Ribblehead Viaduct

[QueensCurve]

(The past tense of "slew" is "slewed".)

The last thing the S&C was is over engineered - it was built in a hurry, cheaply and out of spite and spite alone.

But it is less curvacious and than the Lancaster and Carlisle and has a shallower ruling gradient too.

In that sense it is perhaps "better engineered"?

As to being built "out of spite", perhaps the spite was on the part of the L&NWR who, having bought the Lancaster and Carlisle, delayed the Midland's trains on route to carlisle?

Hence the Midland's GM summoned his engineer to his office, imperiously drew a line on the map between Settle and Carlisle and demanded a line be built on that route.

 

[backontrack]

It might be slow, expensive to maintain, and serve little intermediate population but I'm glad they did, as it is regularly voted among the most scenic railway routes in Britain, Europe, and the World.

I'm not sure it's worth the loss of life exactly, but as you say it is definitely a brilliant scenic railway and I'm glad that it exists.

 

[QueensCurve]

It seems that stone was the material of choice for Victorian railway pioneers, with bricks or iron being a later development along with mixtures of two or more of the above. Timber was also used but I'm not aware of any substantial surviving timber viaducts still in use. The original Penistone viaduct was timber and collapsed to be replaced with a more typical stone structure, Longroyd Bridge/Paddock viaduct is a combination of stone arches and stone pillars with iron spans in the central section (and has needed significant work in recent years) and if I remember correctly Meldon is a combination of iron and timber, and would need significant work to see regular use again. There is of course concrete as used at Glenfinnan and more recently Medway which is more likely to be the material of choice for HS2 I'd have thought. Isn't Stockport viaduct the largest brick structure in Europe?

Worth mentioning that Dinting Viaduct had to be reinforced by the addition of additional piers.

Glenfinnan and other structures on the WHL extentsion to Mallaig are built of non-reinforced concrete. Modern structures would be reinforced.
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It might be slow, expensive to maintain, and serve little intermediate population but I'm glad they did, as it is regularly voted among the most scenic railway routes in Britain, Europe, and the World.

Certainly the most scenic route in England, but in my view the West Highland line is scenically better in Britain and many routes in Switzerland still better.

 

[najaB]

Timber was also used but I'm not aware of any substantial surviving timber viaducts still in use.

Allt na Slanaich Viaduct is reasonably substantial.

 

[Railsigns]

Allt na Slanaich Viaduct is reasonably substantial.

It was replaced several years ago by a steel structure but some of the original timbers were retained for aesthetic reasons.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110107183648/http:/www.betterpublicbuilding.org.uk/finalists/2004/moyviaduct/

 

[HowardGWR]

Eventually the MR decided to build it's own route to Carlisle Citadel from Skipton via Settle which bypassed the LNWR and got them straight into Carlisle from where they could work with various Scottish railway companies for onward transport to Scotland proper (the North British Railway to Edinburgh via the Waverley Line and the Caledonian Railway via the WCML to Glasgow).

I thought it was the G and SWR that made the deal with the MR; the CR was in league with the LNWR (I thought).

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought it was the G and SWR that made the deal with the MR; the CR was in league with the LNWR (I thought).

Hmm possibly now you mention it! To be honest I'd sort of forgotten about them

 

[70014IronDuke]

It might be slow, expensive to maintain, and serve little intermediate population but I'm glad they did, as it is regularly voted among the most scenic railway routes in Britain, Europe, and the World.

I suspect that Churchill and Lloyd-George (or their respective ministers of transport and war in WW1 and WW2) would have said they were very grateful for the S&C for more fundamental reasons.

The area north of Carlisle and onto Annan was, of course, nome to a complex of very important munitions factories.

ADD: an interesting thought, did the Luftwaffe ever target Ribblehead? It would have knocked the line out of the war had they hit the viaduct. (or any others on the route.)

 

[edwin_m]

ADD: an interesting thought, did the Luftwaffe ever target Ribblehead? It would have knocked the line out of the war had they hit the viaduct. (or any others on the route.)

I'd have thought it was out of range? Presumably also the reason why the munitions factories and many main military bases were so far north and west when the threat was mostly from the south and east.

I don't recall hearing of the Luftwaffe targeting let alone damaging any major bridges, but I may be wrong! However it seems that if something was of major strategic importance it could be mended or replaced by a temporary structure within a few days.

 

[Elecman]

The Luftwaffe rarely targeted specific infrastructure as bombs of fat era were inherently un aerodynamic to be able to hit specific buildings/ bridges without a form of carpet bombing. indeed it was late in the war before bombs became aerodynamic enough for the allies to specifically target bridges.

 

[najaB]

However it seems that if something was of major strategic importance it could be mended or replaced by a temporary structure within a few days.

Indeed. And the temporary structure might be replaced by something more permanent in as little as ten or fifteen years!

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Luftwaffe rarely targeted specific infrastructure as bombs of fat era were inherently un aerodynamic to be able to hit specific buildings/ bridges without a form of carpet bombing. indeed it was late in the war before bombs became aerodynamic enough for the allies to specifically target bridges.

I am sure you are right - but they did attack ships, with horribly accurate results, in the Channel, didn't they? Perhaps they were using Stukas - which were hopeless for long-haul jobs and very vulnerable to decent fighter attacks.
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I'd have thought it was out of range? Presumably also the reason why the munitions factories and many main military bases were so far north and west when the threat was mostly from the south and east.

I don't recall hearing of the Luftwaffe targeting let alone damaging any major bridges, but I may be wrong! However it seems that if something was of major strategic importance it could be mended or replaced by a temporary structure within a few days.

More difficult than London, but definitely within range. They bombed Swansea, Belfast and Glasgow. The UK government certainly feared for the Forth Bridge. No chance of fixing that within a few days had they hit it properly. Nor Ribblehead, I suspect.

EDIT: thinking about it, however, it was probably far more efficient (from the German pov) to attack cities in general, as any attack on a piece of infrastructure such as Ribblehead would have probably seen 90% of munitions killing sheep. Bomb a town/city like Derby, and there was a fair chance you'd hit the railway, railway works or associated industry with a higher percentage of munitions dropped.

 

[47271]

Hmm possibly now you mention it! To be honest I'd sort of forgotten about them

You'd forgotten about the Glasgow & South Western, the current saviour of the WCML ninety years after the company's death, along with LNWR, MR and CR?

I'm pretty certain the routeing of S&C Nottingham-Glasgow trains, there's a recent thread devoted to their resurrection, continued to be via Dumfries until they were ended in the 1970s. There may even have been sleepers wandering round that way to St Pancras/King's Cross area in the era, something that has a further resonance this week...

 

[ainsworth74]

The Luftwaffe rarely targeted specific infrastructure as bombs of fat era were inherently un aerodynamic to be able to hit specific buildings/ bridges without a form of carpet bombing. indeed it was late in the war before bombs became aerodynamic enough for the allies to specifically target bridges.

It wasn't that the bombs weren't aerodynamic (they were very aerodynamic hence they could often achieve very accurate results against shipping for example) but targeting was very hard to do unless you were at low level and in day light. This was mostly due to the issues of navigation (remember no GPS and inertial navigation systems were in their infancy) making it hard to locate a specific target. Much easier to find a city and once there drop bombs indiscriminately all over it. The other issue was the technology to aim a bomb from altitude and account for various factors that might affect it during it's fall was also in its infancy.

You'd forgotten about the Glasgow & South Western, the current saviour of the WCML ninety years after the company's death, along with LNWR, MR and CR?

Yes, yes I did to my ever lasting shame

 

[RichmondCommu]

To start with the LNWR were doing their best to be obstructive with unreasonable demands for compensation to take MR traffic or by making things operationally difficult (attaching MR through coaches to slow trains rather than expresses). The LNWR held the upper hand as they main link between the MR and the LNWR to Carlisle via a branch line that linked from Skipton to Tebay (on the WCML) via Clapham (Yorkshire not London ).

From what I've read as you say the LNWR were absolute rats and would leave the MR carriages at Tebay for some considerable time before attaching them to north bound freight trains!

Regarding the line between Clapham and Tebay I'm pretty certain that at least one of the viaducts on the route remains intact but I can't remember where. From memory the route closed in the early 1960's and was used to store redundant wagons for a short while. The line is partially featured in one of Ivo Peters books.
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Hence the Midland's GM summoned his engineer to his office, imperiously drew a line on the map between Settle and Carlisle and demanded a line be built on that route.

Again this is all from memory but the engineer who surveyed the line was a Kiwi and by all accounts walked the entire route. Members who know the area well may have heard of a house called Gear Stones which is a few minutes drive from Ribblehead; the Kiwi born engineer was snowed in there for some time. I've also got a feeling that the poor fella died before the line was completed but for the life of me I can't remember his name!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I'd have thought it was out of range? Presumably also the reason why the munitions factories and many main military bases were so far north and west when the threat was mostly from the south and east.

I don't recall hearing of the Luftwaffe targeting let alone damaging any major bridges, but I may be wrong! However it seems that if something was of major strategic importance it could be mended or replaced by a temporary structure within a few days.

Not for an FW 200 it wouldn't have been... With a full load and a couple of small 50LB bombs, they'd be enough range to get there from France, bomb the viaduct and then escape to Occupied Norway
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Including an unfortunate horse, as I recall reading!

I wasn't aware that the route was built out of spite, rather desperation that the LNWR (I assume these owned the WCML at the time) were causing operational problems North of Ingleborough to the MR.

Either way, I can see how such a 'distress purchase' might have been built to a lesser spec.

I was thinking particularly of the elevated approaches to cities where tracks seem to change position regularly over the decades.

That horse was at the Glenfinnan Viaduct - not ribblehead

 

[Emblematic]

That horse was at the Glenfinnan Viaduct - not ribblehead

Although that was the legend for many years, there was always some doubt as to the exact location of the accident. In 2001 the remains of the horse and cart were found in the central pier of Loch Nan Uamh Viaduct by radar imaging, having previously failed to find any evidence at Glenfinnan. http://www.moidart.org.uk/justoutside/horseinviaduct/horseinviaduct.htm

 

[yorksrob]

Regarding the line between Clapham and Tebay I'm pretty certain that at least one of the viaducts on the route remains intact but I can't remember where. From memory the route closed in the early 1960's and was used to store redundant wagons for a short while. The line is partially featured in one of Ivo Peters books.

There's a very substantial looking viaduct in the middle of Ingleton.

 

[Senex]

From what I've read as you say the LNWR were absolute rats and would leave the MR carriages at Tebay for some considerable time before attaching them to north bound freight trains! ...

Again this is all from memory but the engineer who surveyed the line was a Kiwi and by all accounts walked the entire route. Members who know the area well may have heard of a house called Gear Stones which is a few minutes drive from Ribblehead; the Kiwi born engineer was snowed in there for some time. I've also got a feeling that the poor fella died before the line was completed but for the life of me I can't remember his name!

As soon as the Settle & Carlisle Act was passed the LNW suddenly became much more reasonable and an agreement was reached on 11th November 1868. The first clause reads: "The Midland to have equal rights with the London and North Western of user and control of the Lancaster and Carlisle between Ingleton and Carlisle, with joint management by a joint committee, with a standing arbitrator, with full power to the Midland to fix their own rates and fares." The penultimate clause: "This agreement to be void, unless sanctioned by Parliament in the session of 1869, together with the abandonment of the Settle and Carlisle."

As is generally known, the proposal to abandon the S&C was strongly opposed by both the Lancashire & Yorkshire and the Glasgow & South Western and parliament threw it out. So the Midland had to get on and build a line they actually no longer wanted. It was difficult and expensive, and the final cost was getting on to twice as much as the estimates.

The Tasmanian engineer was called Sharland, it is said. His name does not appear in any of the Midland records about the line that I have seen, General supervision was by the company's Engineer, John Crossley, and the line was his last major work for the company. If I remember right, he retired a little before the opening. On his retirement the Midland board voted him a gratuity of £10,000 in acknowledgement of all his work for the company and very much in recognition of his work on the S&C.

 

[jp4712]

Yes, I too was going to point out that the LYR was at least as keen as the GSWR for the Midland to proceed (it's always a pleasure to make someone else spend their money!). The LYR had to hand over Scottish consignments to the LNWR at Preston, so the junction at Hellifield to give them the option of playing the LNWR and MR off against each other as bidders for the lucrative LYR traffic from East Lancashire became crucially important.

However in the twentieth century there was a rapprochement between the LYR and the LNWR so that the two merged from January 1922, a year before the grouping. Even so the LYR maintained a shed at Hellifield (in practice stabling them at the MR shed) as a sub-shed to Lower Darwen until the LMS closed the unit in 1927.

 

[snowball]

Regarding the line between Clapham and Tebay I'm pretty certain that at least one of the viaducts on the route remains intact but I can't remember where.!

There's a very substantial looking viaduct in the middle of Ingleton.

There's also Lowgill Viaduct, close to the former junction with the WCML and (if I remember correctly) visible form the M6. The junction was not actually at Tebay but about five miles south.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There's a very substantial looking viaduct in the middle of Ingleton.

That's the one I was thinking of, many thanks Rob!
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The Tasmanian engineer was called Sharland, it is said. His name does not appear in any of the Midland records about the line that I have seen, General supervision was by the company's Engineer, John Crossley, and the line was his last major work for the company. If I remember right, he retired a little before the opening. On his retirement the Midland board voted him a gratuity of £10,000 in acknowledgement of all his work for the company and very much in recognition of his work on the S&C.

Many thanks for the correction. I have a book by O S Nock which describes the S & C in great detail and includes quite a bit about Mr Sharland. I'm away from home this week but I'm pretty certain that he died a young man. £10,000 must have been a fantastic amount of money in those days.

 

[deltic08]

I dunno if I'd have said spite but the S&C was built by the Midland Railway due to a dispute between it and the London & North Western Railway over access to Carlisle for Scotland and then some rather good lobbying by other Railway companies.

To start with the LNWR were doing their best to be obstructive with unreasonable demands for compensation to take MR traffic or by making things operationally difficult (attaching MR through coaches to slow trains rather than expresses). The LNWR held the upper hand as they main link between the MR and the LNWR to Carlisle via a branch line that linked from Skipton to Tebay (on the WCML) via Clapham (Yorkshire not London ).

Eventually the MR decided to build it's own route to Carlisle Citadel from Skipton via Settle which bypassed the LNWR and got them straight into Carlisle from where they could work with various Scottish railway companies for onward transport to Scotland proper (the North British Railway to Edinburgh via the Waverley Line and the Caledonian Railway via the WCML to Glasgow).

Before construction began the LNWR gave into the MR and offered them reasonable terms over the existing route but the Caledonian and North British didn't want to be reliant on the LNWR for services south from Carlisle so lobbied for the MR route to be built anyway. And, as history shows, they were successful in that endeavour and the MR had to build it anyway.

So from the MR's perspective it ended up having to build a railway which it no longer needed or wanted solely because some other railways demanded that fullfil the obligations of an Act of Parliament, the original intention of which, had been rendered moot due to subsequent events.

At least that's what I picked up the last time I looked into this in any detail!

I would like to add that both LNWR had built a branch from the West at Lowgill and MR from the East at Skipton to Ingleton but they didn't join up. There was a gap of a few hundred yards between respective stations so passengers had to walk the gap until a viaduct was built between the two ends. This became known as the Little North Western route and this is when the trouble started with through carriages. Had the LNWR been more cooperative, the S&C would never have been built.

Clapham-Carnforth was a later addition creating two Clapham junctions.
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That would explain the issue I half-remembered then, with most of the strength being in the outside walls as a result.

It seems that stone was the material of choice for Victorian railway pioneers, with bricks or iron being a later development along with mixtures of two or more of the above. Timber was also used but I'm not aware of any substantial surviving timber viaducts still in use. The original Penistone viaduct was timber and collapsed to be replaced with a more typical stone structure, Longroyd Bridge/Paddock viaduct is a combination of stone arches and stone pillars with iron spans in the central section (and has needed significant work in recent years) and if I remember correctly Meldon is a combination of iron and timber, and would need significant work to see regular use again. There is of course concrete as used at Glenfinnan and more recently Medway which is more likely to be the material of choice for HS2 I'd have thought. Isn't Stockport viaduct the largest brick structure in Europe?

Timber viaduct still in use on the Highland mainline between Tomatin and Moy.

Just read the post saying it has been replaced. I thought new timbers had been replaced in the overhaul.
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Certainly the most scenic route in England, but in my view the West Highland line is scenically better in Britain and many routes in Switzerland still better.

The missing word is most scenic mainline.

 

[najaB]

Just read the post saying it has been replaced. I thought new timbers had been replaced in the overhaul.

As did I. Apparently the timber frame is still there, but the majority of the load is carried by a steel core.

 

[snowball]

Again this is all from memory but the engineer who surveyed the line was a Kiwi and by all accounts walked the entire route. Members who know the area well may have heard of a house called Gear Stones which is a few minutes drive from Ribblehead; the Kiwi born engineer was snowed in there for some time. I've also got a feeling that the poor fella died before the line was completed but for the life of me I can't remember his name!

I heard a story that at the opening ceremony a lady asked him why he hadn't put Dent station nearer the village, and he replied "I considered it more important that it should be near the railway."

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Timber was also used but I'm not aware of any substantial surviving timber viaducts still in use.

Allt na Slanaich Viaduct is reasonably substantial.

Barmouth Bridge, and until recently Pont Briwet.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How did I forget Bont-y-Bermo??

By the way (FAO QueensCurve), I did say amongst The most scenic routes, not "IS the most scenic route". :roll:

 

[QueensCurve]

For those that are unaware Ruswarp was a very brave dog and remained faithful to his master after he died whilst out walking in the hills. Ruswarp stood guard over his master for several weeks and was close to starvation (in not the best of weather) until he was found and nursed back to health. In the end he survived just long enough to attend his master's funeral. All of this is from my memory and I'm sure deltic08 will help me out if I've missed something For those of you who are interested there is a statue of Ruswarp at Garsdale station.

A similar story to Greyfriars Bobby, which later became the name of a Class 47/7.
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Including an unfortunate horse, as I recall reading! .

That myth relates to the West Highland Line extension to Mallaig.

The myth has it that a horse, cart and driver were lost in one of the piers of Glenfinnan viaduct and buried in concrete where they lay.

Like all good myths it has an element of truth in it. The viaduct is not that at Glenfinnan but one of the other bridges on the route. The driver was rescued, but the horse and cart remain in concrete overshoes in the viaduct.
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ADD: an interesting thought, did the Luftwaffe ever target Ribblehead? It would have knocked the line out of the war had they hit the viaduct. (or any others on the route.)

I don't know about that, but Barrow station copped it.
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Regarding the line between Clapham and Tebay I'm pretty certain that at least one of the viaducts on the route remains intact but I can't remember where. From memory the route closed in the early 1960's and was used to store redundant wagons for a short while. The line is partially featured in one of Ivo Peters books.!

The junction with the Lancaster and Carlisle was at Low at the foot of Grayrigg bank where they M6 now crosses above the WCML.

Low Gill viaduct on the Clapham Junction (North Yorks) to Low Gill route. It can be seen clearly from the WCML and M6.

 

[deltic08]

As did I. Apparently the timber frame is still there, but the majority of the load is carried by a steel core.

Very well disguised as a timber viaduct. Still fits in very nicely with the landscape.

 

[QueensCurve]

The missing word is most scenic mainline.

In which case I woulod say that the Higland mainline from Perth to Inverness gives it a run for it's money.

 

[edwin_m]

I would like to add that both LNWR had built a branch from the West at Lowgill and MR from the East at Skipton to Ingleton but they didn't join up. There was a gap of a few hundred yards between respective stations so passengers had to walk the gap until a viaduct was built between the two ends. This became known as the Little North Western route and this is when the trouble started with through carriages. Had the LNWR been more cooperative, the S&C would never have been built.

You probably know this but just to clarify for anyone who doesn't, the "little" North Western was the North Western Railway running from Skipton to Ingleton, Morecambe and Heysham. It was nothing to do with the London and North Western (other than joining to it in several places) and became part of the Midland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Little"_North_Western_Railway