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Rising electrification costs caused by increased overhead electrification clearances

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Tio Terry

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Don't believe all you read in the papers!
Electrical clearances - not just for railways - are described in BS EN50122 which is what the ORR expects to be followed. However, where existing infrastructure that is not being renewed cannot allow such clearances then EN50122 allows the application of Explicit Risk Estimation (ERE). This involves a risk identification workshop attended by those with the appropriate knowledge, the identification of any risks associated with not meeting the requirements of BS EN50122 and the mitigation of those risks.

This was recently applied, quite successfully, to the electrification of platform 14 at Paddington which has considerably reduced air gaps when compared to those given in BS EN50122.

BS EN50122 is indeed an EU document, one in which the UK was fully represented on the working group that compiled it, our representatives fully supported the changes it required to the wider Electrical Energy Industry and so was fully adopted by the UK.
 
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thecrofter

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Here's the ORR position. Not exactly as the poster above suggests.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/23004/electrical-clearances-policy-statement.pdf

.... ORR does not believe that the distance of 3.5m has to be achieved irrespective of cost. 3.5m is the minimum clearance which duty holders should aim to achieve and exceed wherever practical. Where that cannot be achieved without grossly disproportionate expenditure then the full range of options to control the risk arising should be identified, evaluated and implemented ....

 
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Phil.

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I assume you're not a regular reader of any of the electrification threads as it's been discussed at length several times in the last few months. That makes it difficult to know where to start to reply.

It's also an item in Roger Ford's column in the current Modern Railways.

However it's safe to say that the changed rules on electrification clearance are only one of a number of reasons for the escalating costs and timescales of electrification projects.

Why change the rules? The electricity is still at the same voltage and cycles. The atmospheric conditions haven't changed. Why change the distances that have been in place and found to be satisfactory for over fifty years? It smacks of someone's trying to create and justify their jobs.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Why change the rules? The electricity is still at the same voltage and cycles. The atmospheric conditions haven't changed. Why change the distances that have been in place and found to be satisfactory for over fifty years? It smacks of someone's trying to create and justify their jobs.

A combination of a taller population and a general lack of public awareness of the very real dangers that exist. A quick google for "longest selfie stick" brings up one that extends to 50"=1,270mm. Imagine careless use of such a device by a person nearly 2m tall. And good luck trying to ban such things.
 

edwin_m

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A combination of a taller population and a general lack of public awareness of the very real dangers that exist. A quick google for "longest selfie stick" brings up one that extends to 50"=1,270mm. Imagine careless use of such a device by a person nearly 2m tall. And good luck trying to ban such things.

This potentially affects clearance of live parts to platforms, and is worse in the UK than in other countries because our platforms are higher and wires often lower. It doesn't affect the other standards issues causing problems at the moment, which are clearance between the wire and fixed structures and bridge parapet height.
 

Phil.

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A combination of a taller population and a general lack of public awareness of the very real dangers that exist. A quick google for "longest selfie stick" brings up one that extends to 50"=1,270mm. Imagine careless use of such a device by a person nearly 2m tall. And good luck trying to ban such things.

Sorry, doesn't wash. Before Liverpool Street was rebuilt the overheads were so low the pan hardly moved above the train roof. It was - Llike Euston - thought that because of the low height a lower voltage would be needed for safety clearance purposes and so all the stock was dual voltage (6.25/25Kv) as were the AC locomotives of classes 81-85. Eventually after extensive testing it was found that the low clearance heights were more than adequate and so all the overheads were re-pressurised to 25Kv. This new directive is H&S gone bonkers.
 

SpacePhoenix

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A combination of a taller population and a general lack of public awareness of the very real dangers that exist. A quick google for "longest selfie stick" brings up one that extends to 50"=1,270mm. Imagine careless use of such a device by a person nearly 2m tall. And good luck trying to ban such things.

I wouldn't be surprised if a railway by-law already existed underwhich selfie sticks could be banned.

Which planned electrification or "re-electrification" (eg electric spine) schemes does it affect the most?
 

AM9

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Sorry, doesn't wash. Before Liverpool Street was rebuilt the overheads were so low the pan hardly moved above the train roof. It was - Llike Euston - thought that because of the low height a lower voltage would be needed for safety clearance purposes and so all the stock was dual voltage (6.25/25Kv) as were the AC locomotives of classes 81-85. Eventually after extensive testing it was found that the low clearance heights were more than adequate and so all the overheads were re-pressurised to 25Kv. This new directive is H&S gone bonkers.

Well not quite correct. There was a lot of additional clearance work when the voltage from Liverpool St. was raised from 6.25kV to 25kV. Apart from the replacement of the insulators, (which were the original 1500VDC types from the 1949 installation), there were changes to the supporting hardware that increased the clearances in the tightest spots.
The drive for the conversion was the difficulty in reliable operation of dual voltage rolling stock. The conversion was done to the minimum workable standards.
If electrification is to be the primary mode of train propulsion in the UK, what was a race to the bottom of technical standards is no longer acceptable. As has been explained before in this thread, the combined effects of higher platforms, taller passengers, lack of awareness of HV hazards and closer proximity to pantograph horns are all good reasons to adopt sound minimum standards of safety. This 'Health & Safety gone bonkers' attitude is just not acceptable in modern society, - and that's before current highly litiginous trends are recognised. Health and safety is a responsibility, not a set of petty rules to be dodged in the interests of costs or even just convenience.
 

rebmcr

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This potentially affects clearance of live parts to platforms, and is worse in the UK than in other countries because our platforms are higher and wires often lower. It doesn't affect the other standards issues causing problems at the moment, which are clearance between the wire and fixed structures and bridge parapet height.

It does when a platform is near to a non-compliant overstructure, because the maximum slope of the contact wire may not be adequate to avoid both.
 

tbtc

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If electrification is to be the primary mode of train propulsion in the UK, what was a race to the bottom of technical standards is no longer acceptable. As has been explained before in this thread, the combined effects of higher platforms, taller passengers, lack of awareness of HV hazards and closer proximity to pantograph horns are all good reasons to adopt sound minimum standards of safety. This 'Health & Safety gone bonkers' attitude is just not acceptable in modern society, - and that's before current highly litiginous trends are recognised. Health and safety is a responsibility, not a set of petty rules to be dodged in the interests of costs or even just convenience.

I knew nothing about the changes to clearances until very recently - and have found this thread very interesting/ informative - but the above quote from AM9 sums up a lot of my frustrations with modern reporting/ media/ arguments...

...the way that people roll their eyes and say "so called experts.... elf and safety gone mad" rather than trying to broaden their knowledge to understand things... drives me daft.

Thanks for summarising what I've been trying to express (much better than I would have)!
 

edwin_m

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It does when a platform is near to a non-compliant overstructure, because the maximum slope of the contact wire may not be adequate to avoid both.

In which case the correct answer should be to run the wire as close as possible to the structure to maximise its distance from the platform. "As close as possible" means what is justified by the historic BR tests and more to the point is the same clearance as on hundreds of other structures with no evidence of arcing problems - and even if it arcs it's more an operational inconvenience than a safety issue. I agree there is a problem if the clearance to the platform can't be achieved even by doing that.
 

notlob.divad

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In which case the correct answer should be to run the wire as close as possible to the structure to maximise its distance from the platform. "As close as possible" means what is justified by the historic BR tests and more to the point is the same clearance as on hundreds of other structures with no evidence of arcing problems - and even if it arcs it's more an operational inconvenience than a safety issue. I agree there is a problem if the clearance to the platform can't be achieved even by doing that.

Isn't that pretty much what they are doing? But they are having to risk assess at the various different locations where this may be an issue on existing structures. However in situations where it is new electrification, as this thread is implying by its title, surely if you have to modify the structures anyway and thus are paying out a large sum to do so, you may as well modify them to best practice, even if that means there is slightly more cost involved.

The issues surely comes with structures that under the old rules would not have required any modification work, but under the new rules do, even when all other mitigation is taken into account.
 

rebmcr

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In which case the correct answer should be to run the wire as close as possible to the structure to maximise its distance from the platform. "As close as possible" means what is justified by the historic BR tests and more to the point is the same clearance as on hundreds of other structures with no evidence of arcing problems - and even if it arcs it's more an operational inconvenience than a safety issue. I agree there is a problem if the clearance to the platform can't be achieved even by doing that.

I imagine this is what is involved in one of those Explicit Risk Estimations, because it is sensible.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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the quote... {edited} ...sums up a lot of my frustrations with modern reporting/ media/ arguments...

...the way that people roll their eyes and say "so called experts.... elf and safety gone mad" rather than trying to broaden their knowledge to understand things... drives me daft.

Sadly it's just part of the "Experts Not Required" syndrome which so pervades so much of public discussion and debate these days, and was very much to the fore during the Brexit campaign on both sides of the argument. I blame the printed media for their laziness in being so quick to rehash submissions to social media and present them as fact rather than doing some proper journalism and verifying them as either fact or hearsay. OFC it appears on this forum too. [/OT]
 

dalmahoyhill

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Yes ckearance does drive up prices but i also think part of the issues is Network Rail is hollowed out of experienced people and also the regulator has to take a lot of blame

I noted Roger Fords reports of the GWML electrification. The network rail team claimed a lot of mistakes were due to not doing it for a generation. That is rot as far as i am concerned. Most of the issues would be obvious to any experienced competent engineer. Oversized piles, no execuse. Using 120 mast types in a prefabricated design, no excuse. Using SHS which are more expensive than H sections, no excuses.
 

snowball

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Electrifiction seems to be more or less what it is in many cases.
I think I may have invented that word - I've been using it in emails to a friend for about three years, possibly since NR put out a press release appearing to state that Manchester to Newton-le-Willows was completed when in fact it was several months off.
 
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snowball

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From Roger Ford's e-preview of his column in the new Modern Railways:

More on electrical clearances

My heavily technical analysis of overhead line electrical clearances in last month’s column had informed observations whizzing into my e-mail in-box. The European Railway Agency send a surprisingly supportive letter. ORR also provided a policy statement and Network Rail sent me a chapter and verse – and paragraph and sub-paragraph - guide to the respective regulations.

Last month’s item focused on clearances to structures. This month it’s the turn of clearances ‘from parts of 25kV electrification systems to standing surfaces to which members of the public may foreseeably gain access’.

No room for detail here save to highlight BS EN 50122-1, the standard dealing with protective provisions against electric shock. Previously this took the UK loading gauge into account, with a UK specific case establishing an electrical clearance of 2.75m as a minimum. The revision in 2011 removed this special UK condition and today the use of any clearance under 3.5m must be justified by risk assessment.

ORR points out that ‘no other industry uses a dimension as low as 3.5m to achieve compliance with the Electricity at Work Regulations for 25kV systems, so its use already takes into account the constraints of UK rail infrastructure. ‘As such, the scope for further compromise of this already significantly reduced clearance distance without accompanying mitigations is extremely limited’.

In response to this policy statement I fired off an e-mail to ORR asking five questions, concerning risks and real world data, such as the number of passengers at stations electrocuted by 25kV overhead lines or rolling stock pantographs. ORR’s ever helpful press office arranged an phone conference with their relevant expert. After the ‘hello’s, I was told that they couldn’t answer the questions and an embarrassing, if informative discussion ensued. More dead parrot stuff.

Back in April ORR had written to Network Rail following a meeting to discuss how its legal duties in relation to public safety from new overhead line equipment at stations can be met. According to the letter all Network Rail has to do is produce high-quality site-specific risk assessments, demonstrating that all that is reasonably practicable to protect the public and staff is being done.

Site specific note. Think of the engineering hours this will take up. No wonder in Scotland Phil Verster gave up the fight for common sense and told his team just do what they want or we’ll never get the wires up. According to ORR, addressing and recording the specific conditions at each location will provide greater transparency than a ‘mechanistic, number-based risk assessment process’. It’s only time and money.

Network Rail took me through the regulations in detail. The elimination of the Reduced Minimum (200mm) and Special Reduced (150mm) structure clearances from the standard, leaving only the Normal structural clearance of 270mm, is seen as a good thing. Since there is no longer a minimum clearance specified, the relevant clause actually relaxes the previous Group Standard. I suppose the theory is that each bridge can have a customised clearance, say 131.5mm if you can get it past ORR.

On platform clearances, Network Rail supplied some wonderful examples of the regulation writer’s art. In the Committee responsible Network Rail obtained a relaxation to the relevant requirement to reflect the restricted GB gauge. This allowed RSSB to publish a GB specific requirement for platform clearances in our old friend GL/RT1210.

When all this was reviewed by the relevant British Standards committee it was agreed that, while the previous 2.75m clearance was not justifiable as a minimum limit in a standard, it might be justifiable subject to a risk assessment. So, according to Network Rail, electrical clearances below 3.5m are possible – with risk assessment.

What’s really infuriating about this safety-by-diktat, is that the engineers concerned know that it is irrational and yet they go along with it. To paraphrase Edmund Burke, ‘the only thing necessary for the triumph of bureaucracy over common sense is that good engineers should do nothing.’
 

GRALISTAIR

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Modern Railways said:
" To paraphrase Edmund Burke, ‘the only thing necessary for the triumph of bureaucracy over common sense is that good engineers should do nothing.’

I love it.
 
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snowball

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In the new Modern Railways this is not only covered in Roger Ford's column but has also prompted a page of interesting letters on page 44, including one from the Executive Director of the EU Agency for Railways, suggesting the EU may have something to learn from past UK practice.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm reading GazK's book on OLE, a bit each day, and have got to the section on pantographs.

I'm interested to see that, while the horns at the ends of the head of a typical UK pantograph are conducting, typical European pantographs have insulating horns.

Could a switch to insulating horns help to reduce the problems of clearance between live parts and people on platforms?
 
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QueensCurve

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The reasons for it are very much unknown. Clearances are being increased massively but I am yet to see anyone justify it. Unfortunate incidents recently with foil helium balloons and potential from Umbrellas has caught the eyes of the regulators.

Part of it is also to try and discourage suicide. Although as Roger says, evidence that this happens does not seem to be forthcoming.

Overall, this is an absolute minefield which Network Rail has found itself in with no cheap way out. Infact there is not even an easy way out.

I reckon if CAF can get the Northern DMUs working well and Stadler the AGA Bi Modes we could see those becoming two major rolling stock manufacturers in the UK as we realise we can no longer afford to electrify.

If I can bring BREXIT into it momentarily (mainly to justify you saying that BREXIT isn't part of it). The DfT has been told that the railways are very low down on the Agenda when it comes to amending laws etc from us leaving the EU so there is no discussion about Brexit to be had. The current laws will be with us for at least another 5 years without any changes. That has come from a presentation on the subject i know nothing more so as the OP requested lets leave it out.

In this case the problem is UK regulators gold plating TSI reuirements which quite speciffically provide an exemption for UK railways.
 

HSTEd

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In other words - safety standard escalation is pushing the prices so high as to make the entire thing totally uneconomic.
Now how many more people will die from diesel pollution who didn't have to - its almost certainly larger than the number of lives "saved" by these new regulations.
 

dviner

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In other words - safety standard escalation is pushing the prices so high as to make the entire thing totally uneconomic.
Now how many more people will die from diesel pollution who didn't have to - its almost certainly larger than the number of lives "saved" by these new regulations.

Well, to answer that question, you would have to know the answer to the question: "how many people have died per year where the cause of death has been diesel pollution originating from railway use".

Of course, you would have to determine how much diesel pollution contributes as a cause of death, and how much of that was due to road traffic diesel use, rail transport diesel use and non-transport origins of diesel pollution. Oh, and it would have to have been recorded as such.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scientists-60000-deaths-dirty-diesel-pollution-uk-each-year-1477320

Says 60,000 back in 2014.

This one: http://www.nhs.uk/news/2016/02February/Pages/Air-pollution-kills-40000-a-year-in-the-UK-says-report.aspx says that it's 40,000 in 2016.

Don't think there's a breakdown that shows how much rail-sourced diesel fumes contribute though.
 

Hellzapoppin

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Yes ckearance does drive up prices but i also think part of the issues is Network Rail is hollowed out of experienced people and also the regulator has to take a lot of blame

I noted Roger Fords reports of the GWML electrification. The network rail team claimed a lot of mistakes were due to not doing it for a generation. That is rot as far as i am concerned. Most of the issues would be obvious to any experienced competent engineer. Oversized piles, no execuse. Using 120 mast types in a prefabricated design, no excuse. Using SHS which are more expensive than H sections, no excuses.

Worthwhile noting that engineers on the ground have no say in the design. In my small area of expertise I can do designs on the back of fag packets in 10 minutes but because I'm not a designer they can't be used.
 

HSTEd

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Indeed, but how many people are killed by 25kV electrocution a year? I don't think it is particularily common
 
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