Yes, because they're just that, ticket sellers who do not have the same safety training as a guard. In an urban area where the train is generally quickly accessible to the emergency services/railway staff, that's one thing. There a no point in having safety training if you just go without it anyway. Buy in deepest darkest North Scotland or up a mountain/in a 3 mile long tunnel in the Pennines? Not a great idea if you ask me. The same applies as well - all these little shacks in the middle of nowhere having to be heavily modified to be operated from without a guard (rebuilt platforms/lighting etc) as the driver can't move from inside the cab without a heavy time penalty.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
RMT concern over intercity express project
- Thread starter 387star
- Start date
- Status
Yes, because they're just that, ticket sellers who do not have the same safety training as a guard. In an urban area where the train is generally quickly accessible to the emergency services/railway staff, that's one thing. There a no point in having safety training if you just go without it anyway. Buy in deepest darkest North Scotland or up a mountain/in a 3 mile long tunnel in the Pennines? Not a great idea if you ask me. The same applies as well - all these little shacks in the middle of nowhere having to be heavily modified to be operated from without a guard (rebuilt platforms/lighting etc) as the driver can't move from inside the cab without a heavy time penalty.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
higthomas
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Nov 2012
- Messages
- 1,227
Can't they do what seems to be the case on many trains, whereby the guard closes all doors bar the one he's at, so that he can stand on the platform and watch the other doors, the get in a few seconds later and close just his door?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
When the 180s were at Northern they couldn't use SDO at Davenport and had to use local door operation instead. The reason apparently being because SDO on the 180s could only be used if the drivers released the door, while the RMT threatened strikes if Northern let the drivers operate the door and Northern weren't going to pay to modify them for what was expected to be a short period of use.
Last edited by a moderator:
The reason for a droplight is not so we can behave like we are on an HST like somebody cynically put but so we can see the whole of the platform in the seconds after the ready to start signal. The view on 15x (especially 158s is terrible) and for a large train the view out of a mk4 when giving 2 wont be much better. Usual reason is someone running for the train last minute and still trying to open the door as its moving .
bronzeonion
Member
If there's the option to do so, it will be taken advantage of! And yes tbh a large part is to do with who opens/closes the doors. Personally I do not think this is something the driver should do (wrong side door openings, SPADs etc) and yes i do have a problem with the way things are done on the Voyagers and Pendolinos.
I feel the risks with the PTI in this country are not taken as seriously as they should be. In no other environment do you have unprotected drops and gaps between solid platforms and moving, heavy vehicles where there is nothing to stop people falling down them. Safe train dispatch where the guard watches the PTI as the train leaves and departs stations with a way to stop the train is fast disappearing with many guards now encouraged to stand in the passenger saloon (where there is no view of the PTI) rather than in the rear cab where on the majority of trains there is a droplight for the guard to lean out and see the train in and out.
AnonymousUser1
Member
- Joined
- 10 Mar 2013
- Messages
- 1,010
from the point of the RMT because it's the status quo being broken and because the on train staff would likely be lower graded ( and therefore have a lower basic wage)
from a passenger point of view it would make little difference - they still have a happy smiling face * in TOC uniform in the passenger accomodation who can sell tickets, help with customer service queries and provide practical assistance to customers.
from a management and resilience point of view it provides the best of both worlds DOO trains meaning you can work without said person but not the adverse customer impact of no staff on train - not to mention the ticketing / gateline issues ( especially for a TOC where there are lots of currently unstaffed stations)
bottom line time - it would save some money if the on train person was not a guard (even if they were PTS trained etc etc for emergency and evacuation) as i suspect that anyone using any kind of job evaluation tool would be able to downgrade the role in such a way to drop the staff member a grade ( and if it doesn't why change the status quo see the tech vs AP saga in some ambulance services under AfC )
Excellent - now produce the millions of pounds in station improvements invesment required first - some stations of which don't see huge numbers of people to warrant it! I am fairly good friends with a manager who has been heavily involved with introducing DOO schemes on the railway and their belief is that it is unlikely to happen in the medium to long term for the most part because of the huge cost and disruption to bring everything from wayside halts to larger stations up to standard - however lines like for example the Cross City or Snow Hill lines in Birmingham are far more likely to happen with modern rolling stock and many largely modern/modified stations.
The service can still run without the ticket collector, profit hungry train operators will under recruit ticket collectors so the norm over time will be true DOO services.
As others have touched on in the thread, there are Guards who 'hide' in the rear cab and don't enter into the passenger saloon, however they are the bad apples that we have in every job. We also have Guards who are so ticket focused they neglect basic safety related duties, which has led to serious incidents.
Getting back to the original topic:
The IEP will be double manned, a driver and another. Who or what grade that another will be is up to the TOC.
The actual train is specified as compatible with DOO-P, DGO-D and DGO-G.
The ideal is DGO-G (Driver/Guard operation, Guard has full door control).
In my experience (over a decade in the grade), I've noticed DGO-D (Driver/Guard operation, driver opens/guards closes) costs time compared to full DGO-G. At XC and VT the Driver releases, then the guard gives 2-1 to the driver to close the passenger doors (driver repeats back) driver closes the passenger doors. Then the guard closes their local door, then give 2 Ready to start to the driver who again repeats.
On FGW (180 and Turbo DGO-D) a similar process happens, with the Turbos the only door controls are those in the rear cab, so on short hop services with stations as little as 1-2 minutes apart doing tickets is near impossible (safely).
With regards to the drop down window issue, I agree we should have stock with drop down windows so the guard can see the train out of the platform. It's very difficult to see out of a 158 door window or even a 150 for example. Your field of vision is dangerously limited.
DOO was conceived at a time when passenger numbers were decreasing, line closures were happening, the railway was seen as a dying network. Fast forward to the present day we have a railway growing, new lines being opened etc. DOO is unfit for a modern railway.
NX
Last edited:
NotATrainspott
Established Member
- Joined
- 2 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 3,304
I wouldn't ever think that the main InterCity or regional routes would go without guards. The IEP fleet will be used for much shorter distance travel as well for mainly commuting purposes, e.g. London-Oxford (high-density) and it's here where the DOO/ticket collector combination seems to not be as bad an idea. These trains tend to be packed and stop often, making it difficult for a guard to perform any revenue or customer service duties. I can't understand why there are currently some services which come into this category that have no second staff member on board whatsoever.
Long distance journeys where there will be a lot of luggage, irregular travellers and a wide variance of station facilities seem perfectly reasonable to retain their guards. When you have long distances between stops and few regular standing passengers the guard can still perform reasonable customer service duties on the train between being needed to do their despatch procedures.
313103
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 May 2006
- Messages
- 1,595
Thanks for that I am so glad you thought I was a waste of time, so much so that tfl listened to you and got rid of me. If I had not of moved 250 miles west (forced I hasten to add) I would of been unemployed keeping taxes high. I hope you do not have to go through the same s-/: as I had to go through and at my age. Perhaps I should say you should go through it then perhaps your attitude might change, but I won't lower myself to such levels.
Personally I would rather the guard could look out of a window during the dispatch process (well, whilst leaving the station) for various reasons, the main one being so they can be stopped if they need to a heck of a lot quicker than having to call the signaller... Try getting a guards attention on a MK4 compared to a HST, I can guarantee which will be easier for you!!!
Of course that doesn't need to be on all doors, it could just be one dedicated door for them, which I believe, despite the odd wording, is what they're actually saying.
Last edited:
There is a massive push to re-examine PTI. The biggest hurdle is cash.
I would rather stand in the saloon, well back from the doors with a clear view through one side of the carriage of the station platform as the train departs. While it may not offer as clear a view of the immediate side of the train as putting your head out of the cab window, you do not run the risk of the droplight catch slipping and knocking your head (it happens) nor is there the potential to become overly distracted by the dispatcher saying goodbye or something/someone else on the platform that may draw your gaze, and its just as easy to observe the run-on points and people remaining standing on the platform.
OK, jcollins, good point... we're up to a maximum of 10p then
Personally I'd rather pay that extra 10p (if it really did work like that; I'm not convinced!) to have a member of staff visible on the train, and I'm pretty sure I'm in the majority there!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This has been done to death. On many lines the answer is "no reason", indeed HS1 is similar.
But the whole country? Come on! That'd cost far more than it'd save. Who is going to pay for all the necessary equipment at places like Sugar Loaf, Rannoch etc? There will always* be a need for some trains to have traditional Guards.
(* in the foreseeable future!)
How many wrong side door openings or SPADs (and thinking about it doors being released when the train isn't fully platformed) have occurred on Voyagers and Pendolinos due to the driver releasing the doors?
I knew our staff loving poster would be along to stick the knife in, I did expect the number of posts to get into double figures before he started though.
I see we have another deluded individual that thinks our wages are the reason the fares are so high! :roll:
Maybe he should do some homework to actually see where the money goes, it might stop him posting so much inaccurate crap!
That is not always the case ,as 2 years ago I caught a busy local.electric service from Manchester airport to picadilly , the guard was busy selling tickets but as it involved frequent stops they kept having to go and release/close the doors midway through the task , so in that instance I think the SPT way would have been better but of course I know it won't be suitable for everywhere
Last edited:
I thought it's not profitable for Scotrail to do this though as they get financially penalised? I've never caught one of these trains and found there to be no on-board ticket examiner, though I am aware it can, and does, happen in rare circumstances. If you're saying that the penalty isn't high enough, then let's make it higher.
Of course it does, people are jealous of our pay, terms and conditions!
That would be nice but what about the share holders?
No they wont, they havent got a choice in most large Cities.
I agree entirely!
I dont work DOO at all but every time I get one on the bell it reminds me just how important the tail gunner is.
Every instance could be somebody under the train and if the guard wasnt there I wouldnt know a thing about it!
Yep indeed, I think we have been very lucky indeed that on the few occasions a DOO trains driver has been taken seriosly ill they have managed to get to a station.
I agree with the rest of your post as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can have nearly 1000 on one train during the morning rush hour!
This is substantiating your post!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do all services have a ticket seller on board though?
Answer-
No they dont because ScotRail can get away with running the trains without them, increasing the profit margin!
Last edited:
bronzeonion
Member
I agree about the cash issue but i don't think £ should come over safety and its sad that it does in alot of cases.
I disagree with the seeing the train out thing im sorry but the view from inside the saloon no matter how far back you stand is nowhere near as good as the view from a droplight! On Electrostars and Turbostars the window tops are too low to do this anyway and on any other train the seatbacks would be far too high to do this. Really only an empty 142 with bus seats is the only train you could do that on and even then you cant see the whole train length.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wouldn't know I don't have access to Virgin and Cross Countrys incident books.
Neither do I, but sadly that's the way it goes.
I don't disagree that it is an equally as good a view, but for seeing people run onto the platform/along side the train, it does the job. Add to that one too many a duff droplight catch and a sore chin, I'd rather stand in the saloon any day. Not to mention warding off accusations of lazy guard sitting in the back cab etc.
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
If anybody needs a reason why the guard needs to be able to keep their head out the window during dispatch, just read the reports on the case in Liverpool last year. Although the poor guard got done for manslaughter (and I don't wish to open that discussion again), the RAIB report said that she only approached the train after all the doors had closed.
If dispatching from inside a saloon door that is closed (like most units) on an unmanned platform, the only way we might know if anybody has gone under after we close the doors is if we spot bits of them splashed along the side of the train the next time we are platformed on the same side.
(I would have thought that this was blindingly obvious, but there is always somebody that needs it explaining in words of one syllable.)
PermitToTravel
Established Member
I don't really care all that much how many people staff a train I ride. I do care about the price, but I'm not naive enough to think that if they sack the guards they'll be generous enough to pass the savings on.
I do feel really uneasy, though, about the practice of dispatching trains with no one watching the gap as it departs, and am really quite surprised that it is permitted. How much more do droplight windows cost? Is it more dangerous, on DOO lines with in-train monitors, to allow the driver to watch the PTI until the train has left the platform as is done on some LU lines, including some manually driven ones?
I do feel really uneasy, though, about the practice of dispatching trains with no one watching the gap as it departs, and am really quite surprised that it is permitted. How much more do droplight windows cost? Is it more dangerous, on DOO lines with in-train monitors, to allow the driver to watch the PTI until the train has left the platform as is done on some LU lines, including some manually driven ones?
In descending order of preference (my opinion) the Guard is best placed to dispatch;
- at a droplight.
- in the saloon standing back from the door to give a wider field of view.
- in the saloon standing at the door.
Is putting droplights in modern trains, other than in the cabs, a realistic and viable proposal? I highly doubt. If everyone is carrying out their duties in a safe and professional manner, is there any need for a droplight? Again, I highly doubt. Do we want Guards consistently darting back to the cab with a droplight and neglecting customer service on the train? Again, no. Dispatch from the saloon is no less safe than from a droplight, as your direct obligation ends when you have completed your second train safety check.
Yes, there is still a risk with the platform-train interface as the train departs. But is the Guard with their head out of the droplight the best way to mitigate that risk? Again, no I don't think so. Platform staff (adding in your example), adjusted platform edges and education are best placed to handle that.
Last edited:
EssexGonzo
Member
- Joined
- 9 May 2012
- Messages
- 637
Does this mean that all GA commuter trains into Liv Street are bad?
As far as I'm aware they are DOO. In the 10 Years I've been commuting I've never seen a guard.
Delays, announcements, dispatching, etc.....no problems.
Am I missing something? Why is a guard needed and how would it make my journey safer, better, more pleasurable?
Our service is not "bad". Nor is it unsafe.
This is a job protection argument and not about service or safety.
Well I've just applied for a Job as trainee guard although I suspect my chances of actually getting it are slim so I should disagree with you, but I don't I totally agree with you, the Railway should be looking to implement more DOO.
Job protectionism in the long term is not good in any industry
Last edited:
bronzeonion
Member
I would say it is unsafe especially for dispatch of the train as once youre passed those monitors you are blind to what is going on in the platform unless you're looking back but even then you have to keep an eye on the road ahead too. Customer service to passengers could be better with a guard making more announcements and giving out useful information.
I don't understand why people want guards to be in the train so much in this thread!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an example of what I would class as a safe dispatch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd_u_91RO1o
That's a video from Tokyo but the whole procedure is not really that different from how it is here if a guard is working with a dispatcher on the platform from the rear cab. All JR trains in Tokyo and some Subway lines are worked conventionally with the guard being in full control of the doors and they spend their time in the rear cab all the time due to the frequent number of stops and obviously being the safest place to close the doors and see the train out from. They take the PTI very seriously and the UK railways especially London could learn alot from Tokyo.
The melody you hear is a departure melody which is pretty much an extended version of the guards whistle to let people know the train is ready to depart etc.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
Exactly what I've been trying to say!!!!Will this affect the way the air conditioning system is designed (air conditioning in the whole carriage including vestibule or just in the passenger area type thing)? I'm just wondering how wanting a droplight might affect the rest of the train design.
ModernRailways
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Apr 2011
- Messages
- 2,180
In my experiences guards on Overground have been a waste of time. They stay at the back and open/close doors. There was one who had the radio on and was listening to the football! Obviously, not all would have been like that and their would have been staff making themselves visible. However in my experiences guards stayed in the rear cab!
I'm sorry you lost your job, but things like this have to change... Nobody deserves to lose their job, but you just have to accept it with modernisation. The system has changed quite considerably since the old Silverlink days and it was bound to happen anyway with the 378s! There are hardly any other Metro style, suburban services that operate with guards (I believe SWT is the only one now).
- Status