with no one nearby to help (emergency services or railway) because that is what McNulty proposes. Central London and the South East is one thing but remote areas are quite another.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

313103 - There are guards on some Southern Metro routes (some in the Dorking & Guildford areas, etc.).

I think I'm correct in saying that guards usually join a southbound train at Epsom, but the train remains DOO until Leatherhead (if it's a Guildford service) or Dorking (if it's a Horsham service). On Horsham services in the off-peak they usually walk through the train between Epsom and Dorking to carry out a ticket inspection, although that may happen less frequently now that both Ashtead and Leatherhead are gated.

 

[alastair]

The feeling of rage currently coursing through my body at this comment has left an appreciable puddle of blood on the floor that has come streaming out of my eyes.

I'm only a new guy to the grade (a mere year out) but still. I have only stayed in the back cab out of choice once, and that was when on a Saturday night the drunks were causing me proper problems with carrying out my duties and I genuinely didn't feel safe. I also won't go through if people are stood down the aisle. Any other time (including when I've got a failed Avantix and there is no reason to leave the cab) I will go through the train. I also know I am not the minority, I am in the vast majority. In fact I get bored senseless when I stay in the cab.

The type of person I resent are people such as your good self, who seem to think guards are a combination of ticket Nazi, waste of your fare and generally pointless. People who don't appreciate that we, after arguably drivers and signallers, are the most safety critical role on the railway, fully conversant in the full range of railway safety and the day something awful happens to your train we'll be the ones making sure you don't end up dead.

Oh for goodness sake please get a grip! For someone to jump to so many wrong conclusions really makes me wonder if you are in the right job.

I never said or implied any of the bizarre things you rant about in your last paragraph. In fact I commented that it was good to see the guards on my SWT trains walking through.

I did make the perfectly valid and reasonable point that I have travelled on maybe a dozen trains with guards on FGW and Southern in the last month and on only 4 of them did the guard make any appearance at all,let alone check tickets. Maybe that is not typical,but as a passenger I can only tell it as I see it.

I am very happy to have guards on trains, but if they don't make an effort to have a "presence" then they are surely undermining the role that the RMT promotes.

And I am still interested to know if the majority who do the job correctly resent the ones who don't. In most walks of life there are some people who do the minimum possible in a job and that can be a source of frustration to other staff who do put a lot into the job.

So please,calm down and mop up the blood!