Retro Railtours

[alex57601]

The third Retro Railtour would appear to now be open for bookings...

http://www.retrorailtours.co.uk/rt3.php

Not sure what's an EE Type 2 though.

 

[metrocammel]

http://www.retrorailtours.co.uk/rt3.php

Not sure what's an EE Type 2 though.

A Baby Deltic perhaps??

Anyway, the typo has been duly amended, as this tour is featuring Class 20s.


And yes, bookings are now well and truly open, we've had quite an influx online already!

 

[Techniquest]

Woah, sounds good! I am sorely tempted, I have to say!

Is this going to be a run-round at Rochdale then?

Will hopefully be able to book this one soon, £49 sounds a very good deal! All the way there and back I should imagine for me this time, not missing out on a hellfire performance like I did with the 56s on the return leg!

Also, will there ever be a tour starting from somewhere other than Huddersfield? Final query will be of coaching stock: I assume it's all MK2s or MK3s?

 

[Chester025]

Is this going to be a run-round at Rochdale then?

No, it will continue around the Oldam Loop so no need for a run round.

Final query will be of coaching stock: I assume it's all MK2s or MK3s?

Well it's got to be air cons due to clearence issues between Maryport - Carlisle.

Sounds like a good tour James!

 

[33011]

Also, will there ever be a tour starting from somewhere other than Huddersfield?

Yeah Deighton

 

[metrocammel]

Well it's got to be air cons due to clearence issues between Maryport - Carlisle.

Indeed. Also, more precisely, it has to be mk2s, as mk3s aren't passed around the Cumbrian Coast, so it will be full mk2 rake, with a mk1 kitchen for the dining provision.

 

[alex57601]

Well it's got to be air cons due to clearence issues between Maryport - Carlisle.

Correct. Whether the whingers will take note of this when they start complaining about it being air-cons again remains to be seen, but it's either air-cons or nothing.

 

[thso1973]

No, it will continue around the Oldam Loop so no need for a run round.



Well it's got to be air cons due to clearence issues between Maryport - Carlisle.

Sounds like a good tour James!

Where is it written down that it HAS to be aircons...???

 

[33011]

Correct. Whether the whingers will take note of this when they start complaining about it being air-cons again remains to be seen,

That is inevitable unfortunately Alex.

 

[87015]

Correct. Whether the whingers will take note of this when they start complaining about it being air-cons again remains to be seen, but it's either air-cons or nothing.

If its advertised then thats a different matter, and going via that route obviously translates to aircons. Unless you are WCRC of course who sent pv stock anyway last year with a complete bodge job of the windows for the section!

 

[33011]

If its advertised then thats a different matter, and going via that route obviously translates to aircons. Unless you are WCRC of course who sent pv stock anyway last year with a complete bodge job of the windows for the section!

If it was the Spitfire tour you are referring to as long as there are enough Stewards making sure the vestibles are kept clear and no one is sticking heads out etc then there is no problem with non aircons.

 

[alex57601]

Where is it written down that it HAS to be aircons...???

Right on cue. :roll:

The official line from Network Rail is that air-conditioned stock can only be used between Maryport and Carlisle, and that all vestibules must be stewarded so that nobody is window hanging - not even sticking your head out is allowed on this section.

If you have a problem with this, speak to Network Rail as it applies to ALL railtour promoters.

As for the Spitfire tour, I wasn't on it but I understand that the windows in the saloons were bolted shut, but it does not mean that PV stock can be used anyway. PV stock are only allowed if no passengers are being conveyed, so stuff like Mk1 kitchen cars will be allowed as it will not be conveying any passengers.

If its advertised then thats a different matter, and going via that route obviously translates to aircons.

I'm not going into a debate whether tours with air-con stock should be advertised as such or not, but for this tour it is irrelevant as there is no alternative.

 

[33011]

Right on cue. :roll:

The official line from Network Rail is that air-conditioned stock can only be used between Maryport and Carlisle, and that all vestibules must be stewarded so that nobody is window hanging - not even sticking your head out is allowed on this section.

If you have a problem with this, speak to Network Rail as it applies to ALL railtour promoters.

As for the Spitfire tour, I wasn't on it but I understand that the windows in the saloons were bolted shut, but it does not mean that PV stock can be used anyway. PV stock are only allowed if no passengers are being conveyed, so stuff like Mk1 kitchen cars will be allowed as it will not be conveying any passengers.

Can you substantiate that?

 

[Ascot]

Can you substantiate that?

Slightly. Hopefully someone else can come along and provide something better.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...uge capability_coaching stock_lnw_n route.pdf

 

[4SRKT]

Correct. Whether the whingers will take note of this when they start complaining about it being air-cons again remains to be seen, but it's either air-cons or nothing.

Well the other option is to terminate at Maryport and head back south for a repeat of the interesting Cumbrian Coast rather than the deadly dull section to Carlisle.

Whatever, if the route includes Maryport-Carlisle then aircons it must be, and nobody can have any beef with that. However, it's not advertised as such on the Retro Railways site. Frankly I wouldn't pay 49 pence to sit in a coffin all day. Call me a whinger if you want, but it's my choice and I was very interested in this tour when I first saw it. I'm really struggling to understand why some operators put on aircons all the time and then call those who don't like it 'whingers'. There are obviously a core of people out there who don't like this, whereas those who don't mind aircons surely also wouldn't mind/care if they were riding in a PV coach. Is it just that PVs are getting harder to source and the operators can't be arsed?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not going into a debate whether tours with air-con stock should be advertised as such or not, but for this tour it is irrelevant as there is no alternative.

Except that most people are likely to be totally unaware of this restriction, so it should be advertised anyway. On any tour not advertising aircons looks as though there is something to hide. Why not just be upfront if aircons are so great?

Nobody would accept an operator not advertising the traction, so why not the stock which is after all as much a part of the train?

 

[alex57601]

Well the other option is to terminate at Maryport and head back south for a repeat of the interesting Cumbrian Coast rather than the deadly dull section to Carlisle.

Hmm, and lose out on a lot of business due to the omission of a popular destination in favour of a destination which, despite its popularity in its own right, is not a patch on a city further up the line? Very good business case for the sake of avoiding air-cons.:roll:

Whatever, if the route includes Maryport-Carlisle then aircons it must be, and nobody can have any beef with that.

Agreed. Except that there are some people who already cannot get their heads around this.

However, it's not advertised as such on the Retro Railways site. Frankly I wouldn't pay 49 pence to sit in a coffin all day. Call me a whinger if you want, but it's my choice and I was very interested in this tour when I first saw it. I'm really struggling to understand why some operators put on aircons all the time and then call those who don't like it 'whingers'. There are obviously a core of people out there who don't like this, whereas those who don't mind aircons surely also wouldn't mind/care if they were riding in a PV coach. Is it just that PVs are getting harder to source and the operators can't be arsed?

Why should they? The needs of a few are outweighed by the needs of many, and most passengers are not bothered what stock is used as long as it is clean, presentable, comfortable and have working heat and light (and air-con). Retro are running tours to appeal to both daytrippers and cranks.

Oh, and if promoters sold tickets for 49 pence they would be out of business.

The fact is, railtour promoters have been moving towards air-con stock over the last few years as they offer a better ambience over PV stock, and the lack of options with regards to a rake of PV stock in a similar condition adds weight to the argument. Compass Tours have been using air-cons on all tours since 2005, much to the satisfaction of passengers, including cranks. And guess what? Nowhere on the Compass site does it advertise the stock as being air-cons. So if you're going to moan about Retro, why not do the same to Compass?

Quality sells. And quality in the form of PV stock is few and far between.

And as for this "core who don't like this", if it really was a large core promoters would know about this by now. I know of no complaints about the use of Mk3s on the last tour.

Except that most people are likely to be totally unaware of this restriction, so it should be advertised anyway.

There are more important things to be putting in advertisements than restrictions.

Nobody would accept an operator not advertising the traction, so why not the stock which is after all as much a part of the train?

Daytrippers included? You might be, cranks might be, but daytrippers aren't fussed as long as it gets them there, and in comfort. The exception perhaps, is steam, but that's a completely different argument.

Here's the crux of it. You have a Class 20 tour on offer, something which doesn't come about on a regular basis, so either take what's on offer or leave it.

Beggars can't be choosers!

 

[4SRKT]

Why should they? The needs of a few are outweighed by the needs of many, and most passengers are not bothered what stock is used as long as it is clean, presentable, comfortable and have working heat and light (and air-con). Retro are running tours to appeal to both daytrippers and cranks.

Why SHOULDN'T they? It would cost nothing and satisfy everyone. You are very antagonistic towards the idea of honesty on this score, yet you seem to think that aircons are miles better. Why not encourage operators to sing the praises of their chosen stock?

Oh, and if promoters sold tickets for 49 pence they would be out of business.
!

OK, your irony detector has failed, if it ever worked that is.

The fact is, railtour promoters have been moving towards air-con stock over the last few years as they offer a better ambience over PV stock, and the lack of options with regards to a rake of PV stock in a similar condition adds weight to the argument. Compass Tours have been using air-cons on all tours since 2005, much to the satisfaction of passengers, including cranks. And guess what? Nowhere on the Compass site does it advertise the stock as being air-cons. So if you're going to moan about Retro, why not do the same to Compass?

<Proceeds to complain about Compass, as indeed anyone should do about any company not honest about what it is offering.>

Quality sells. And quality in the form of PV stock is few and far between.
!

Why should this be so? It wouldn't be impossible to get a few rakes up to scratch.

And as for this "core who don't like this", if it really was a large core promoters would know about this by now. I know of no complaints about the use of Mk3s on the last tour. !

Plenty of complaints on here, and with people I speak to. But then these are presumable the sort of people unworthy of opinions in your view, i.e. people who like thrash and a few drinks. The fact that you don't happen to know these people doesn't mean they don't exist.

There are more important things to be putting in advertisements than restrictions. !

Not advertising the restriction, advertising that aircons are being used.

Daytrippers included? You might be, cranks might be, but daytrippers aren't fussed as long as it gets them there, and in comfort. The exception perhaps, is steam, but that's a completely different argument. !

Exactly: "aren't fussed". Get some decent PVs and everyone's happy. And why is steam 'a completely different argument'? You can't laughably claim to be 'the voice of reason' while making banal, unsubtantiated statements like this. Please explain what you mean without demonstrating that 'the voice of reason' simply means 'my opinion should be good enough for everyone'.

Here's the crux of it. You have a Class 20 tour on offer, something which doesn't come about on a regular basis, so either take what's on offer or leave it.

Beggars can't be choosers!

I'll leave it thanks. If I can't hear it, what's the point?

All anyone wants is honesty so they can make up their own mind, yet you seem to be passionately opposed to this. Why?

 

[Techniquest]

No, it will continue around the Oldam Loop so no need for a run round.

Hmm, interesting that. As I was typing this post, I found a curve that I've not ever seen before which would allow such a route, suffice to say this bit alone is track I really want to do!

There is of course also those banks on the Oldham Loop that would be interesting to go on with a 20! Plus the soon to never happen again opportunity to cover the loop on a loco-hauled train!

Rather keen on doing the Cumbrian Coast too with something proper!

Well it's got to be air cons due to clearence issues between Maryport - Carlisle.

Sounds like a good tour James!

Yep, well familiar about that already when I posted yesterday. I should hope that I didn't give the impression of complaining about air-cons, I'm perfectly happy with them. If I wasn't then I wouldn't be happy going bashing on my beloved traction!

Thanks by the way James for clarifying the stock, I didn't think MK3s were cleared around the line, but always better to be sure! Will be perfectly happy with the MK2s myself, but I hope my booking will be in coach A when I get it in (just got to wait to be paid yet, at least a month away).

Oh, and bloody good choice for traction!

Thanks too to Alex for posting the link, I didn't think James was organising another tour this year for some reason.

 

[4SRKT]

Hmm, interesting that. As I was typing this post, I found a curve that I've not ever seen before which would allow such a route, suffice to say this bit alone is track I really want to do!

Where is this curve? I can't picture it myself.

 

[theblackwatch]

Why SHOULDN'T they? It would cost nothing and satisfy everyone. You are very antagonistic towards the idea of honesty on this score, yet you seem to think that aircons are miles better. Why not encourage operators to sing the praises of their chosen stock?

It has probably escaped your notice that Rail Blue/Cargo-D are on the lookout for a Mk 2 PV coach (see their website). I doubt it will be free so your idea it would cost nothing is a bit wide of the mark. I would expect such a coach to cost a few thousand to buy, and the same to bring up to scratch and get main line certified. This cost would obviously have to be passed on to the hirer, and ultimately the passenger. I would assume you'd be happy to pay, say, an extra £10 on top of the normal fare to travel in this vehicle to pay towards the costs?

 

[4SRKT]

It has probably escaped your notice that Rail Blue/Cargo-D are on the lookout for a Mk 2 PV coach (see their website). I doubt it will be free so your idea it would cost nothing is a bit wide of the mark. I would expect such a coach to cost a few thousand to buy, and the same to bring up to scratch and get main line certified. This cost would obviously have to be passed on to the hirer, and ultimately the passenger. I would assume you'd be happy to pay, say, an extra £10 on top of the normal fare to travel in this vehicle to pay towards the costs?

The 'it would cost nothing' referred (quite obviously) to the cost of saying on the internet whether a tour was going to be aircons or not. Is there some sort of law that says that everyone on this site either has to be a moron, or insistent (like Alex) that everyone should simply think like them?

Oh, and yes, I would be prepared to pay more to travel in stock appropriate for railtours. I wouldn't OTOH pay £10 less to ride in aircons.

 

[theblackwatch]

By that i assume that you wouldnt be prepared to pay extra, and the broken record player is a permanent fixture in your house that will never be replaced?

 

[4SRKT]

By that i assume that you wouldnt be prepared to pay extra, and the broken record player is a permanent fixture in your house that will never be replaced?

Actually I would be prepared to pay extra (too difficult was it for you to read properly? Aw, bless), but you've missed the point AGAIN.The only thing people like me and 87015 want is to be told on operators' websites what stock will be used, so we can make up our own minds. For some reason you and Alex seem to think we have no right to know this. I really can't understand why.

On second thoughts, I think I understand only too well.................

 

[theblackwatch]

Sorry, i managed to miss your last paragraph, the perils of reading on a two inch screen on a phone! My apologies.

 

[Mintona]

What are aircons?

 

[alex57601]

Nobody would accept an operator not advertising the traction, so why not the stock which is after all as much a part of the train?

Obviously the likes of Green Express Railtours suffer very badly because they don't advertise the booked traction.

Why should this be so? It wouldn't be impossible to get a few rakes up to scratch.

It isn't beyond the realms of possibility, no. But to do this it costs money, and if a rolling stock supplier is to completely refurbish a rake of Mk1/Mk2 PVs they will have to recover the cost one way or another, so the way to do it is to increase the hire charge and push up ticket prices.

Whilst you may be prepared to pay the extra to have a refurbished PV rake, there are many others who won't be, especially in the current economic climate. And even if suitably refurbished, the crux of it is that you will be paying extra for a rake of PVs which, in case it hasn't dawned, older stock. And that won't go down well with some passengers.

Plenty of complaints on here, and with people I speak to. But then these are presumable the sort of people unworthy of opinions in your view, i.e. people who like thrash and a few drinks. The fact that you don't happen to know these people doesn't mean they don't exist.

So you're now saying that because people complain on here and to you it's a big issue? Surely if it is such a big issue then it should be referred to Retro Railtours directly rather than an public internet forum, even though James posts on here. If things are done on a formal basis then you are more likely to get an appropriate response.

And the other bits you mention are to the contrary. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and I know basher's myself who all have different ideas of a day out, but it winds me up how some people talk as though they can do a better job, and often unappreciative of the efforts that some people go to to organise these trips. I can't make you do tour X if you don't want to, but there's no need to be throwing your toys out of the pram if you don't like what's on offer and then trying to dictate how things should be done.

Get some decent PVs and everyone's happy.

Not necessarily.

I can think of one major complaint with PV stock; draughts. Especially in the winter.

I'll leave it thanks.

That's perfectly fine. Nobody's making you do it.

If I can't hear it, what's the point?

Quit being so self-centred. If it bothers you that much, run your own tour with stock that enables you to hear the engines and stop moaning. You probably wouldn't know where to start.

All anyone wants is honesty so they can make up their own mind, yet you seem to be passionately opposed to this. Why?

I'm not opposed to it at all. It's YOU that's opposed to something that comes along because you think it's stupid using air-cons.

At the end of the day, this tour is traversing the Maryport-Carlisle section which Network Rail will only allow providing air-conditioned stock is used, as is the case for anyone else who wishes to run that way. End of story.

 

[87015]

And as for this "core who don't like this", if it really was a large core promoters would know about this by now. I know of no complaints about the use of Mk3s on the last tour.

Wasn't aware you'd done a customer survey, didn't see you in the front coach all day, certainly didn't ask me. Would have been nice to be introduced

I've no problems with aircons if its advertised - then its a choice to make - you expect coffins with Compass but most were expecting WCRC to operate the grid tour, we are obviously not all as informed as you are.

Ps, you still haven't said how WCRC were able to operate PV stock along the coast last year. I was sitting in it. Also, why we are not allowed to express opinions because "but it winds me up how some people talk as though they can do a better job, and often unappreciative of the efforts that some people go to to organise these trips." yet I haven't seen 57601Railtour Ltd operating a train yet any more than 87015Railtours. So how are you any better saying you prefer aircons and not listening to other arguments?

The only thing people like me and 87015 want is to be told on operators' websites what stock will be used, so we can make up our own minds.

Correct. Even the TOC so we can take educated guesses.

 

[4SRKT]

The crucial point here is that the ONLY thing I am asking is that operators state whether they will use aircons or not. As long as it's advertised, I don't care if they do, because that will make it much easier to avoid, and much easier not to get involved in discussions with cretins like 'the voice of reason' (ha!) Alex who seems utterly incapable of understanding that a simple thing like informing on websites what stock will be used . will cause no hassle and be free.

Who are these thickos who can't understand this? Again I say, if aircons are so great, why not shout from the rooftops about it? A quick scan of the internet for people who style themselves as 'the voice of reason' reveals a load of nutters ranging from self-important little Hitlers to full blown fascists who believe their views should apply to everyone.

 

[yorkie]

Nothing wrong with a good debate but I had to remove one comment as it could be seen as a personal attack and was going a bit OTT.

As for advertising the stock, I have asked James to confirm if we can do this, and if he confirms I will update the website with the info tomorrow. Retro Railtours are open to suggestions like this, please do keep the suggestions coming.

 

[Mintona]

What are aircons?