RIP HM Queen Elizabeth II

[Bevan Price]

I remember the death of King George VI. Also, as a member of the School ACF, lining the road and presenting arms (with a WWI Lee Enfield rifle) on a visit by her few weeks after the coronation. I am not old!

I also just remember the death of King George VI. We were at school and a special assembly was called, where the headmaster made the sad announcement; a couple of years later, the whole school lined the adjacent road to cheer The Queen passing whilst on a visit to the area.

R.I.P. Your Majesty. You and Prince Phillip are together again.

I think that King Charles III will do his best to follow her magnificent example of how a sovereign should behave.
God Save The King.

 

[johnnychips]

Just watching the service of remembrance. What a load of scruff bags the British public are. Would it really be too much trouble to put a jacket and tie on, or something vaguely smart for the ladies. This coming from someone who spends 99% of their time in jeans and a t shirt.

Is this a serious post?

 

[adc82140]

Very much so. The tickets for that service were handed out in the morning. That allowed plenty of time to get home/to your hotel to put on something appropriate. Even just a black t shirt would have done. It shows disrespect to turn up to a national event of mourning dressed like you're going to Tesco.

It seems I'm not alone with this opinion. My local town council has now updated their open invitation to the proclamation at the Town Hall on Sunday to add a line referring to the service and asking people to dress appropriately.

 

[richa2002]

Very much so. The tickets for that service were handed out in the morning. That allowed plenty of time to get home/to your hotel to put on something appropriate. Even just a black t shirt would have done. It shows disrespect to turn up to a national event of mourning dressed like you're going to Tesco.

It seems I'm not alone with this opinion. My local town council has now updated their open invitation to the proclamation at the Town Hall on Sunday to add a line referring to the service and asking people to dress appropriately.

Agreed. The standard of dress in this country is appalling compared to even 20 years ago. The sense of occasion and dressing accordingly seems to have largely been forgotten.

 

[birchesgreen]

Only black t-shirt i've got is an Iron Maiden one so i'll stick to the dark green one i got on now.

 

[DelayRepay]

Agreed. The standard of dress in this country is appalling compared to even 20 years ago. The sense of occasion and dressing accordingly seems to have largely been forgotten.

Also agree.

I hardly ever wear a suit these days. I don't even know if mine still fits me. I will happily wear jeans and a t-shirt to work (where, only a few years ago, the minimum you could get away with was smart trousers and a shirt).

But for an event of this nature I would not dream of wearing casual/bright clothes, even if it meant an impromptu trip to the nearest clothes shop to buy something more suitable.

 

[cf111]

I was in Edinburgh from Wednesday to today and would normally work in "civvies". I did so on Wednesday and Thursday but it didn't feel "right" to do so on Friday so I had a shirt and navy blue tie on instead.

I wouldn't consider myself either a royalist or a republican but I have limitless respect for Her Majesty and I suppose it was just a small way of showing respect even though nothing ceremonial is going on in the city just now.

A plain dark t-shirt or similar I would consider "appropriate", but this is a free country and I'm not the fashion police!

It is still a very strange feeling and reminds me of how I felt when my granny left us. In a way the Queen was almost the nation's granny! A source of comfort and continuity in a world changing so quickly.

Monarch was not a role Princess Elizabeth chose, or was ever expected to be thrust into, but it's often strange how the doors slide and assumptions fall. Her Majesty discharged her duties with care, dignity and respect until the very end. I am thankful to have lived through some of her reign and I am becoming more confident that HM The King will be a King very much in his mother's image. I cannot think of a better master for an apprentice.

 

[Ediswan]

According to Radio 4, some passers by were invited in to watch the Proclamation ceremony. Resulting in a mixture of full formal dress with raincoats and walking boots.

 

[MotCO]

Something I had underestimated was the reaction from around the world. All US Embassies were flying flags at half mast; the Eifel Tower switched their lights off; the Monza Grand Prix is having a minute's silence;etc. I would have expected respect to be shown in Commonwealth countries, but the global response in my eyes has been staggering. I'm not sure even the death of a Pope would have triggered such a reaction.

This must reflect how the world regarded the late Queen, and to a large extent how the world regards the UK.

 

[adc82140]

According to Radio 4, some passers by were invited in to watch the Proclamation ceremony. Resulting in a mixture of full formal dress with raincoats and walking boots.

That explains a lot. The other news outlets were stating that tickets were allocated first come first served early in the day.

 

[Ediswan]

That explains a lot. The other news outlets were stating that tickets were allocated first come first served early in the day.

It may not have been strictly 'passers by'. I was paying more attention to the dress code (or absence of), than the admission process.

 

[birchesgreen]

Something I had underestimated was the reaction from around the world. All US Embassies were flying flags at half mast; the Eifel Tower switched their lights off; the Monza Grand Prix is having a minute's silence;etc. I would have expected respect to be shown in Commonwealth countries, but the global response in my eyes has been staggering. I'm not sure even the death of a Pope would have triggered such a reaction.

This must reflect how the world regarded the late Queen, and to a large extent how the world regards the UK.

I think it also reflects the passing of a wartime generation, the Queen symbolised it

 

[XAM2175]

According to Radio 4, some passers by were invited in to watch the Proclamation ceremony. Resulting in a mixture of full formal dress with raincoats and walking boots.

That explains a lot. The other news outlets were stating that tickets were allocated first come first served early in the day.

These are two different things. The service at St Paul's last night was ticketed, issued on a first-come-first-served basis at the City of London Information Centre in St Paul's Churchyard from 1100 onwards.

The Proclamation Ceremony at St James's Palace this morning had no publicised access information, which leads me to believe it would have been a mix of people who went along hoping to get in anyway, and people who just happened to be walking the Mall at the time. The subsequent proclamations (at the Royal Exchange and also outside London) have been open to the public in general.

 

[Butts]

It's amazing to think that if the Queen had not died in Scotland Operation Unicorn and a lot of the current events would not be taking place.

To my mind this has possibly strengthened the Union as Scots are currently the focus of the worlds attention and part of the process.

It's telling to mention that were only a few hundred street parties in Scotland during the recent Jubilee, compared to 10,000 in England.

Was there a plan if she had died in Wales ? - Operation Dragon ?

I don't think there are any Royal Palaces in Wales so would she have been brought straight back to England ?

 

[DelayRepay]

Was there a plan if she had died in Wales ? - Operation Dragon ?

I don't think there are any Royal Palaces in Wales so would she have been brought straight back to England ?

I think dying in Wales was always much less likely, unless it was a sudden death. I think Scotland would have needed specific plans due to the length of time she spent at Balmoral each Summer.

Operation Dragon does exist, it's the Welsh part of Operation Spring Tide (the accession plans which run concurrently with London Bridge).

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I was in Edinburgh from Wednesday to today and would normally work in "civvies". I did so on Wednesday and Thursday but it didn't feel "right" to do so on Friday so I had a shirt and navy blue tie on instead.

I wouldn't consider myself either a royalist or a republican but I have limitless respect for Her Majesty and I suppose it was just a small way of showing respect even though nothing ceremonial is going on in the city just now.

A plain dark t-shirt or similar I would consider "appropriate", but this is a free country and I'm not the fashion police!

It is still a very strange feeling and reminds me of how I felt when my granny left us. In a way the Queen was almost the nation's granny! A source of comfort and continuity in a world changing so quickly.

Monarch was not a role Princess Elizabeth chose, or was ever expected to be thrust into, but it's often strange how the doors slide and assumptions fall. Her Majesty discharged her duties with care, dignity and respect until the very end. I am thankful to have lived through some of her reign and I am becoming more confident that HM The King will be a King very much in his mother's image. I cannot think of a better master for an apprentice.

A fantastic post.

It certainly sums up my views and I would say the vast majorities, views about the late Queen.

 

[uglymonkey]

I may be a bit dumb is asking this, but why lying in state in Edinburgh?, and not then journey to Cardiff for lying in state, then to Belfast for lying in state ? Why is Edinburgh "special" compared to the other "capitals of our 4 countries of the UK? - Because she died in Scotland?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Because she died in Scotland?

I believe that is correct, yes.

 

[AlterEgo]

I may be a bit dumb is asking this, but why lying in state in Edinburgh?, and not then journey to Cardiff for lying in state, then to Belfast for lying in state ? Why is Edinburgh "special" compared to the other "capitals of our 4 countries of the UK? - Because she died in Scotland?

She is not lying in state in Edinburgh. She is lying at rest, which is different, and she is only there because it's "on the way" to London and because she died in Scotland.

Monarchs only lie in state in Westminster Hall, part of the Palace of Westminster.

 

[uglymonkey]

Thank You !

 

[westv]

So no royal train to London this time then.

 

[WesternLancer]

So no royal train to London this time then.

I have to say this is a great disappointment and missed opportunity IMHO. It would have been 'traditional'; the rail industry would have risen to the occasion magnificently I am sure ; and it would have been more of an opportunity for people who live within reasonable distance of the route to pay their respects. You can't do that with a flight.

Given the time for lying in state there is no great reason why an element of time could not have been spent taking the coffin by train.

I rather hope no one said along lines of - 'we can't do that because the TOCs will demand compensation payments for late trains as the Royal Trian would have to do the trip at a speed of no more than 50 - 60mph and that will block up the ECML...'

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I rather hope no one said along lines of - 'we can't do that because the TOCs will demand compensation payments for late trains as the Royal Trian would have to do the trip at a speed of no more than 50 - 60mph and that will block up the ECML...'

Unfortunately the potential disruption to services trains is one of the reasons cited.

The other main reason being thrown around is worries about mass trespassing.

What appears to have happened is that the use of the train was removed from the plans during the pandemic, probably to avoid crowding while it was banned, and simply hasn't been put back in because the plans hadn't been reviewed again yet...

 

[Butts]

She is not lying in state in Edinburgh. She is lying at rest, which is different, and she is only there because it's "on the way" to London and because she died in Scotland.

Monarchs only lie in state in Westminster Hall, part of the Palace of Westminster.

Having said that the RAF could have flown her down from Aberdeen Airport.

Perhaps it's because Scotland still retains the infrastructure and apparatus of a Sovereign State unlike Wales or Northern Ireland.

 

[Gloster]

I would have thought it would be politically unacceptable for the body to be hoiked out of Scotland as soon as possible. I suspect it would also have been in the protocols that she should lie in rest in Scotland if she died there.

 

[WesternLancer]

Unfortunately the potential disruption to services trains is one of the reasons cited.

The other main reason being thrown around is worries about mass trespassing.

What appears to have happened is that the use of the train was removed from the plans during the pandemic, probably to avoid crowding while it was banned, and simply hasn't been put back in because the plans hadn't been reviewed again yet...

Thanks Peter - very disappointing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

I would have thought it would be politically unacceptable for the body to be hoiked out of Scotland as soon as possible. I suspect it would also have been in the protocols that she should lie in rest in Scotland if she died there.

Both good points and almost certainly correct Gloster. And not necessary to move fast on this either. There is no hurry after all.

 

[nlogax]

I suspect it would also have been in the protocols that she should lie in rest in Scotland if she died there.

It is, though I can't figure out whether it's Operation Unicorn or Operation Overstudy in play as her body is returning to London by plane and not train.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I have to say this is a great disappointment and missed opportunity IMHO. It would have been 'traditional'; the rail industry would have risen to the occasion magnificently I am sure ; and it would have been more of an opportunity for people who live within reasonable distance of the route to pay their respects. You can't do that with a flight.

Given the time for lying in state there is no great reason why an element of time could not have been spent taking the coffin by train.

I rather hope no one said along lines of - 'we can't do that because the TOCs will demand compensation payments for late trains as the Royal Trian would have to do the trip at a speed of no more than 50 - 60mph and that will block up the ECML...'

During the coverage of yesterday's procession from Balmoral to Holyrood it was commented on by Baroness (Ruth) Davidson. She remarked that it was a shame that while some residents of eastern Scotland had the opportunity for a farewell view of the Queen's coffin the decision to make the Edinburgh-London journey by air was denying the people of north-eastern and central England the same opportunity. Later Andrew Marr during a studio segment made the point that a long rail journey would have been both a safety and security nightmare especially if the train ran overnight. In particular he made the point that a train running at even reduced speed cannot stop in a hurry should there be any obstruction, however unintentional, of the line ahead. Even the road journey through Scotland was at a relatively sedate pace, was planned to take 6 hours and in the event took a little longer even than that.

In short I doubt that we will ever see rail being used in such circumstances again. The general standards of public behaviour, even when all concerned have good intentions, just make it too difficult to manage safely.

 

[Jimini]

Update from The Telegraph as follows:

Safety fears scotch plans to use Royal Train to transport Queen Elizabeth II to London

Decision causes dismay in rail industry, where staff were preparing to play their part in national mourning

www.telegraph.co.uk

Safety fears scotch plans to use Royal Train to transport Queen Elizabeth II to London​

Decision causes dismay in rail industry where staff were preparing to play their part in national mourning

ByHannah Furness, ROYAL EDITOR and Dominic Penna12 September 2022 • 7:29pm

The Queen and Prince Charles on the Royal Train which had been converted to carry Queen Elizabeth II's coffin back to London CREDIT: PA
A carriage of the Royal Train, modified especially to carry Queen Elizabeth II’s coffin, lies unused after plans for the nation to turn out to show its respects were scrapped over fears for public safety and disruption.
The carriage is said to have been converted into a hearse built with wide doors and a rotating table to manoeuvre a coffin, ready to be sent to Scotland to bring the late Queen on her final journey.
Plans had been drawn up for the train to make its way slowly south, with members of the public invited to watch it pass while they paid their own tributes.
Industry sources on Monday said that the plan had been abandoned at the last minute over fears the route would become a magnet for protestors or reckless behaviour that would make it too difficult to police.

The Earl of Wessex, the Duke of York, the King, the Queen Consort, and the Princess Royal during a Service of Prayer and Reflection for the Life of Queen Elizabeth II at St Giles' Cathedral, Edinburgh CREDIT: Aaron Chown /Pool PA
One claimed the decision was taken in part to give more time for the Queen’s body to lie in state in London, where hundreds of thousands of people are expected to visit the coffin.
A royal source said the plan to use the Royal Train had only been a relatively recent option, discussed within the last five years, but dismissed some time ago on the advice of partner organisations, including the police.
The decision has caused dismay in the rail industry, where staff had been preparing to play their part in the national tribute to the late Queen.
One source said: “It’s such a shame and has caused a lot of disappointment.
“I’m sure the public could have been trusted to behave appropriately.”

A prop casket on a gun carriage during a dress rehearsal for the funeral. Organisers want to give people more time to see the Queen's body lying in state in London CREDIT: Chip Somodevilla /Getty Images Europe
One worker at Gemini Rail Group’s Wolverton Facility, located just outside Milton Keynes, confirmed the carriage, called Coach 2921, had been there until last week.
The Royal Train is usually a diesel locomotive with 10-12 coaches, with the intention of having it hauled by a steam engine to bring the late Queen’s coffin home.

Palace decision​

The plan to use it on the Edinburgh to London route was abandoned in favour of flying it by RAF C17 plane.
Rail industry sources have been told that the decision was made by Buckingham Palace in line with the Queen’s wishes.
One said that he did not believe it matched her desire to be “seen to be believed”, saying it was a “great shame” those in the north of England would not have a chance to watch the train carry her through their local stations en route to London.

The King is now signing off all plans for his mother’s funeral.
A palace source said the decision had been taken on the advice of numerous organisations, including police, government departments and local councils. It is understood it would have caused disruption to public rail timetables.
They claimed that the use of the RAF plane had been the original plan, to which they have now reverted.
Nigel Harris, editor of Rail magazine, said the decision was “wrong-headed”.
“People have been denied their chance to pay their respects to the Queen,” he said. “I don’t think she would have gone along with that.”

'Major blunder'​

He added: “Deciding not to use the Royal Train to take Queen Elizabeth II back home to London on her last journey was, in my view, a major blunder by the Government, Palace and railway.
“Millions - and I do mean millions - of folk living south of the Scottish border and north of London have been denied that powerful, humble experience.”
He argued that the choice not to use it on such a momentous occasion would add to arguments to scrap the Royal Train entirely.

“If the railway can’t use this taxpayer-funded asset, when the longest-serving British monarch dies after a 70-year reign, claiming it will trigger mass trespass [and] be unsafe … when will we ever use it?”
At 5pm on Tuesday, the coffin will be taken by hearse from St Giles’ Cathedral to Edinburgh Airport, where it will be placed on board an RAF aircraft by a bearer party found by the Royal Air Force. It will then be flown at 6pm to RAF Northolt.
The coffin will be accompanied on the journey by Queen Elizabeth II’s daughter, the Princess Royal, and the Very Reverend Professor David Fergusson, Dean of the Chapel Royal in Scotland.

 

[Strat-tastic]

Bring her down by train with Flying Scotsman on the front...