RIP HM Queen Elizabeth II

[telstarbox]

No one else in the world has ceremonies, old procedures and "strange dress" of course. Well apart from pretty much every country in the world.

Good point - where is the most modern country in the world?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Canterbury I think

Thank you.


I see several posters discussing rehearsals - they do in fact rehearse a state funeral at least once a year, unannounced and at night. Occasionally it does get noticed and a small mention is made in the press the next day. It's not a full rehearsal, obviously, but it does involve movement of a gun carriage a short distance and the associated escorting - but no bands playing or things like that. Only what they need to in order to keep the skills and knowledge up.

Only once in a generation will they need to do it for real - but the same skills will be used for real more often for a ceremonial funeral.

 

[AlterEgo]

An alternative view (like Dave Spart) is that it might give the impression that Britain is a country living in the past. Elaborate ceremonial, old fashioned procedures, strange dress, etc. might make others think that we are living in a bygone era that the rest of the world has moved on from.

That's up to the observer seeing what they want to see. The Lord Chamberlain broke his wand of office while wearing an Apple Watch.

 

[JamesT]

That's up to the observer seeing what they want to see. The Lord Chamberlain broke his wand of office while wearing an Apple Watch.

I noticed 2 or 3 people in the procession appeared to be carrying similar wands. Though it wasn’t mentioned who the other people were or if their wands would also be snapped.
At first glance it looked like they were carrying snooker cues.

 

[Springs Branch]

One thing I was reminded of watching the Westminster Abbey proceedings was something my grandfather explained to me while I was a youngster . . .

The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is positioned at the entrance to the Abbey in such a way that with every grand procession - whether it's a coronation, royal wedding, or the funeral of a monarch - everyone needs to divert their stately progress to walk around this tomb.

I noticed this as the Queen's coffin, the King & Royal Family went in and out. Also with some of the earlier shots of the Great and the Good (like Boris and Cameron!) making their way into the Abbey before the start, and I wondered whether the significance was appreciated by many of the prime ministers, visiting royalty & presidents.

 

[Lost property]

The military do routinely practice ceremonial events albeit the RAF, apart from the QCS, far less so than the dedicate Army regiments although why anybody would wish to join such is a mystery really.

"Some time ago " the residents at the time of the country spa retreat near Wendover, soon to become a luxurious housing development no doubt, participated in a ceremonial route lining....only the RAF could issue ceremonial woollen capes on the day, middle of July !...which, thankfully, somebody with some sense decided weren't quite necessary after all. We also suddenly stopped the ever popular synchronised walking "something to do on a Saturday morning " time fillers and suddenly concentrated on funeral drill for whom, or why, we never learnt.

The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier does, as other contributors have said, ensure visitors make a respectful diversion. Personally, when it comes to politicians, I would make every UK politician attend the National Arboretum, preferably on a very inclement day, and view the memorials there...and try and reflect on who was responsible for the policies that resulted in them being there. When you know the names of some commemorated, it becomes very emotive

 

[brad465]

Multiple outlets are reporting that the Queen died of "old age" at 15:10. This means that she was alive when the initial concerns for her health were reported, and that all the Royals who were not already in Scotland at this time were not there before her death:

The Queen died from old age, according to late monarch’s death certificate

Queen Elizabeth II died at Balmoral Castle on September 8

www.standard.co.uk

The Queen’s cause of death was old age, her death certificate has revealed.
The document, published by National Records of Scotland on Thursday, records that the late monarch died at 3.10pm on September 8 at Balmoral Castle in Ballater.

 

[Mojo]

Multiple outlets are reporting that the Queen died of "old age" at 15:10. This means that she was alive when the initial concerns for her health were reported, and that all the Royals who were not already in Scotland at this time were not there before her death:

Cameron Walker just said live on TV just now that this would have meant William, the Wessexes, Andrew and Harry would not have got there in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they really put "old age" on death certificates rather than the specific cause, most likely cardiac arrest but sometimes stroke?

 

[AlterEgo]

Do they really put "old age" on death certificates rather than the specific cause, most likely cardiac arrest but sometimes stroke?

Yes, that's quite common especially if your GP has known you for a very long time. That's quite the death certificate though, interesting to see "occupation" listed as her title rather than "Monarch of the United Kingdom of Great....etc etc etc"

 

[Ediswan]

Do they really put "old age" on death certificates rather than the specific cause, most likely cardiac arrest but sometimes stroke?

It seems that can be done, if certain conditions are met.
https://www.sad.scot.nhs.uk/atafter-death/death-certification/part-c/

Old age cannot be stated as the sole cause of death for anyone unless the certifying doctor:

• Has personally cared for the deceased over a long period (meaning years, or many months)
• Has observed a gradual decline in the patient's general health and functioning
• Is not aware of any identifiable disease or injury that contributed to the death
• When the certifying doctor is certain that there is no other reason that the death should be reported to the Procurator Fiscal
• If the patient is 80 years or older and all the conditions listed above are met.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do they really put "old age" on death certificates rather than the specific cause, most likely cardiac arrest but sometimes stroke?

On a few fairly recent English certificates I have the wording used is “frailty of old age”. As others have said the certifying doctor needs fairly long term knowledge of the deceased.

 

[WesternLancer]

Multiple outlets are reporting that the Queen died of "old age" at 15:10. This means that she was alive when the initial concerns for her health were reported, and that all the Royals who were not already in Scotland at this time were not there before her death:

The Queen died from old age, according to late monarch’s death certificate

Queen Elizabeth II died at Balmoral Castle on September 8

www.standard.co.uk

someone on the day suggested to me that the Queen was quite likely to have actually died before the public announcement that she was gravely ill (or whatever they stated) at circa 4pm were made, as part of the process of managing the announcement etc and the ensuring media reporting (and most importantly IMHO actually being able to tell the Queen's close family first - because after all this is someone's close relative, first and foremost, and whoever you are in my view that should take precedence - at least in a modern age where it was not remotely likely to create a 'succession crisis' of the sort that in a state where the monarch is the absolute ruler would have been vital)- the person's view being this would be to ensure that the announcement was done in a suitably dignified and appropriate way - and not due to some sort of conspiracy, I should add.

Apols if I have got this wrong on the exact time line of events mentioned to the public on the day concerned, as I have not double checked.

 

[duncanp]

When my grandmother died in 1994, the doctor put "old age" on the death certificate.

I think that this is used when both the doctor and next of kin are satisfied that the death is due to natural causes, but agree that there is no point in investigating a more specific cause.

It is of course possible that The Queen had something more specific, and "old age" has been used to cover up the true cause.

However everyone could see that The Queen's health was declining over the last 18 months of her life, so frailty due to old age seems to have been a contributing factor in her death.

 

[XAM2175]

I think that this is used when both the doctor and next of kin are satisfied that the death is due to natural causes, but agree that there is no point in investigating a more specific cause.

The actual policy for recording it as a cause of death in Scotland was posted in #311, more than forty minutes before your post.

It is of course possible that The Queen had something more specific, and "old age" has been used to cover up the true cause.

 

[341o2]

A copy of the Queen's death certificate may be viewed on BBC news, 1510 is the time recorded for it


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63078676

 

[Busaholic]

Do they really put "old age" on death certificates rather than the specific cause, most likely cardiac arrest but sometimes stroke?

Yes, it happened in the case of my grandfather, who died six months shy of his 100th birthday and having spent a total of four nights in hospital in his life, two of them following a hernia operation. That's not to say something else is not mentioned as a contributory factor (e.g. pneumonia, the 'old man's friend', as it proved to be in his case.)

 

[oldman]

that at 1510, Princess Anne reported the Queen's death to the doctor concerned.

That isn't quite right. The doctor certified the time of the Queen's death as 1510. Anne, as a close relative, registered the death eight days later. Anything else is speculation.

Response to post subsequently changed.

 

[AlterEgo]

That isn't quite right. The doctor certified the time of the Queen's death as 1510. Anne, as a close relative, registered the death eight days later. Anything else is speculation.

Indeed.

There is little doubt that the Queen had suffered some catastrophic health event from which she could not recover, and her doctor would have been present during this time. Princess Anne was also at Balmoral and was with the Queen when she died.

 

[Gloster]

The following might appear to be a piece of cynical, even bad taste, satire, but is a genuine thought. I wonder if, once she knew that Johnson would be departing, the Queen pushed herself to stay alive so that the mourning would not be led by the self-promoting narcissist who, of all her prime ministers, had been the only one to treat her with near-comtempt. I would suspect that she would have had a belief that the mourning of a monarch should be dignified and would doubt if Johnson would have met her standards. (*) Once Truss had kissed hands, the strain finally got to her and she went downhill rapidly.

* - I am not suggesting that he would have turned it into a circus, but I could see him hogging the limelight as the great leader bringing the country together in its hour of need. Truss, for all the faults that we have seen appear since, did at least try to be dignified.

As a small bit of satire that the mods might remove: I wonder if the Queen would have liked to see Johnson’s face when he realised he had missed his chance of playacting on a world stage by two days.

 

[341o2]

That isn't quite right. The doctor certified the time of the Queen's death as 1510. Anne, as a close relative, registered the death eight days later. Anything else is speculation.

Not sure what I am supposed to be speculating about.
I am well aware of the procedure following someone's death

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2022 ==

The following might appear to be a piece of cynical, even bad taste, satire, but is a genuine thought. I wonder if, once she knew that Johnson would be departing, the Queen pushed herself to stay alive so that the mourning would not be led by the self-prompting narcissist who, of all her prime ministers, had been the only one to treat her with near-comtempt. I would suspect that she would have had a belief that the mourning of a monarch should be dignified and would doubt if Johnson would have met her standards. (*) Once Truss had kissed hands, the strain finally got to her and she went downhill rapidly.

* - I am not suggesting that he would have turned it into a circus, but I could see him hogging the limelight as the great leader bringing the country together in its hour of need. Truss, for all the faults that we have seen appear since, did at least try to be dignified.

As a small bit of satire that the mods might remove: I wonder if the Queen would have liked to see Johnson’s face when he realised he had missed his chance of playacting on a world stage by two days.

I've heard that comment elsewhere and am inclined to agree with you.

 

[THC]

The following might appear to be a piece of cynical, even bad taste, satire, but is a genuine thought. I wonder if, once she knew that Johnson would be departing, the Queen pushed herself to stay alive...

As a republican not given to the obsequiousness that characterises much of the discourse surrounding the late monarch (RIP), I rather like to think she hung on just to see him off the premises as a final act of service to the nation.

THC

 

[oldman]

Not sure what I am supposed to be speculating about.
I am well aware of the procedure following someone's death

You wrote:

that at 1510, Princess Anne reported the Queen's death to the doctor concerned.

That is speculation. Anne is on the death certificate as the person reporting the death to the registrar, not as a witness. The known knowns from the certificate are what I wrote:

The doctor certified the time of the Queen's death as 1510. Anne, as a close relative, registered the death eight days later.

 

[341o2]

You wrote:


That is speculation. Anne is on the death certificate as the person reporting the death to the registrar, not as a witness. The known knowns from the certificate are what I wrote:

Well, I've amended my comment Satsified?

 

[najaB]

As a republican not given to the obsequiousness that characterises much of the discourse surrounding the late monarch (RIP), I rather like to think she hung on just to see him off the premises as a final act of service to the nation.

I am 100% certain that this was the case. I'm pretty sure that when the Partygate revelations started to come out she thought back to sitting alone at Philip's funeral and decided that one way or the other she was going to see him gone.

That and then meeting Liz Truss...

 

[Cloud Strife]

Truss, for all the faults that we have seen appear since, did at least try to be dignified.

I can't fault her for that. It was actually a very good start, and she had people thinking that she might actually be a competent PM.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m no fan of his but Boris delivered a far more fitting and apt eulogy in the Commons than Truss did with her rather odd national address as Prime Minister. (“Devastated”? How undignified a way to talk about the head of state. “It is with great sadness and regret…” instead. )

I cannot imagine the Queen thought highly of either of these pathetic fools.

It is fanciful cope that a frail 96 year old, who probably died of something sudden, “held on” to smite That Guy You Hate.

Truss is weird and awkward and looked totally out of her depth, just two days into a job she is just as unsuited for as her predecessor. For all his myriad flaws Boris would not have made it all about him. There are some things even he would have tried not to poison.

 

[najaB]

It is fanciful cope that a frail 96 year old, who probably died of something sudden, “held on” to smite That Guy You Hate.

Nope, it's not at all. History is replete with examples of people who have held on to life until some specific time/action and then given up.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nope, it's not at all. History is replete with examples of people who have held on to life until some specific time/action and then given up.

Name some, and prove they “held on” and deliberately and consciously delayed their own death. Why didn’t she hold on until all her family arrived then? Did she die without warning to spite them? Fanciful cope, sorry.

I’ve worked in nursing care and it’s not true that frail people can do this. I’ve watched about a hundred people of the Queen’s age die. Death can come at any time, especially where that is at the hands of a degenerative illness or a sudden catastrophic event like a heart attack or stroke.

The Queen was frail and unwell but perfectly capable of standing with the aid of one stick, and appointing a new Prime Minister in person about 48 hours before her death. Her eventual demise must have been sudden and catastrophic. Probably the best type of death one can expect at 96.

 

[BrandanM]

Following on from a train trip to central London last Saturday in order to visit Westminster Abbey and the floral tributes in Green Park and Hyde Park, I yesterday travelled to Windsor Castle and St George's Chapel where Her Majesty The Queen is now laid to rest.