Ribblehead Viaduct

[QueensCurve]

Barmouth Bridge, and until recently Pont Briwet.

Forgot about Barmouth/Abermaw which, 35y ago, was under threat of being eaten by toledo worms.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Forgot about Barmouth/Abermaw which, 35y ago, was under threat of being eaten by toledo worms.

Slightly off-topic, but do any amateur linguists on here know why Barmouth is known as Abermaw (as above) in Welsh, but the bridge is known as "(Bont-y-)Bermo"?

 

[Spamcan81]

I'd have thought it was out of range? Presumably also the reason why the munitions factories and many main military bases were so far north and west when the threat was mostly from the south and east.

I don't recall hearing of the Luftwaffe targeting let alone damaging any major bridges, but I may be wrong! However it seems that if something was of major strategic importance it could be mended or replaced by a temporary structure within a few days.

Not out of range, the Luftwaffe managed to bomb Belfast and that's further from their bases than Ribblehead. It would have been out of range of the fighter escorts though and any unescorted daylight raid would have been cut to ribbons by the RAF. Darkness would have given the bombers some protection but to hit a relatively small target such as a viaduct in the dark would have require an enormous amount of luck.

 

[deltic08]

Regarding the line between Clapham and Tebay I'm pretty certain that at least one of the viaducts on the route remains intact but I can't remember where. From memory the route closed in the early 1960's and was used to store redundant wagons for a short while. The line is partially featured in one of Ivo Peters books.

Low Gill viaduct still intact plus the part masonry part cast arch viaduct a few miles towards Sedbergh. Also Ingleton Viaduct. Trying to think of anymore around Kirkby Lonsdale.

Route remained open for irregular traffic and diversions until 1966. Duchess hauled WCML trains were diverted this way regularly from Boars Head Junction through Blackburn, Hellifield, Settle Junction, Clapham to Low Gill.

A special was put on each beginning and end of term for boarders at Sedbergh School as far as Tebay long after end of regular services. Usually an Ivatt Dooble Bug and three or four coaches. The last one ran in 1965.

There was a series of railway films on the BBC where the opening or closing titles showed an engineers train crossing Low Gill viaduct in the direction of Low Gill Jnc again I think hauled by an Ivatt class 4 2-6-0 and then lap dissolves into the disused viaduct in colour.

 

[Spamcan81]

Low Gill viaduct still intact plus the part masonry part cast arch viaduct a few miles towards Sedbergh. Also Ingleton Viaduct. Trying to think of anymore around Kirkby Lonsdale.

Route remained open for irregular traffic and diversions until 1966. Duchess hauled WCML trains were diverted this way regularly from Boars Head Junction through Blackburn, Hellifield, Settle Junction, Clapham to Low Gill.

A special was put on each beginning and end of term for boarders at Sedbergh School as far as Tebay long after end of regular services. Usually an Ivatt Dooble Bug and three or four coaches. The last one ran in 1965.

There was a series of railway films on the BBC where the opening or closing titles showed an engineers train crossing Low Gill viaduct in the direction of Low Gill Jnc again I think hauled by an Ivatt class 4 2-6-0 and then lap dissolves into the disused viaduct in colour.

The Train Now Departing. An excellent series.

 

[deltic08]

The junction with the Lancaster and Carlisle was at Low at the foot of Grayrigg bank where they M6 now crosses above the WCML.

Low Gill viaduct on the Clapham Junction (North Yorks) to Low Gill route. It can be seen clearly from the WCML and M6.

Not strictly true. Low Gill Junction is/was in the Lune Gorge where the track is level all the way to former Dillicar troughs (they had to be level to retain water) and Tebay station at the foot of the 1:75 climb to Shap Summit. The top of the climb of Grayrigg bank is where Grayrigg Signal Box and station used to be and where the Up and Down Loops are. The M6 crosses the WCML at this point where Grayrigg bank eases to level on a reverse curve. I think that Grayrigg is 1:85

The foot of Grayrigg Bank is at Oxenholme where the banking engines were shedded.

Yes, Low Gill viaduct is easily seen from both WCML and M6.
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How did I forget Bont-y-Bermo??

By the way (FAO QueensCurve), I did say amongst The most scenic routes, not "IS the most scenic route". :roll:

Me too. Not exactly small as any viaduct or bridge goes.
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The Train Now Departing. An excellent series.

Yes. I just couldn't recall the name. Thank you. I never forget a face but putting a name to a face is getting harder.
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In which case I woulod say that the Higland mainline from Perth to Inverness gives it a run for it's money.

At the risk of setting back Anglo-Scottish relations decades, I do not regard a mostly single line as a mainline. The S&C is double track throughout and was engineered as a fast route. Diverted double headed Class 50s would maintain 100mph north of Helm Tunnel for long stretches.

I do agree that it is probably more scenic than the S&C and Findhorn and Culloden Viaducts are as spectacular as any on the S&C.

 

[Railsigns]

The S&C is double track throughout

Apart from the bit that isn't (i.e. the subject of this thread).

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Not out of range, the Luftwaffe managed to bomb Belfast and that's further from their bases than Ribblehead. It would have been out of range of the fighter escorts though and any unescorted daylight raid would have been cut to ribbons by the RAF. Darkness would have given the bombers some protection but to hit a relatively small target such as a viaduct in the dark would have require an enormous amount of luck.

But that was using Ju88s which had the range needed

 

[HSTEd]

If coal dissapears as expected, what is left using this line other than the passenger trains?

 

[RichmondCommu]

If coal dissapears as expected, what is left using this line other than the passenger trains?

Coal has disappeared! In answer to your question aggregate, cement, timber, gypsum and I think infrastructure services.

 

[Senex]

The S&C is double track throughout and was engineered as a fast route. Diverted double headed Class 50s would maintain 100mph north of Helm Tunnel for long stretches.

Whilst it is certainly true that the S&C was engineered to be a fast competitive main line, any Class-50-hauled train running at a sustained 100mph would have been very substantially exceeding the line speed-limit. During the 1960s and probably the 1970s this was 80mph (though with a 10-mile section at 70mph on the summit plateau), and then it was reduced right down to the 60mph throughout that still applies.

 

[coppercapped]

Not out of range, the Luftwaffe managed to bomb Belfast and that's further from their bases than Ribblehead. It would have been out of range of the fighter escorts though and any unescorted daylight raid would have been cut to ribbons by the RAF. Darkness would have given the bombers some protection but to hit a relatively small target such as a viaduct in the dark would have require an enormous amount of luck.

Bombing viaducts was a pointless exercise - all that happened was the piers got chipped. Hitting one was almost impossible, even seeing it, a tiny thin line, from 15,000 feet would have been an achievement.

The first successful attack was carried out by 617 Squadron, the Dambusters, in March 1945 using the 'Grand Slam' 10 ton bomb in a daylight raid. The Bielefeld Viaduct south of Bremen had had 3,500 tons of bombs aimed at it but remained undamaged, a photograph in Paul Brickhill's book 'The Dambuster' (Evans Brothers, London, 1951) shows the surrounding countryside looking like a photograph of a World War 1 battlefield. It was hit by one 'Grand Slam' which had penetrated to a depth of about 100 feet and the resulting explosion had created an underground cavity into which six piers over a distance of 100 yards had collapsed.

With the size of the bombs available to the Luftwaffe, Ribblehead and all the other viaducts would have survived.

 

[yorksrob]

Although the Luftwaffe managed to blow a pretty impressive hole in London Road Viaduct, Brighton:

http://www.brightonlocoworks.co.uk/london-road-viaduct-old-photos.php

A temporary girder bridge was put across the gap fairly speedily.

 

[JB_B]

Although the Luftwaffe managed to blow a pretty impressive hole in London Road Viaduct, Brighton:

http://www.brightonlocoworks.co.uk/london-road-viaduct-old-photos.php

A temporary girder bridge was put across the gap fairly speedily.

You can still see where the damaged span was - the replacement was built in a different style. I've always liked that old image of the viaduct (at the base of the page linked to above). It suggests a rather terrifying descent from the main line junction.

 

[yorksrob]

You can still see where the damaged span was - the replacement was built in a different style. I've always liked that old image of the viaduct (at the base of the page linked to above). It suggests a rather terrifying descent from the main line junction.

Yes, it looks more like a fairground ride in that picture !

 

[30907]

You'd forgotten about the Glasgow & South Western, the current saviour of the WCML ninety years after the company's death, along with LNWR, MR and CR?

I'm pretty certain the routeing of S&C Nottingham-Glasgow trains, there's a recent thread devoted to their resurrection, continued to be via Dumfries until they were ended in the 1970s. There may even have been sleepers wandering round that way to St Pancras/King's Cross area in the era, something that has a further resonance this week...

The Thames Clyde or its successor was switched to via Beattock after WCML electrification, from memory 1150 off Glasgow C, but the Leeds-Glasgow (the one with the Gresley buffet car in the early 70's, later Nottingham-Glasgow) stayed with the Sou West, 1610(?) off Central. And I'm fairly sure the sleepers also went GSW to the end.

 

[Class 170101]

Coal has disappeared! In answer to your question aggregate, cement, timber, gypsum and I think infrastructure services.

Some Biomass maybe?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Some Biomass maybe?

No for the simple reason that no Biomass comes through Hunterston. The only remaining coal traffic from Hunterston either goes straight down the WCML to Fiddlers Ferry or via Hexham to Drax.

 

[MarkRedon]

The active thread full of zany suggestions concerning (inter alia) Nottingham <-> Glasgow via Appleby and Dumfries is at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124435.

It made sense to limit speeds on the S&C when its principle raison d'être was heavy freight. How much more would it cost to maintain the line for, say, 80 mph? Sprinter only or all traffic? and would that pay for the benefits in terms of extra through and/or local passenger traffic? In other words, what is the dreaded benefits to cost ratio BCR for this kind of marginal improvement in passenger experience and in continuing to justify this splendid railway?

 

[deltic08]

No for the simple reason that no Biomass comes through Hunterston. The only remaining coal traffic from Hunterston either goes straight down the WCML to Fiddlers Ferry or via Hexham to Drax.

Not at the moment it doesn't. Landslide near Hexham has closed the line for three weeks until 50,000 tons has been removed and the remaining slopes stabilised.

There is always the possibility of Hunterston converting to biomass. As most comes from Canada, unloading on the west coast is more convenient and quicker turnround time than ports on the east side.
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Whilst it is certainly true that the S&C was engineered to be a fast competitive main line, any Class-50-hauled train running at a sustained 100mph would have been very substantially exceeding the line speed-limit. During the 1960s and probably the 1970s this was 80mph (though with a 10-mile section at 70mph on the summit plateau), and then it was reduced right down to the 60mph throughout that still applies.

I thought that line speed was eased at the north end for the duration when the WCML was closed during weekdays for electrification and resignalling work.

 

[Spamcan81]

Bombing viaducts was a pointless exercise - all that happened was the piers got chipped. Hitting one was almost impossible, even seeing it, a tiny thin line, from 15,000 feet would have been an achievement.

The first successful attack was carried out by 617 Squadron, the Dambusters, in March 1945 using the 'Grand Slam' 10 ton bomb in a daylight raid. The Bielefeld Viaduct south of Bremen had had 3,500 tons of bombs aimed at it but remained undamaged, a photograph in Paul Brickhill's book 'The Dambuster' (Evans Brothers, London, 1951) shows the surrounding countryside looking like a photograph of a World War 1 battlefield. It was hit by one 'Grand Slam' which had penetrated to a depth of about 100 feet and the resulting explosion had created an underground cavity into which six piers over a distance of 100 yards had collapsed.

With the size of the bombs available to the Luftwaffe, Ribblehead and all the other viaducts would have survived.

Slight correction. The Bielefeld viaduct wasn't hit by the Grand Slam but of course it didn't need to be. The resultant shock wave and underground cavity as you mentioned did the damage. They weren't nicknames "earthquake bombs" for nothing.
Regarding conventional bombs, a couple of direct hits would do the job but as has been pointed out, achieving that accuracy was nigh on impossible. A dive bomber may have achieved it but no way we're any Stukas going to reach Ribblehead.

 

[HSTEd]

Remember that biomass will be going to existing plant which has a limited lifespan. In the long run any new biomass plant will be built on the dockside where it can access the material straight off the ship.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

I thought that line speed was eased at the north end for the duration when the WCML was closed during weekdays for electrification and resignalling work.

I can't say it is absolutely not true, but I certainly never heard of any 100 mph running on the S&C, and i have serious doubts it would be possible - not necessarily from a track point of view over the section you mention - but I doubt the braking distances would be within limits - my bet would be that distant signals would almost certainly need to be re-sited for such speeds.

And BR was not going to do that merely for diverted trains when it later planned to close the line.

I'm fairly sure the line speed was 80 mph in 1971. I didn't notice that the central section over the top was a 70 mph max, as Senex mentions. I was on the footplate of a 45 on the down Thames-Clyde, and the crew seemed pretty keen on making up time after a delay before Shipley.

 

[coppercapped]

Slight correction. The Bielefeld viaduct wasn't hit by the Grand Slam but of course it didn't need to be. The resultant shock wave and underground cavity as you mentioned did the damage. They weren't nicknames "earthquake bombs" for nothing.
Regarding conventional bombs, a couple of direct hits would do the job but as has been pointed out, achieving that accuracy was nigh on impossible. A dive bomber may have achieved it but no way we're any Stukas going to reach Ribblehead.

Maybe I should have written 'destroyed' rather than 'hit'? It was clear from the photographic evidence at the time that it was a very near miss.

You are right about the accuracy needed. 617 also bombed the Antheor Viaduct in Italy with 12,000 lb 'blockbuster' bombs - not the 'Tallboys' - at the time the Allies were trying break out of the Anzio bridgehead. One exploded 15 yards away and another 6 a bit further away. The closest one was 5 yards too far away, the bridge was chipped but still stood. Breaking a bridge is very difficult unless it receives a direct hit.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I appreciate that this is rather off topic but going back to the stations that closed in 1970 I'm always surprised that Kirkby Stephen was one of them.

 

[deltic08]

I can't say it is absolutely not true, but I certainly never heard of any 100 mph running on the S&C, and i have serious doubts it would be possible - not necessarily from a track point of view over the section you mention - but I doubt the braking distances would be within limits - my bet would be that distant signals would almost certainly need to be re-sited for such speeds.

And BR was not going to do that merely for diverted trains when it later planned to close the line.

I'm fairly sure the line speed was 80 mph in 1971. I didn't notice that the central section over the top was a 70 mph max, as Senex mentions. I was on the footplate of a 45 on the down Thames-Clyde, and the crew seemed pretty keen on making up time after a delay before Shipley.

You have now. Stock was air-braked remember and pulls up better than vacuum that was the norm when signals were installed. I logged 100mph on the S&C more than once between Helm Tunnel and Appleby in the dip over the Eden Viaduct and 90-95mph in other places on these diverted double headers using full mileposts only. The 40mph gypsum slack at Long Marton stopped sustained high speeds for longer north of Appleby. Speeds were more reserved south of Ais Gill.

Ossie Nock published a southbound log I think of 100mph on such a train in the Railway Magazine around 1971/72 if anybody still has copies. Will try and find my copy to verify.

I have been behind a class 40 down Mallerstang above 90mph so track must have been in reasonable condition for these speeds as ride was not bad from memory even in a Mark1.

Apart from logging 119mph behind a Deltic one day in 1977 trying to make up a 20 minute late departure from KX on the Leeds Executive and a class 90/Mark2 charter clocked on radar at 116mph in 1993 through Welwyn whose driver forgot he wasn't driving a class 91, drivers usually keep to within 5mph of linespeed or stock speed maxima, speedometer under reading excepted, so I would imagine linespeed was eased in places but possibly not as high as 100mph as you say. I must say that travelling at this speed on the S&C was very exhilarating even if illegal. No black boxes in those days to regulate drivers.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Slight correction. The Bielefeld viaduct wasn't hit by the Grand Slam but of course it didn't need to be. The resultant shock wave and underground cavity as you mentioned did the damage. They weren't nicknames "earthquake bombs" for nothing.
Regarding conventional bombs, a couple of direct hits would do the job but as has been pointed out, achieving that accuracy was nigh on impossible. A dive bomber may have achieved it but no way we're any Stukas going to reach Ribblehead.

They might have if they'd ever got them carriers working... I remember reading about a naval Stuka that was tested

 

[deltic08]

Maybe I should have written 'destroyed' rather than 'hit'? It was clear from the photographic evidence at the time that it was a very near miss.

You are right about the accuracy needed. 617 also bombed the Antheor Viaduct in Italy with 12,000 lb 'blockbuster' bombs - not the 'Tallboys' - at the time the Allies were trying break out of the Anzio bridgehead. One exploded 15 yards away and another 6 a bit further away. The closest one was 5 yards too far away, the bridge was chipped but still stood. Breaking a bridge is very difficult unless it receives a direct hit.

A stick of smaller bombs dropped at an angle of 20 degrees to a linear target is more accurate than one big bomb. This is the way it was done to disable the runway at Stanley airport during the Falklands conflict.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I logged 100mph on the S&C more than once between Helm Tunnel and Appleby in the dip over the Eden Viaduct and 90-95mph in other places on these diverted double headers. The 40mph gypsum slack at Long Marton stopped sustained high speeds north of Appleby.

<sigh> Deltic08, I do wish you would not move the goal posts in a discussion. This is not the first instance that I have noted.

You orginally wrote, in reply to Senex: "I thought that line speed was eased at the north end for the duration when the WCML was closed during weekdays for electrification and resignalling work."

By which I took you to be saying that the PW and operating departments had somehow passed the line for 100 mph. Officially. So that is what i was answering. (Even though I have never heard of the term 'eased' in this context.)

I was not answering whether it was physically possible to do 90mph, or 100 mph on a line with miles and miles of downhill running from Ais Gill summit. It almost certainly is. But for the line to be officially passed for any increase in maximum speed - or 'eased' as you put it - is no simple matter.

Whether any 50s, 45s of 40s ever exceeded the 80mph line speed is another matter. I'm sure they did. On my trip with a 45 they did, marginally. Did Cl 50s ever go to 100 mph with an 80 mph line speed? Well, personally, I doubt any driver would go so far over the official limit. You say they did. I remain sceptical.

Having said that, I suppose, on a local level, with the full knowledge of the operating department and under good conditions (weather etc) it is possible for a one-off test to have been undertaken.

But in response to your assertion that any part of the line was 'eased' to 100 mph, meaning officially passed for 100 mph running (for locos and stock otherwise cleared for this speed), I repeat my opinion. I think it highly unlikely, and the number one reason I would expect to be cited - if, indeed, the operating department ever asked if it might be possible - would be braking distances. I very much doubt the signalling on the line would be up to 100mph standards.

Indeed, thinking only now that the line did not have AWS fitted, I think that alone would be enough to nix any chance of it being passed for 90 mph in the 1970s, let alone 100 mph - but perhaps others in here would know better.

....

Ossie Nock published a log of 100mph on such a train in the Railway Magazine around 1971/72 if anybody still has copies. Will try and find mine to verify.

I have been behind a class 40 down Mallerstang above 90mph so track must have been in reasonable condition for these speeds as ride was not bad from memory even in a Mark1.

Once again, there is a difference between a one-off train unofficially doing (in this case, as you claim) 10 mph over the line limit and officially passing that section for higher speeds under all conditions. The track maintenance schedule would be different too.

As for Mk 1 stock, on B4 or Commonwealth bogies the ride would have been no different from a Mk 2 carriage. In fact, a Mk 1 on Commonwealths was probably better.

Apart from logging 119mph behind a Deltic one day in 1977 trying to make up a 20 minute late departure from KX on the Leeds Executive, drivers usually keep to within 5mph of linespeed maxima speedometer under reading excepted.

Having been on the footplate numerous times in the 1970s (officially and otherwise) I am aware of what drivers felt they could typically 'get away with'. Which is exactly why I remain very sceptical of any driver taking the personal risk of drving a train up to 100 mph - 20 mph above line speed - on the S&C at any point on the line, OS Nock's claims notwithstanding.

I would imagine it would be a Form 1 offence.

 

[misterredmist]

A stick of smaller bombs dropped at an angle of 20 degrees to a linear target is more accurate than one big bomb. This is the way it was done to disable the runway at Stanley airport during the Falklands conflict.

More accurate it was........ put the runway out of action ?, no Sir, it didn't