Retail staff

[RJ]

So, I decided to take a friend down to the seaside today. Having planned to spend the morning in Central London before heading down, I had ToD tickets saved for a cheap day return from Camden Road* to Brighton.

Given the crappy weather in London, we abandonned that and headed straight to the seaside (where it wasn't so bad!) Anyway, we went up to the counter and I provided the clerk with a very specific request - one off peak day return from London Blackfriars to Brighton with a Gold Card discount please. There was no scope for error given that the only route was Any Permitted, so alarm bells started ringing when I was offered the option of FCC or Southern only. I then politely emphasised that I wished Blackfriars to be the origin, as I was returning there later. Again, the guy tried to force me to choose a TOC. I told him that I wanted an Any Permitted ticket - he refused, saying that I must buy the FCC Only ticket, because if I was coming from BFR, I would have been on a FCC train. Eventually he came up with some sort of ticket costing £15.20. I refused this as I wanted a ticket for £9.90. He then snapped at me, claiming that what I was asking for didn't exist. He asked a supervisor for help, who listened to me and found the ticket I wanted instantly, for which I was thankful. Meanwhile my friend found it amusing that I appeared to be talking to a brick wall.

I felt that this was terrible service - I asked for something very specific and put emphasis on the *only* bit where the clerk could have got wrong, the origin. Yet still, he continued to get it wrong then told me rather impolitely that what I was asking for didn't exist. I don't think I was being conned - more like a case of somebody with very poor communication skills unable to fulfill a simple request. I don't even know what he tried to sell me, I don't think £9.90 is the railcard rate of £15.20 - though he was inspecting my Gold Record card like it was something never seen before.

I had another problem with a SWT guard. I was using my Staff Travelcard to cover every single line on the LSE map that it was valid on. I ended up in Southampton Central at 20:45. I then wanted a Priv single to Boundary Zone 2, but the ticket office was shut. The barriers were closed but the assistant had no Avantix and said I could buy on the (20:55) train. As soon as that arrived, I found the guard and asked to buy a priv ticket. He refused and pointed me to the ticket office. I pointed out for the second time that it was shut, so he then told me that TVMs were available. I asked him how exactly I was supposed to buy a Priv ticket to Boundary Zone 2 from a TVM. He then asked how I was paying. I knew why he asked this and made a point of saying "Visa Debit." This proved futile as I then got a rundown on how Electron cards don't work with his machine and that if my card didn't work, I'd be detrained at the next stop (Eastleigh, where the ticket office was shut.) So basically the full "fare evader assumed" treatment despite that being as far removed from the truth as possible.

All this took place before I set foot on the train. Once aboard, I told the guard I was going to Paddington via Basingstoke/Reading and asked for a Priv single to Boundary Zone 2. I was sold a single to Clapham Junction. I had no way of knowing because the price of the two are the same. The guard was clearly upset at having to non-issue the ticket I didn't ask him for, as he was only going as far as Eastleigh. He then made a negative comment about railway staff often causing problems. Almost a week later, no sign of a refund. I should have taken a seat and waited for someone to find me. I don't think that the railway fraternity or at the very least, customer service principles were applied at all, don't get me started on the disregard of the Byelaws.

It does p*ss me off when I'm very specific with what I need and go to great lengths to explain, only for somebody to sell me what they want to sell me and not what I ask for. This is why I used to buy online where possible or buy from colleagues who I knew were intelligent and had good listening skills. Whereas before, I didn't mind either way, I think online purchase will be my preferred option if it's at all possible. I don't profess to be perfect, but I did everything in my power to help the customer - excesses (where dearer c.19 breaching extensions were requested), supplements, non paid ToDs and so on - anything vaguely unusual requested and it was to my enjoyment that I looked up how to do it. Above all, I never failed to listen and assumed a neutral degree of respect towards anyone on the other side of my window. I never, ever had customers standing up at my window arguing with me, because I liked to listen and to process complex transactions quickly. So if I can do that, why can't other clerks/guards follow a specific request?

*London - Brighton has an 'interesting' pricing structure - well worth exporing all the possibilities for the best deal.

 

[Mr Spock]

Obviously the SWT guard was not part of the brotherhood or else he would have let you travel for free.

 

[Nym]

Its systemic within all retail to be honest, appalling training.

It was the same whenever my managers trained my staff, they ended up being useless, whenever I trained them, they ended out fantastic. Just goes to show, condense training into 2 hours and it doesn't work, I took 6 hours to train someone in the basics, but then I shadowed them and continually tutored them for another week.

(PS: Shift Leader, W H Smith, Manchester Airport. Former...)

A lot could be done for better training, but tight margins, budget cuts, and apathy among all the staff. But this is clearly a lack of training and effort from the staff involved. Being rude to perfectly polite customers is just not necessary, and ruins the company's reputation.

Oh and as a foot note, has anyone received consistently good service? Ever?

 

[BestWestern]

You very much hit the nail on the head with your comment regarding overly condensed training. Generally, in my experience so far, railway retail training is shockingly poor. The ticketing structure we have to use is laughably complicated (often with no genuine justification for being so), and to develop a full and workable understanding takes proper, specific training and much time. Sadly, the training given is often far too generic, and woefully fails to meet the needs of different staff doing different jobs at different locations. The apparent assumption that people will pick it up 'on the job' is of little help when they are only at the beginning of that process.

As for your SWT Guard, I would be miffed indeed to find such a dismissive and unhelpful attitude being displayed towards a colleague, particularly as you had approached and spoken about your requirement at the first opportunity. SWT are usually very good in my experience, but sadly there will of course always be the exception

 

[YorkshireRider]

Being rude to perfectly polite customers is just not necessary, and ruins the company's reputation.

I was at south London station which i wont name run by FCC and never have i seen a more shocking example of this by a member of ticket office staff towards a guy who was asking perfectly reasonable questions in a polite manner, how he kept his cool ill never know. Not only does it look bad on the company but can give all retail staff a bad name on the railway which is unfair.

 

[RJ]

Obviously the SWT guard was not part of the brotherhood or else he would have let you travel for free.

What a stupid comment to make. Clearly, my gripe is being treated like a fare evader without just cause. Can you quote where I said I was trying to get a free ride?
Are you another one of these people who likes to display contempt towards anyone who is entitled to a preferential discount? I never did understand why staff or non-staff adopt this attitude.

 

[222007]

FCC do seem very slack when it comes to there retailing. I've withdrawn a number of tickets lately due to what im putting it dowen to as issuing errors by FCC (i know they manage the offices concerned) Seem's to be a problem for them.

 

[Mr Spock]

What a stupid comment to make. Clearly, my gripe is being treated like a fare evader without just cause. Can you quote where I said I was trying to get a free ride?
Are you another one of these people who likes to display contempt towards anyone who is entitled to a preferential discount? I never did understand why staff or non-staff adopt this attitude.

Can I suggest that you calm down a bit and read what I actually said and then you can tell me where I suggested that you asked for a free ride or that I objected to you getting discounted travel.

My posting was a tongue in cheek one relating to another thread that is currently running.

 

[Mark_re]

At Victoria: 'can I have a return to Cowes, etc...'. 'There's no such place.'

More shockingly, at Clapham Junction. 'Can I have a super offpeak return to Durham.' 'To where?' 'Durham.' 'Can you spell that?'

 

[TUC]

Full credit-and thanks-to the alert member of staff at the Ashford (Surrey) ticket office this morning.

My wife and I were travelling to Kingston. When working out the best fare, I had made the mistake of only applying a 33% (rather than the correct 50%) discount to the non-railcard disabled persons anytime day return fare and so thought it was cheaper for us to simply buy the super off-peak day return fare (for which the discount isn't available) rather than the anytime day return fare with the discount. When I asked for the super off-peak fare he straightaway said that it would be cheaper for us to get the anytime fare with the 50% discount.

Its really good to see someone so on the ball and helpful.

 

[Nym]

I see good staff like this quite a lot at MIA ticket office

 

[sheff1]

I have every sympathy with staff who are not properly trained, but no sympathy at all with those who are rude.

Nowadays I book virtually everything online, but when I bought from the station I often had to explain to staff how to find the ticket I wanted. Most were grateful (or pretended to be ) but a few were downright rude and insisted that the ticket didn't exist and/or they did not need to be told how to do their job - unfortunately they clearly did ! If I had been so rude to customers when working at a (very large) booking office in the early 70s I would not have expected to last there long.

 

[RJ]

Full credit-and thanks-to the alert member of staff at the Ashford (Surrey) ticket office this morning.

My wife and I were travelling to Kingston. When working out the best fare, I had made the mistake of only applying a 33% (rather than the correct 50%) discount to the non-railcard disabled persons anytime day return fare and so thought it was cheaper for us to simply buy the super off-peak day return fare (for which the discount isn't available) rather than the anytime day return fare with the discount. When I asked for the super off-peak fare he straightaway said that it would be cheaper for us to get the anytime fare with the 50% discount.

Its really good to see someone so on the ball and helpful.

Very good - I was never quite brave enough to make such a statement without checking first though. Sometimes the Off Peak fare alone is cheaper than the Anytime with the discount applied! I never did memorise what qualified for a 33/50% discount - I applied the discount first, then the machine blocked out the ticket types which didn't qualify.

 

[yorkie]

I have every sympathy with staff who are not properly trained, but no sympathy at all with those who are rude.

Nowadays I book virtually everything online, but when I bought from the station I often had to explain to staff how to find the ticket I wanted. Most were grateful (or pretended to be ) but a few were downright rude and insisted that the ticket didn't exist and/or they did not need to be told how to do their job - unfortunately they clearly did ! If I had been so rude to customers when working at a (very large) booking office in the early 70s I would not have expected to last there long.

Agreed. Sadly it's a major problem these days that you can't go to a ticket office and be confident that staff will be polite and unobstructive. I don't think there is any chance of raising the standard of ticket office staff to be consistently good, because ATOC are completely in denial that there's any sort of problem. If anyone carries out a survey that reveals that ticket offices are not always helpful or that ticket purchasing isn't simple, ATOC issue a press release that shows the contempt they feel toward anyone who doesn't think that everything is perfect.

As a customer of RJs on occasion I'd say he is very good. York station is also pretty good (apart from on one issue and that is bike reservations, where they used to be good but now insist on seeing reservations, which isn't exactly always possible when booking for a group or when you don't want the ticket unless a bike reservation is available but want an online discount/offer).

The London & the South East area TOCs can be very poor though.

 

[wintonian]

Well down here if you’re not going to London or popping to your local big town/ city for shopping/ work etc. then they can't understand why anyone would want a ticket and don't expect to sell any. :-x

 

[RJ]

Agreed. Sadly it's a major problem these days that you can't go to a ticket office and be confident that staff will be polite and unobstructive. I don't think there is any chance of raising the standard of ticket office staff to be consistently good, because ATOC are completely in denial that there's any sort of problem. If anyone carries out a survey that reveals that ticket offices are not always helpful or that ticket purchasing isn't simple, ATOC issue a press release that shows the contempt they feel toward anyone who doesn't think that everything is perfect.

As a customer of RJs on occasion I'd say he is very good. York station is also pretty good (apart from on one issue and that is bike reservations, where they used to be good but now insist on seeing reservations, which isn't exactly always possible when booking for a group or when you don't want the ticket unless a bike reservation is available but want an online discount/offer).

The London & the South East area TOCs can be very poor though.

Thank you for the compliment - much appreciate any feedback from customers. Think the only negative feedback I had was from people expecting me to print free tickets for them, endorse tickets for travel that were not valid (i.e FCC Only to travel on a Southern service :?) and people who did not like being Penalty Fared.

I'm the type of person who'd rather take responsibility and get to grips with an unfamiliar system, than dismiss it as complicated. I don't have a problem with reading up on restrictions or studying The Manual and I voluntarily produced a number of easy to read simplifiers for use at work. However, I think that the ticket system is so "complex", that it'd be impossible to achieve anywhere near an acceptable degree of parity where it comes to individual knowledge and application of procedures. I don't think that ATOC or anyone else could make that happen, despite the existence of The Manual and other universal resources.

What is simple, is selecting a ticket from A - B from a website like National Rail. If you choose to keep things simple, then they'll be simple.

Unfortunately, I think, for quite some time to come, that it'll be a case of pot luck finding a clerk who's willing to do everything and anything that's permissible by the rulebook - including doing unfamiliar things which require consultation of the rulebook. I did my very best to do this, but for a significant proportion of retail staff, it's just a day job and they can't find a reason to justify the extra effort required. Erring on the side of caution is a common train of thought, the idea being that "I'm not familiar with this and I don't know if it's allowed, so I won't do it" rather than consulting the rulebook.

That said, I'm sure there are many friendly clerks out there who are willing to try new things. Given that Boundary Zone extensions accounted for a significant number of sales on a daily basis, I'm surprised that clerks at places like Liverpool Street and Waterloo were not familiar with the process. However, with a gentle point in the right direction, most issued what I needed and even thanked me for showing them something new. Clearly not retail staff all are stubborn people with poor communication skills, but it's with an alarmingly high frequency that I come across those who are. Like I said, pot luck.

 

[AlexS]

Having had an argument with an ATW conductor who insisted my season ticket combined with a ticket from the station the season was to on to my destinations was not valid because the train didn't call at that station, I have every sympathy.

I'd watched him have the same argument with at least 3 other people in the carriage and it was ridiculous that the penny hadn't dropped that he might have an issue. He stated that it was Arriva Trains Wales policy and that he'd had a briefing on it that week, when I stated that it was in the CoC and requested that they be produced he stated that Arriva's policy supersedes them (!!), and then proceeded to give me the 'I'll let you off this time' bollocks that I was not amused with and told him so.

Having sent off a complaints letter I got a grovelling apology shortly afterwards and I hope he got a kicking for his attitude, as opposed to his lack of training which I could accept.

 

[headshot119]

Ive had two incidents at opposite ends of the spectrum on Saturday.

Early afternoon at New Street, my friend and I are both traveling on Heart of England 3 in 7 day rovers. He goes to the counter at New Street and asks for a Crewe - Liverpool Lime Street single with Disabled person railcard.

The clerk then says thats £12.80 (I think, £12 something) my friend goes I only want a single mate. Yes that's £12.80 please. So he points to the till display and says one CDS at £6.40 Total to pay £12.80. Booking office clerk goes yes Two singles. Turns out clerk has seen me with him and assumed my mate wanted two tickets. But didn't seem to comprehend the fact that he only wanted one. He was also quite rude.

Later on that day, we're on a Euston to Lime Street pendo, sitting next to the TMs office. My friend approaches the TM and asks if we stop at Crewe, she said we didn't. A couple of minutes later she came and said if you want to get to Crewe change at Stafford. My friend then explains he has a Heart of England 3 in 7 + a Crewe - Limestreet Single. She goes oh that's fine then stay on straight through. (I've always had trouble with rovers and this sort of thing)

Thanks Karl

 

[MichaelAMW]

A problem in life these days is that people live in their own little worlds and can't stand to be judged in any way, e.g. we now have 'road rage' if I should so much as dare criticise you for nearly killing me on my bike! The corollary is that people are very reluctant to be proved wrong. So, to a point, I am happy to accept that ticket-office staff are not always well trained, provided they will admit to it when a tricky request is made and be prepared to be questioned or disagreed with. Not so long ago I tried to change an advance ticket in the suburbs of Birmingham - just happened to have the time spare - and although it was a slight nuisance I was pleased that he simply said he's never been told how to do it and didn't know how.

Occasionally one gets the amusing opposite of someone who is so helpful that they refuse to give up trying to issue the ticket in spite of the fact they haven't a clue! Isle of Man recently was a fine example of this...

 

[penaltyfines]

I've got to the stage now where if they refuse to sell me what I want, I'll ask again while recording a video on my phone and use that as evidence I have attempted to purchase a ticket but no issuing facilities were available. Often they don't like being filmed and refuse to respond, but that's still good enough for me especially as I point out they are most likely recording me on their CCTV!

The last time I stuck around to 'educate' the seller I wasted 25 minutes and still got the "I'll do it just this once" sh*t... I appreciate its not their fault (until like you say they show an attitude problem) but its not fair the customer should be disadvantaged for that.

I'm more than happy to buy the correct, valid, ticket for my journey but TOCs must understand if they don't invest in training, whilst they will overcharge some customers, they are going to lose revenue with others!

 

[rjhglover]

The London & the South East area TOCs can be very poor though.

Got off at Southwark on Saturday to head to Waterloo East, firstly don't know why there are two sets of barriers there. Went through the first set fine, second set "Seek Assistance. Looked to the left no-one there, looked behind the woman at the first set of barriers was just pointing, until I looked again and this lad was there. Don't know why he couldn't have gone "Can I help you?".

 

[island]

Got off at Southwark on Saturday to head to Waterloo East, firstly don't know why there are two sets of barriers there. Went through the first set fine, second set "Seek Assistance. Looked to the left no-one there, looked behind the woman at the first set of barriers was just pointing, until I looked again and this lad was there. Don't know why he couldn't have gone "Can I help you?".

You go through the London Underground barriers to exit Southwark station and through Southeastern barriers to enter Waterloo East station.

 

[MikeWh]

You go through the London Underground barriers to exit Southwark station and through Southeastern barriers to enter Waterloo East station.

And you have 10 minutes to walk the 10-15m with an Oyster card and still be charged one journey fare rather than two.

 

[island]

They've pasted up notices on the Waterloo East side saying that if you arrived at WAE on a paper ticket then you need to use the paper ticket in the first set of barriers, not your Oyster card, otherwise you'll get a maximum journey charge.

 

[yorkie]

Later on that day, we're on a Euston to Lime Street pendo, sitting next to the TMs office. My friend approaches the TM and asks if we stop at Crewe, she said we didn't. A couple of minutes later she came and said if you want to get to Crewe change at Stafford. My friend then explains he has a Heart of England 3 in 7 + a Crewe - Limestreet Single. She goes oh that's fine then stay on straight through.

Good. The guard was knowledgeable and understands Condition 19. The train does NOT need to call at Crewe.

(I've always had trouble with rovers and this sort of thing)

Thanks Karl

If anyone refuses you travel in such circumstances, then feel free to let us know about it. I always suggest making a note of the guard/RPI/barrier persons name, but if you cannot do this and you experience a problem on the train, then identifying that train to Customer Services should enable them to work it out.

If you have a problem on Virgin in this situation, let me know and I will ensure that a very knowledgeable person handles the complaint.

I am also happy to proof-read any letters to ensure they are watertight, concise and will get a good response.

If asked to hand over money, decline to pay anything on the spot and obtain an Unpaid Fare Notice instead. This can be appealed and we will assist with this.

(Note: My advice above specifically relates to when you are told your ticket isn't valid under Condition 19. The advice may well apply to other circumstances too, but don't apply it to any other scenario without checking with me first).

You go through the London Underground barriers to exit Southwark station and through Southeastern barriers to enter Waterloo East station.

And in-between is a strange 'neutral zone'!

 

[Mojo]

Got off at Southwark on Saturday to head to Waterloo East, firstly don't know why there are two sets of barriers there. Went through the first set fine, second set "Seek Assistance. Looked to the left no-one there, looked behind the woman at the first set of barriers was just pointing, until I looked again and this lad was there. Don't know why he couldn't have gone "Can I help you?".

Because London Underground have their own barriers and the LU employee would have not been able to do anything with the Southeastern barriers, apart from set off the station fire alarm (which causes Southeastern barriers to open).

 

[barrykas]

Because London Underground have their own barriers and the LU employee would have not been able to do anything with the Southeastern barriers, apart from set off the station fire alarm (which causes Southeastern barriers to open).

The ironic thing about that being that both sets of barriers probably use the same key to release them! It's purely an issue of "ownership" rather than physically not being able to do anything.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[island]

Whenever I see the barriers being manually released by LU they use a key, and by SET they use a smartcard on the Oyster pad. But they are quite probably interchangeable.

 

[RJ]

Gateline Oyster cards are for one set of barriers only - red lights go off in the technician's office if any attempt is made to use one in the wrong place. I doubt that the two sets of barriers use the same key if they have different owners - I used a key which only worked barriers operated by the same TOC.

 

[Mojo]

The ironic thing about that being that both sets of barriers probably use the same key to release them! It's purely an issue of "ownership" rather than physically not being able to do anything.

Depends on the age of the gates. UTS (Underground Ticketing System) keys do not work in _most_ non-LU gates. I don't know specifically about Waterloo East/Southwark.