RMT/ASLEF announce strike action on LU (suspended)

[Dstock7080]

London Overground were not involved in the dispute

 

[Goldfish62]

TfL are still advising of potential station closures despite the RMT strike being suspended:



Can anyone say if this is in fact likely, and why?

I think it's simply because part of the message hasn't been updated, which it should have been.

 

[MaidaVale]

Chiltern operate services on LUL tracks.

Chiltern would have been affected by the RMT strikes if they were going ahead, as they require LUL Power Control, Service Control, Service Operator and Stations grades to operate over LUL track and call at LUL stations, however as ASLEF do not represent these grades and mostly represent train operators, there is no reason on paper as to why Chiltern couldn't operate on LU ASLEF strike days.

 

[starlight73]

The message on LU’s website about station closures now doesn’t mention national rail - https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/strikes

Some DLR, London Overground (including Night Overground) and Elizabeth line services may not stop at certain stations with Tube lines. This is due to possible station closures

(oops sorry - realised this was already posted above)

 

[whoosh]

I assume the sticking point for ASLEF is pay parity so that Tube Drivers are on similar if not the same pay as London Overground and Elizabeth Lines drivers.

Whilst they are on less money, I think it more likely that there has been no movement in reducing the working week from a five day, average 35 hour week with 30 minute unpaid break per day (so a 37.5 hour week), as Elizabeth Line and London Overground are on a 4 day, average 34 hour week including paid break.

So Underground Train Operators have a fifth day of going to and from work, and are at work three and half hours longer per week.


It is also the case that many office workers at TfL now have hybrid working, where they can work from home, so have gained work/life balance. There has been no improvement for Train Operators, and they are lagging behind the whole of the rail industry actually, not just other TfL drivers, with a 35 hour 4 (or certainly less than 5) day week everywhere else.

 

[43066]

Whilst they are on less money, I think it more likely that there has been no movement in reducing the working week from a five day, average 35 hour week with 30 minute unpaid break per day (so a 37.5 hour week), as Elizabeth Line and London Overground are on a 4 day, average 34 hour week including paid break.

So Underground Train Operators have a fifth day of going to and from work, and are at work three and half hours longer per week.


It is also the case that many office workers at TfL now have hybrid working, where they can work from home, so have gained work/life balance. There has been no improvement for Train Operators, and they are lagging behind the whole of the rail industry actually, not just other TfL drivers, with a 35 hour 4 (or certainly less than 5) day week everywhere else.

I’ve never understood why LU haven’t moved to a four day week like the TOCs. Yes it means slightly longer days, but an extra day off per week surely more than compensates for that. Personally I’d do three twelve hour shifts if I could (as some signallers do)!

There were a few drivers on the mainline who wanted to stick with a five day week, but very much the minority, so surely it would also be overwhelmingly popular amongst underground drivers.

 

[Mawkie]

I’ve never understood why LU haven’t moved to a four day week like the TOCs. Yes it means slightly longer days, but an extra day off per week surely more than compensates for that. Personally I’d do three twelve hour shifts if I could (as some signallers do)!

1. It would require an entire rewriting of the Framework Agreements* that have been fought for over decades. (Specifically, the maximum driving times.)

2. I would argue 9/10 hours on an Underground train is quite different to the same time on a national rail service. (Serving 450 Station stops and PTI in a single shift doesn't sound pleasant.)

3. They trialled it on the Jubilee Line relatively recently and it was deemed a failure as the 4 day weekers tended to bin off their last few hours, which required one of the (spare) 5 day weekers to cover it, which caused some resentment.

*Not saying the Framework couldn't be rewritten, but I don't believe LU could be trusted to be fair, and not demand other "reforms".

 

[bluegoblin7]

Indeed, one of the main sticking points of 'four day week' on LU is that, quite aside from the fact it would need to be made to work for all grades, LU have made it clear that it would be in return for "productivity" gains. Indeed, my feeling (albeit I am not from train side) is that this particular element of Aslef's claim does seem to be re-opening the 'Trains Modernisation' proposals in a new guise.

 

[baz962]

Don't LU operators get more annual leave generally?

 

[Dstock7080]

Don't LU operators get more annual leave generally?

43 days
+1 for 25years service
+1 for 40years service

incorrect, now 36 days

 

[whoosh]

I’ve never understood why LU haven’t moved to a four day week like the TOCs. Yes it means slightly longer days, but an extra day off per week surely more than compensates for that. Personally I’d do three twelve hour shifts if I could (as some signallers do)!

There were a few drivers on the mainline who wanted to stick with a five day week, but very much the minority, so surely it would also be overwhelmingly popular amongst underground drivers.

As it is set up at the moment with 'The Framework Agreement' the maximum shift length is currently 8h00 (8h30 with unpaid break). The shortest is 4h00 (4h30).

The average currently is 7h12 (7h42) to make an average 36 hour week (excluding breaks). The difference between 36 hours and the contracted 35 hours is administrated by being given back as extra leave days. This isn't always explained very well by the press (or indeed the union) when tube drivers are said to have 43 days leave - some of that is actually their own time being given back to them!

There was a trial with a four day week at Wembley Park, North Greenwich and Stratford, which was also an average of a 36 hour week (with the extra hour given back as leave days), or a 38 hour week including the unpaid 30 minute break each day.
This meant an average of a 9h30 day including the break.
An exemption was made for the 'framework agreement' to extend the maximum duty to 9h30.

I don't know about you, but they are long days to be driving tube trains underground, and there was no opportunity within these parameters for any 4h00 'snip' turns which the current five day week contains on occasion.


I think the breaks need to be paid, or the working week reduced, to see a palatable move to less working days in the roster, and a more favourable comparison to other train drivers in the country.

 

[bramling]

I’ve never understood why LU haven’t moved to a four day week like the TOCs. Yes it means slightly longer days, but an extra day off per week surely more than compensates for that. Personally I’d do three twelve hour shifts if I could (as some signallers do)!

I think the monotony and intensity of the work would make it undesirable. With brutal honesty, there’s enough problem with people finding 8h 30mins too much, let alone adding to that, notwithstanding the extra rest day. I suspect it would end up leading to a situation where people want the four days, but don’t want to do - and trying everything possible to avoid - the extra hours.

There were a few drivers on the mainline who wanted to stick with a five day week, but very much the minority, so surely it would also be overwhelmingly popular amongst underground drivers.

Culture on mainline is rather different to mainline.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

I’ve never understood why LU haven’t moved to a four day week like the TOCs. Yes it means slightly longer days, but an extra day off per week surely more than compensates for that. Personally I’d do three twelve hour shifts if I could (as some signallers do)!

I think the monotony and intensity of the work would make it undesirable. With brutal honesty, there’s enough problem with people finding 8h 30mins too much, let alone adding to that, notwithstanding the extra rest day. I suspect it would end up leading to a situation where people want the four days, but don’t want to do - and trying everything possible to avoid - the extra hours.

There were a few drivers on the mainline who wanted to stick with a five day week, but very much the minority, so surely it would also be overwhelmingly popular amongst underground drivers.

Culture on mainline is rather different to mainline.

 

[baz962]

43 days
+1 for 25years service
+1 for 40years service

34 at Overground and 36 after 5 years

 

[boiledbeans2]

I think the monotony and intensity of the work would make it undesirable. [...]

But the monotony and intensity of LU drivers may be partially compensated with ATO?

 

[Dstock7080]

But the monotony and intensity of LU drivers may be partially compensated with ATO?

Bakerloo, Piccadilly, Waterloo & City are entirely manual, pay differential?

Talks with ASLEF and management planned for Tuesday

 

[Cross City]

Talks with ASLEF and management planned for Tuesday

Any early signs there might be some progress?

 

[Dstock7080]

Any early signs there might be some progress?

ASLEF action now suspended (15.55)
Tube strikes called off after union talks https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly0zezx3ejo

ASLEF said it had been given a "significantly improved" pay offer by London Underground management and it would discuss that offer with union members on Thursday.

 

[notverydeep]

43 days
+1 for 25years service
+1 for 40years service

As @whoosh noted, but is often not understood by the travelling public or media, these 43 days consist of about 30 days normal leave and about 13 days paying back compulsory compressed hours. These staff work 36 hours per normal week but are paid for 35. Effectively there are no more hours of annual leave than any other staff…

 

[Dstock7080]

These staff work 36 hours per normal week but are paid for 35. Effectively there are no more hours of annual leave than any other staff…

Apologies for the incorrect information which was given in good faith.

 

[notverydeep]

Apologies for the incorrect information which was given in good faith.

Sorry that was not meant to be critical of your post. The 43 days is accurate, but it isn’t quite as generous as it appears at first glance. Aside from the compressed hours, leave is also mostly ‘rostered’; a Train Operator has holiday when the roster says they will, rather than when they choose. While they can swap leave weeks, they won’t always be able to take time off at Christmas or School holidays…

 

[Dstock7080]

ASLEF action suspended due to the “groundbreaking offer” of 2.5hr less per working week to 35hr 4-day, with paid 30min meal relief (currently 38.5hr 5-day week + unpaid meal relief) to be discussed by January 2025.

 

[Mawkie]

ASLEF action suspended due to the “groundbreaking offer” of 2.5hr less per working week to 35hr 4-day, with paid 30min meal relief (currently 38.5hr 5-day week + unpaid meal relief) to be discussed by January 2025.

I think it is fair to say there were many, many, many, different points of view in the mess room today! I'm waiting until January (and can see the actual proposals) before making my mind up.

One comment I will make now though... The RMT is an all grades union, and this 4 day week proposal does not include any of the other grades! So I can see why ASLEF is gloating about it, but can't see how RMT are going to sell this. Admittedly, some grades are doing OK, and some already have 4 day weeks I think (or at least 4on/4off), but CSAs, CSSs, and CSMs will be languishing in their 5 day weeks. Heck, even my Trains Manager made a sarky comment today about the offer (they are not included either!)

 

[bluegoblin7]

It is worth noting that the four day week proposals haven’t been made in any letters to the RMT (at least from those I’ve seen doing the rounds), and certainly from my function there’s no question of settling until it gets extended to all grades.

Equally, as always, it is down to how you interpret the words. A commitment to have a meeting is very different from a commitment to implementing.

 

[whoosh]

I expect there to be associated productivity changes so more flexibility is gained, although I expect the national press, and maybe even the railway press, will 'skip over' such detail, and the narrative to be "caving in to union demands," rather than the give and take involved in a proper negotiation.

 

[Mawkie]

I expect there to be associated productivity changes so more flexibility is gained, although I expect the national press, and maybe even the railway press, will 'skip over' such detail, and the narrative to be "caving in to union demands," rather than the give and take involved in a proper negotiation.

What, like this?



(photo caption:

london_ukstreetnews 52m

NEW: Tube drivers have been offered the following deal by TFL to get them to call off strikes:

- Four-day week

- 4.5% pay rise

- Paid meal breaks

- 2.5 hours a week less work

- 35-hour working week

- Extra week's paid paternity leave)

There is only ever an upside when it comes to rail worker's and the media.

 

[43066]

ASLEF action suspended due to the “groundbreaking offer” of 2.5hr less per working week to 35hr 4-day, with paid 30min meal relief (currently 38.5hr 5-day week + unpaid meal relief) to be discussed by January 2025.

Sounds decent. The fact breaks are unpaid is surprising - not been the case on the mainline for donkeys’ years - I can understand them wanting that to be equalised with the mainline.

Fully take your, @whoosh and @bramling ’s point about the intensity of the work. Does ATO make a difference? Albeit I can see you wouldn’t want to leave the door open for an argument that ATO driving is less demanding and therefore should be paid less, as I believe was proposed once upon a time.

I think it is fair to say there were many, many, many, different points of view in the mess room today! I'm waiting until January (and can see the actual proposals) before making my mind up.

One comment I will make now though... The RMT is an all grades union, and this 4 day week proposal does not include any of the other grades! So I can see why ASLEF is gloating about it, but can't see how RMT are going to sell this. Admittedly, some grades are doing OK, and some already have 4 day weeks I think (or at least 4on/4off), but CSAs, CSSs, and CSMs will be languishing in their 5 day weeks. Heck, even my Trains Manager made a sarky comment today about the offer (they are not included either!)

Presumably the only way to do it would be for it to be by grade, so that all drivers were included. The RMT certainly represents different grades with different Ts and Cs on the mainline with no expectation that things must be equalised between jobs - but I get the sense that wouldn’t be seen as acceptable on LU.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Once again: no four day week deal has been agreed.

It is a commitment from LUL to have talks about working towards the proposal, but it is exactly that. It’s a shame everyone (including drivers) is getting caught up with this and missing the detail: that in reality nothing changes as part of this pay offer and it remains exactly the same as Aslef were rejecting last week.

At least on the RMT side gains were made around their red lines of pay bands and business rules.

 

[43066]

Once again: no four day week deal has been agreed.

It is a commitment from LUL to have talks about working towards the proposal, but it is exactly that. It’s a shame everyone (including drivers) is getting caught up with this and missing the detail: that in reality nothing changes as part of this pay offer and it remains exactly the same as Aslef were rejecting last week.

At least on the RMT side gains were made around their red lines of pay bands and business rules.

Presumably something has changed in order for ASLEF to call off the action, though.

 

[bluegoblin7]

LU have confirmed that they will enter talks to discuss the possibility of a four day week separately to the offer.

 

[Dstock7080]

ASLEF has now accepted the 2024 LU pay offer of 4.5% without referring back to the membership.
The expectation of 4-day week talks are still progressing.

2024 Underground pay award now agreed.

The ASLEF Executive Committee has now formally agreed acceptance of the 2024 pay and conditions offer from London Underground. The key points of the offer are; · A pay award of 3.8% plus a consolidated increase of £450. This is equivalent to a 4.5% increase for train drivers. ·...

www.aslefdistrict8.org