RMT concern over intercity express project

[WatcherZero]

ATOC reckon it's about 17% of the fare. That's not a small proportion.

I believe that rises to about a third if you include non-frontline staff.

 

[Carlisle]

In that regard, how will the IEP differ from a Pendolino, Voyager or any other unit in which the passenger doors are operated by the driver?

Generally speaking I think it will differ mainly because all doors will be fitted with external CCTV cameras similar to the javelins,southern electrostars etc allowing full driver view/control of the them whereas pendilinos and voyagers etc don't have any , therefore require a guard to be part of the dispatch process amongst other things of course unless operating ECS

 

[sd0733]

Unfortunately, as a guard, I accept that some passengers view us a nuicance, either because we get money of them, because we mark a ticket and stop them using it again, or as someone who tells them off for putting feet on seats etc. The public perception of us is that we are the `ticket man`, there's not a lot of point getting upset about that, its a fact and unlikely to change.
All the units I work have panels at every door but it is still not always possible to to get through the whole train on a relatively short journey and so passengers in certain parts of the train could think I just sat in the back cab even though I don't go in there at all.
Also, there is the issue of doing doors which have to be done from certain doors on some of our routes and so we have to make sure we get to there and if we need to use uds we have to get in the correct cab and in enough time to do announcements etc to allow people to get in the right place and all these parts come way way above tickets. If I cause a 20 second delay at every stop getting to doors and we are then 4-5 mins late further on and then lose our path and end up very late I'm sure passengers would be more annoyed than not getting some tickets checked.
Yes, it can be frustrating that some guards do spend all their time in the back cab and I would be the first to accept that some do the case for retaining guarrds more harm than good but those guards are in the minority and you can only do your own job to the best of your ability and not get too worried about what others do, they are known to management as managers see their trains, feedback from passengers etc and their revenue figures so eventually it could well catch up with them anyway.
I always work my trains safely obviously as a first priority and anytime I get other than that I will do tickets and last year I took approx 2.5 times more than my salary in revenue so I pay my way for the company but never ever will I put revenue ahead of safety or punctuality as they are the bread and butter of the role but nor would I ever spend my shift hiding in the back cab.

 

[Aictos]

You could make a railway network fully automated with no staff at all, ie no drivers, no dispatchers, no guards and it wouldn't mean cheaper fares, it would just mean bigger profits for the company concerned managing it.

Sorry for being cynical but it's true, look at London Overground sacking the guards did we see cheaper fares of course we didn't and anyone who thinks sacking staff means cheaper fares is very much deluded.

 

[Jonny]

You could make a railway network fully automated with no staff at all, ie no drivers, no dispatchers, no guards and it wouldn't mean cheaper fares, it would just mean bigger profits for the company concerned managing it.

Sorry for being cynical but it's true, look at London Overground sacking the guards did we see cheaper fares of course we didn't and anyone who thinks sacking staff means cheaper fares is very much deluded.

Ah, but it removes one layer of previously essential-for-operation staff who might go on strike. It's not just about the fares.

 

[Aictos]

Ah, but it removes one layer of previously essential-for-operation staff who might go on strike. It's not just about the fares.

Okay the next time there's serious disruption and you're stuck on a unmanned service wondering what's happening, I let you come back to that short sighted view - I recently visited Paris and used the Metro which was a huge disappointment as not only was there a lack of visible staff but it was a eye opener to what McNulty and TfL etc want, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I would have done in London.

Less staff is going down a dangerous road, course it don't matter if it means higher unemployment or unsafe practices being used :roll:

 

[ModernRailways]

Okay the next time there's serious disruption and you're stuck on a unmanned service wondering what's happening, I let you come back to that short sighted view - I recently visited Paris and used the Metro which was a huge disappointment as not only was there a lack of visible staff but it was a eye opener to what McNulty and TfL etc want, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I would have done in London.

Less staff is going down a dangerous road, course it don't matter if it means higher unemployment or unsafe practices being used :roll:

Most other light rail systems cope with minimal staff though?

The T&W Metro (my local system) has no ticket offices, has a small staff presence at a few key stations during the daytime (staffing is being increased with the new gatelines).

It is in many ways very similar to that of the Paris Metro. I never feel safe in Paris, but go to another city such as Berlin and you feel a lot safer even though their are hardly any differences in staffing levels. The Paris Metro also has stations that are very close together and so should something happen then staff at the next station will be able to guide you out of the tunnels or mean you can walk down the tunnel.

No-one is suggesting completely unmanned services, just services without a guard. If you have a driver then you can still get announcements etc.

I hope you never leave London as staffing levels on other light rail/Metro/Underground systems is very different, with London being the only one I can think of that has such a huge staff presence!

 

[Carlisle]

Okay the next time there's serious disruption and you're stuck on a unmanned service wondering what's happening, I let you come back to that short sighted view - I recently visited Paris and used the Metro which was a huge disappointment as not only was there a lack of visible staff but it was a eye opener to what McNulty and TfL etc want, I certainly didn't feel as safe as I would have done in London.

Less staff is going down a dangerous road, course it don't matter if it means higher unemployment or unsafe practices being used :roll:

Why have the unions in Paris allowed metro staffing levels to be cut so significantly then ? (Even to the point of staffless trains on one line? ) I had been under the impression French unions are far more militant than their British equivalents and will strike sometimes at the drop of a hat , so I'm not really sure how the system has ended up as critically understaffed as you describe above

 

[Aictos]

Most other light rail systems cope with minimal staff though?

The T&W Metro (my local system) has no ticket offices, has a small staff presence at a few key stations during the daytime (staffing is being increased with the new gatelines).

It is in many ways very similar to that of the Paris Metro. I never feel safe in Paris, but go to another city such as Berlin and you feel a lot safer even though their are hardly any differences in staffing levels. The Paris Metro also has stations that are very close together and so should something happen then staff at the next station will be able to guide you out of the tunnels or mean you can walk down the tunnel.

No-one is suggesting completely unmanned services, just services without a guard. If you have a driver then you can still get announcements etc.

I hope you never leave London as staffing levels on other light rail/Metro/Underground systems is very different, with London being the only one I can think of that has such a huge staff presence!

Correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I checked London Overground was in fact a Heavy Rail System, besides why just leave Light Rail services with just drivers why not get rid of them and have fully automated service?

All I'm saying is you can run a service with minimum of staff BUT you like others seem to forget it won't make the slightest difference where fares are concerned, that's what I'm trying to say :roll:

 

[LowLevel]

There's a big difference between commuter trains and Great Western expresses with all the luggage and not particularly railway savvy passengers they convey - a driver in a cab can't hustle passengers, control safe loading of luggage or assist little old Doris with her bags to give safe and timely dispatch. Its all a bit academic anyway since with all the requirements for DOO, who is going to refurbish all these local Victorian era stations to comply with regulations just to have a customer service Bert rather than a guard on board?

 

[Clip]

There's a big difference between commuter trains and Great Western expresses with all the luggage and not particularly railway savvy passengers they convey - a driver in a cab can't hustle passengers, control safe loading of luggage or assist little old Doris with her bags to give safe and timely dispatch. Its all a bit academic anyway since with all the requirements for DOO, who is going to refurbish all these local Victorian era stations to comply with regulations just to have a customer service Bert rather than a guard on board?

That's a rather dderogatory term for a colleague. Oh yeah I forgot - those customer service 'berts' are just the **** on the shoe of guards and drivers. Nowt like looking down on someone or their grade is there

 

[LowLevel]

I call everyone bert, nothing derogatory involved, its just a word to describe a person - platform Bert, gate line Bert, ticket Bert. Its easier than referring to people by the silly modern job titles that prevail as an ex platform Bert myself!

I have to be honest and say I wouldn't see a basic customer service employee with no further training that bring polite and saying hello as an adequate replacement for a guard, any more than I would see them as an adequate replacement for a booking clerk or dispatcher.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Does this really have to desend into yet another rail staff slagging off rail users and vice versa, honestly this is getting boring

Now i'm the first to admit that for the railway to thrive it should be run for the people who use otherwise they'll simply stop using it but the fact is whether the guard is in the back cab or not they still provide a vital safety role, they in conjunction with platform dispatchers ensure trains leave the station safely, as a driver who does both DOO services and one with guards i feel a lot happier having a guard dispatch the train as they are able to see the train out of the entire length of the platform whereas if i'm using mirrors or screens if something happens 30 seconds after i start to pull away i'm none the wiser. Also if i become incapacitated the guard is responsible for protecting the train and preventing a bad situation becoming a potentially disastrous situation.

Now in an ideal world travelling by train would be an enjoyable experience with customer service staff both on trains and in stations and reasonably priced also but sadly in this day and age thats not going to happen although myself and many others in the industry try our best to make that happen, and anyone thinking prices wouldn't go up by as much or even go down is being very naive. Whether people like it or not railway companies are private businesses whose primary goal is to make money for themselves and their shareholders and if they did away with frontline staff all that would happen is that money would go to the shareholders and the customer would be even worse off.

 

[ModernRailways]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I checked London Overground was in fact a Heavy Rail System, besides why just leave Light Rail services with just drivers why not get rid of them and have fully automated service?

All I'm saying is you can run a service with minimum of staff BUT you like others seem to forget it won't make the slightest difference where fares are concerned, that's what I'm trying to say :roll:

You said TfL so I assumed you meant the tube as well.

Even so, I don't understand why guards were needed on London Overground. Whenever I've used it I've never saw a guard, because they were in the back cab operating the doors and that was it. I'm not saying they were all like that, but in my experience that is what happened. You also need to look at what has happened since. Have their been any incidents whereby having a guard on board would have been beneficial?

In my view, guards shouldn't be on Metro style services, such as London Overground, some Southern, SouthEastern, London Midland, Greater Anglia, FCC and South West Trains services.

In my view, FCC should have guards on any service north of Stevenage, possibly even Welwyn Garden City and on Thameslink services that go beyond Luton and East Croydon.

Back to London Overground, I'm a strong believer in the Travel Safe officers. The ones on the DLR are brilliant and I have had maybe one or two DLR journeys after 2100 where I have seen them! I am yet to meet one on Overground! Therefore I think the question that needs asked is 'Why is there a difference between the systems?'

 

[northwichcat]

Well 128 Conductors on London Overground lost their jobs (one of them being me) last November and the fares didn't go down then, in fact they even went up. So I don't think that getting rid of staff means the fares will go down, rather more the opposite.

LO has seen significant spending on new trains and station improvements though, which is something other areas of the country can only dream of. (FGW area improvements included using the 150s that LO no longer required.)

 

[Flamingo]

Sorry if I upset you, but if less salaries translate to cheaper fares then I'm all for it

I can have 1000+ different passengers on my trains in a day. If my days wages were divided amongst all these people, and the ticket price reduced by that amount, what do you think the average saving would be? 5p each? 8p each?

 

[northwichcat]

I can have 1000+ different passengers on my trains in a day. If my days wages were divided amongst all these people, and the ticket price reduced by that amount, what do you think the average saving would be? 5p each? 8p each?

Don't forget it's not just your wages that the employer pays. There's an employer's NI contribution to pay as well as HR costs involved with recruitment, payroll and the like. Presumably you also have employee incentives like a pension, free travel etc.?

 

[DarloRich]

I am seeing the usual wibblers wibbling the usual wibble on this thread. So to add to it:

Removing the guard from every train in the country will have precisely £0 impact on the fare that you pay. To think otherwise is naive in the extreme. The companies and private companies exist to make their shareholders the best return possible, in fact they are legally obliged to do so! Now, if you reduce your staff overheads massively by culling guards where do you think that money is going to go? Let me give you a clue, unless you are a shareholder, it won’t be your pocket! It also won’t go anywhere where you might see a benefit unless the TOC is forced to spend it!

Finally, why is it that people seem unable to grasp the central concept of a trades union? That is to protect the interests of its members! The RMT is hardly likely to welcome a proposals that finds its own members ( and funding source) cut massively!

 

[hassaanhc]

Back to London Overground, I'm a strong believer in the Travel Safe officers. The ones on the DLR are brilliant and I have had maybe one or two DLR journeys after 2100 where I have seen them! I am yet to meet one on Overground! Therefore I think the question that needs asked is 'Why is there a difference between the systems?'

I have seen them on the Overground, last week there were a bunch of them at Gospel Oak and some of them boarded the Barking DMU. Of course it depends on how "lucky" you are, I'm not a regular user of LO but I've seen them, whereas I'm struggling to recall when I saw them on the DLR which I've used loads over the last few months (unless the dispatch staff are also Travel Safe Officers?)

 

[swt_passenger]

The RMT is hardly likely to welcome a proposals that finds its own members ( and funding source) cut massively!

The RMT are apparently asking for drop lights in the IEP doors so that they can pretend they are still working on HSTs. Is that at all realistic?

RMT believes that Guards’
accommodation with drop-down
windows and all relevant safety
devices should be included in
any new rolling stock, and is
fully opposed to Driver Only
Operation.
It is essential for the Guard to
have complete control of both
the opening and the closing of
the power operated doors,
including selective door
operation. All doors must have
drop down windows for the
Guard to observe during train
dispatch

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/public-document-library/intercity-special-may-2014/

My bolding. So why haven't they asked for this this with Voyagers, Pendolinos etc?

There are other points made in the RMTs flyer...

 

[ModernRailways]

I have seen them on the Overground, last week there were a bunch of them at Gospel Oak and some of them boarded the Barking DMU. Of course it depends on how "lucky" you are, I'm not a regular user of LO but I've seen them, whereas I'm struggling to recall when I saw them on the DLR which I've used loads over the last few months (unless the dispatch staff are also Travel Safe Officers?)

What time of day though? They only seem to be on the DLR in larger numbers at night (from 20:00/21:00 onwards). I think it also depends on where you use the DLR. They tend to stick down Lewisham/Woolwich in my experience.

I still don't see the need for London Overground to have guards, they are a pointless waste of money in my view.

 

[northwichcat]

My bolding. So why haven't they asked for this this with Voyagers, Pendolinos etc?

There are other points made in the RMTs flyer...

If it's such a big concern why aren't the RMT pushing for trains which don't have separate crew doors to be modified or replaced?

 

[bronzeonion]

Too right they should be concerned, this is bad commuter trains without guards is one thing but express passenger trains without guards? This is crazy

 

[swt_passenger]

Too right they should be concerned, this is bad commuter trains without guards is one thing but express passenger trains without guards? This is crazy

Where's the evidence that any IEPs will operate in passenger service without guards at all? This seems to me to be arguing about the detail of who pushes the door operating buttons in the train, the 'train manager' or the driver.

So how come XC and Virgin drivers operate the doors if its that big an issue?

 

[northwichcat]

So wait a minute - RMT don't have any evidence that guard's are to be got rid of except that the new trains will allow the driver to open and close the doors. Isn't that already the case with class 180 trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This seems to me to be arguing about the detail of who pushes the door operating buttons in the train, the 'train manager' or the driver.

If we're really taking about what is safest couldn't it be argued the driver should release the doors and the guard closes them?

 

[DarloRich]

The RMT are apparently asking for drop lights in the IEP doors so that they can pretend they are still working on HSTs. Is that at all realistic?

Surely they mean in a crew door in the cab area?

So why haven't they asked for this this with Voyagers, Pendolinos etc?

Benefit of experience? I always think it is safer, if a guard is required to supervise the safe dispatch of a train, that he can stick his head out and observe the whole train out of the platform.You wonder what they can see when they stand at a saloon door.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is there some wonderful reason why the Strathclyde arrangement cannot be applied across the whole country? The driver is entirely responsible for the train and making it move but all services are diagrammed to have a ticket seller on board who would fulfil most of the safety roles of a guard. If the ticket seller person is unavailable the train can still run but it is never planned that way, making services more resilient against staffing problems. The ticket person doesn't have an excuse to hide in the back cab, even if it is busy, because they don't need to get to the door control panels whenever the train stops.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely they mean in a crew door in the cab area?

What they've written definitely refers to 'all doors'. Perhaps they are exaggerating...

 

[LexyBoy]

The RMT are apparently asking for drop lights in the IEP doors so that they can pretend they are still working on HSTs. [...] So why haven't they asked for this this with Voyagers, Pendolinos etc?

I might be imagining things but I think the guard's cabs on Desiros and 180s have droplights? I can see good reasons for this, a real view is far superior to CCTV (on a straight platform at least). Droplights on all doors however I agree is unlikely, and of course the guard may not be at the right place to use it, hence the "all doors" demand (maybe).

So wait a minute - RMT don't have any evidence that guard's are to be got rid of except that the new trains will allow the driver to open and close the doors. Isn't that already the case with class 180 trains?

Doors have always appeared to be guard-operated IME, can't say whether the capability is there or not though.

But yes, there seems to be a lot of fuss given that IEP is set to take over many services which are currently or were until recently entirely DOO (London-Oxford fasts and semi-fasts).

 

[DarloRich]

What they've written definitely refers to 'all doors'. Perhaps they are exaggerating...

Well you start high when negotiating............. and give the opposition the credit for beating you down to your actual starting position