Restarting HS2a

[Peter Sarf]

The 'Y' design was a complete joke, serving only four cities directly. It near bypassed Liverpool, with trains when leaving HS2 at Crewe trundled at 110mph to Liverpool.

But you would not expect to build High Speed Crewe to Liverpool before building London to Birmingham would you ?.

 

[AlexSJW]

That’s all great but just for starters:

If you remove all West Midlands bound trains from the WCML you remove opportunities for intermediate journeys -eg Milton Keynes or Northampton. HS2 will enable more of these to run.

As I said in my previous post they spent £15 billion in the late noughties upgrading the WCML to 140mph but despite the billions spent failed to achieve this. If you think you can upgrade both the WCML and ECML cheaply to 140mph good luck.

140mph was precluded because incab signalling was omitted. As a huge chuck of the WCML was already upgraded the rest is easier.

 

[Noddy]

140mph was precluded because incab signalling was omitted. As a huge chuck of the WCML was already upgraded the rest is easier.

Or harder because a) all the low hanging fruit is done already and b) the WCML is now at capacity at 125mph top speed. Increasing it to 140mph reduces capacity in a mixed railway environment.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Or harder because a) all the low hanging fruit is done already and b) the WCML is now at capacity at 125mph top speed. Increasing it to 140mph reduces capacity in a mixed railway environment.

I agree, there is only so much that can be economically squeezed out of the West Coast Main Line and we have reached (arguably passed) that limit.

To add - that is why the fastest trains need to be taken off the West Coast Main Line and given their own dedicated route. Ideally with limited capacity killing intermediate stops.

 

[AlexSJW]

But you would not expect to build High Speed Crewe to Liverpool before building London to Birmingham would you ?.

Many were screaming start from the north. The Liverpool to Birmingham trains never even used any part of HS2 to Crewe is was that bad. Liverpool City Region is a similar conurbation to Manchester of which all was thrown at. Puzzling and a downright bad design.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Many were screaming start from the north. The Liverpool to Birmingham trains never even used any part of HS2 to Crewe is was that bad. Liverpool City Region is a similar conurbation to Manchester of which all was thrown at. Puzzling and a downright bad design.

No. The end with the biggest traffic generator first, that benefits the most travellers. It also covers the most congested part of the West Coast Mainline which is unsurprising because the Southern end of the West Coast Main Line caters for the most travellers from the biggest traffic generator.

 

[Noddy]

Liverpool City Region is a similar conurbation to Manchester of which all was thrown at. Puzzling and a downright bad design.

Greater Manchester has double the population of Liverpool City Region.

 

[AlexSJW]

Or harder because a) all the low hanging fruit is done already and b) the WCML is now at capacity at 125mph top speed. Increasing it to 140mph reduces capacity in a mixed railway environment.

Andrew Gilligan wrote...

''As No10 transport adviser, the author (Gilligan) repeatedly asked for evidence that the WCML would soon be full, but was never given any.''


''Much overcrowding on the North’s railways is caused by the practice of running extremely short trains. Of the 43 trains departing Leeds in the weekday peak hour between 5 and 6pm, almost half, 21, have only two or three carriages. Almost no train anywhere in the North, save those to and from London and a small minority of cross-country trains to Birmingham and Bristol, has more than six carriages. In the same 5-6pm hour, London’s busiest terminal, Waterloo, also has 43 departing trains. Of these, 37 have eight carriages or more and only one has less than four carriages. Indeed, few trains of any kind in south-east England are shorter than four carriages. All London’s Elizabeth line trains have nine carriages. Even before work on the North’s “Elizabeth line” started, significant improvements in capacity can be achieved on many routes within months, even weeks, by running longer trains using modern rolling stock currently sitting in storage, and by delaying the retirement of some older stock.''

''Platform lengthening would be needed on some routes, though almost all current platforms can accommodate at least four-car trains. In other cases, new trains would need to be ordered and power supplies upgraded – but this is still relatively cheap and quick. Again, it is surprising there has been so little focus on this, perhaps because everyone is spending their time thinking about heavy-engineering-based schemes instead. And if the West Coast Main Line between the North West, the Midlands and London is overloaded – though in years of asking, no-one ever provided evidence that it is.''

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Greater Manchester has double the population of Liverpool City Region.

 

[Noddy]

It does not.

Greater Manchester has a population of just over 3 million. Liverpool City Region is just over 1.5 million.

 

[AlexSJW]

Greater Manchester has a population of just over 3 million. Liverpool City Region is just over 1.5 million.

Manchester (City Proper): 554,400–589,670 (2024–2025 estimates).
Liverpool (City Proper): ~506,500–579,256 (2021–2025 estimates).

 

[Noddy]

Manchester (City Proper): 554,400–589,670 (2024–2025 estimates).
Liverpool (City Proper): ~506,500–579,256 (2021–2025 estimates).

Liverpool City Region is a similar conurbation to Manchester of which all was thrown at. Puzzling and a downright bad design.

The fact that Greater Manchester is twice the size of Liverpool City Region tells you why HS2 targeted that city.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Said those complaining about Crossrail. Where are they now?

Using it and calling it an extremely useful and valuable route...

 

[MatthewHutton]

I agree with @Krokodil here, trying to ascribe logic to what Sunak was doing is a fools errand. he (and many others) misinterpreted the outcome of one by-election, by blaming the result on one small factor (of many) that will have influenced voters, and incorrectly assuming the assumed views could be generalised to the country as a whole.

Why by election was that? And why did Labour come to the same conclusion?

 

[AlexSJW]

Using it and calling it an extremely useful and valuable route...tube train n

I use it because mainly as it has A/C and large carriages to the appalling tiny cut you head off doors of the Central Line Tube trains. It reverted back to the Central Line in winter as to get to the Lizzie Line platforms takes an eternity of walking, and they are a depressing purple colour.

There was two schemes one from south west to north east, and the current one that is built. DfT and TfL wanted the south west to north east line. When presented to Thatcher she said that goes though too many Labour held areas, so chose the least desirable scheme as it went through more Tory seats. No kidding.

 

[Trainbike46]

Why by election was that? And why did Labour come to the same conclusion?

It was Uxbridge

Regarding labour, there is only one minister or secretary of state who isn't evil, incompetent, or both; that person has no say on railway policy.

 

[AlexSJW]

It was Uxbridge

Regarding labour, there is only one minister or secretary of state who isn't evil, incompetent, or both; that person has no say on railway policy.

Do they eat babies as well?

 

[Trainman40083]

When you talk about capacity at the south end. A couple of weeks ago, there was an episode of The Chase. A question came up "which is the busiest mixed traffic railway (can't recall if it was Europe or the World). There were three choices. One was Crewe to London. The contestant got that right, which is more than Bradley or the chaser did. People who don't use, don't see the mix.

 

[Grimsby town]

Andrew Gilligan wrote...

''As No10 transport adviser, the author (Gilligan) repeatedly asked for evidence that the WCML would soon be full, but was never given any.''


''Much overcrowding on the North’s railways is caused by the practice of running extremely short trains. Of the 43 trains departing Leeds in the weekday peak hour between 5 and 6pm, almost half, 21, have only two or three carriages. Almost no train anywhere in the North, save those to and from London and a small minority of cross-country trains to Birmingham and Bristol, has more than six carriages. In the same 5-6pm hour, London’s busiest terminal, Waterloo, also has 43 departing trains. Of these, 37 have eight carriages or more and only one has less than four carriages. Indeed, few trains of any kind in south-east England are shorter than four carriages. All London’s Elizabeth line trains have nine carriages. Even before work on the North’s “Elizabeth line” started, significant improvements in capacity can be achieved on many routes within months, even weeks, by running longer trains using modern rolling stock currently sitting in storage, and by delaying the retirement of some older stock.''

''Platform lengthening would be needed on some routes, though almost all current platforms can accommodate at least four-car trains. In other cases, new trains would need to be ordered and power supplies upgraded – but this is still relatively cheap and quick. Again, it is surprising there has been so little focus on this, perhaps because everyone is spending their time thinking about heavy-engineering-based schemes instead. And if the West Coast Main Line between the North West, the Midlands and London is overloaded – though in years of asking, no-one ever provided evidence that it is.''

Andrew Gilligan is a journalist not a rail expert. If he has any expertise in transport, it's in active travel and not rail. I'd challenge that fact too though.

Take that quote. Significant increases in capacity can be delivered in months or week using modern rolling stock. What rollingstock? If there's any rolling stock available, it's EMUs. Most of Nothern's electric services are 4 or 6 car already. Even if rolling stock was available it would need to be made ready for service, check for route suitability, and drivers would need to be trained. That could quite easily take over a year.

It's amazing that somebody with less understanding than most people on this forum was allowed to advise on the cancellation of a major rail project.

 

[AlexSJW]

The fact that Greater Manchester is twice the size of Liverpool City Region tells you why HS2 targeted that city.

HS2 was going to the city of Manchester, not Oldham or Rochdale, amongst the poorest towns in the UK. Neither Bolton or Wigan who are separate entities in their own right. You have been listening to Andy Burnham too much, who keeps bigging up Manchester. Manchester is no Barcelona or Munich, it is a typically sized British city, no more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Andrew Gilligan is a journalist not a rail expert. If he has any expertise in transport, it's in active travel and not rail. I'd challenge that fact too though.

Take that quote. Significant increases in capacity can be delivered in months or week using modern rolling stock. What rollingstock? If there's any rolling stock available, it's EMUs. Most of Nothern's electric services are 4 or 6 car already. Even if rolling stock was available it would need to be made ready for service, check for route suitability, and drivers would need to be trained. That could quite easily take over a year.

It's amazing that somebody with less understanding than most people on this forum was allowed to advise on the cancellation of a major rail project.

Andrew Gilligan was a government adviser. You must have known that, as he was never out of the media's eyes. His document 'Instead of high-speed rail - Northern transport schemes that will work', was taken seriously by this government. It is online, read it. It is short enough.
What he said was correct. His solution for running off Handsacre never had a Stafford bypass whch I disagree with. He advocates a Lizzie line for NPR, which has merit.

 

[NCT]

AlexSJW is John Burns from Milton Keynes, who has been banned about a dozen times in one of the other forums.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

HS2 was going to the city of Manchester, not Oldham or Rochdale, amongst the poorest towns in the UK. Neither Bolton or Wigan who are separate entities in their own right. You have been listening to Andy Burnham too much, who keeps bigging up Manchester. Manchester is no Barcelona or Munich, it is a typically sized British city, no more.

The Golborne link sent it right to Wigan, and having the link to Manchester Piccadilly would leave pretty much everywhere else with a direct service to HS2 in some regard.

 

[Grimsby town]

Andrew Gilligan was a government adviser. You must have known that, as he was never out of the media's eyes. His document 'Instead of high-speed rail - Northern transport schemes that will work', was taken seriously by this government. It is online, read it. It is short enough.
What he said was correct. His solution for running off Handsacre never had a Stafford bypass whch I disagree with. He advocates a Lizzie line for NPR, which has merit.

Why was Andrew Gilligan a transport advisor though? Basically because he was mates with Boris Johnson. Before he became a cycling advisor to Johnson, he'd never worked in transport and had no academic transport qualifications. He has very little understanding of rail operations and I'd confidently say I am more qualified to advise a government on transport than he is, which is incredibly worrying.

I've read his reports. They can't be taken seriously because reports like that require the input of experts from many different fields and can't be accurately written by one egotistical person. Even ignoring the lack of expertise, the content is largely rubbish. Talk of running 60 trains per hour through a tunnel in Manchester is one line that shows how crazy it is. Gilligan isn't been taken seriously by anybody in the current government and he definitely shouldn't be.

 

[Noddy]

HS2 was going to the city of Manchester, not Oldham or Rochdale, amongst the poorest towns in the UK. Neither Bolton or Wigan who are separate entities in their own right. You have been listening to Andy Burnham too much, who keeps bigging up Manchester. Manchester is no Barcelona or Munich, it is a typically sized British city, no more.

Oldham, Rochdale, and Bolton (plus the likes of Huddersfield) would all be served by HS2 via direct links to Manchester. How many towns have direct links to Liverpool where going via Liverpool would be the quickest route?

Not to mention it also directly served Manchester Airport which is one of the busiest airports in the country, and the busiest outside of London.

 

[eldomtom2]

What rollingstock? If there's any rolling stock available, it's EMUs.

This is the full quote from Gilligan's 2025 report where he sets out what rolling stock he believes is available:

As mentioned before, more than 80 per cent of trains on the Manchester-Birmingham-Bristol services run by CrossCountry currently have only three or four standard-class carriages. Last year, around 18 of the same class of train – the class 221 Super Voyager, with a total of at least 72 carriages - were made surplus from Avanti West Coast by the new Evero fleet. A handful have been transferred to CrossCountry but most are currently in store and could be quickly transferred to lengthen these services. Five High Speed Trains taken out of service in 2023 (totalling 35 carriages) could also be reintroduced.
Some 24 class 769 trains (totalling 96 carriages) are currently in store and could be added to the Northern fleet. Eight of this class, which can run on both diesel and electric power, are already operating on Northern.
A further 27 class 222 diesel trains (currently used on the Midland Main Line, totalling around 150 carriages) and 37 class 350/2 electric trains (148 carriages) are, or are shortly to become, surplus as they are replaced by newer rolling stock. These trains are still only around 20 years old and have at least a decade of useful life in them. Around 25 older class 158 Super Sprinter trains, being replaced by new trains in Wales, could also be retained and used to strengthen services operated by the same class in Northern England.

 

[Krokodil]

The 'Y' design was a complete joke, serving only four cities directly.

Which is two more than your idea would have served. And yours wouldn't have had benefits for Preston, York and Scotland either.

It near bypassed Liverpool, with trains when leaving HS2 at Crewe trundled at 110mph to Liverpool.

Still reaching London 30 minutes quicker than at present. Are you trying to argue that HS2 should in fact be expanded to include Liverpool directly?

Almost no train anywhere in the North, save those to and from London and a small minority of cross-country trains to Birmingham and Bristol, has more than six carriages

The ones too and from London being the ones HS2 is designed to relieve. How does Gilligan think that running longer units on local trains around Leeds will free up capacity on the long distance routes?

Why by election was that?

Uxbridge, the seat vacated when Johnson resigned. Where the Conservatives held on to what had previously been a safe seat by the skin of their teeth. Sunak decided on the basis of this that HS2 should be cancelled and that ULEZs should be banned.

Not sure why one by election in a leafy part of Greater London was seen as a bellweather for the whole UK, but given that he lost Uxbridge the next year (along with everything else) it didn't do him any good.

And why did Labour come to the same conclusion?

You don't know if they did. They haven't committed to reinstating it (though it sounds like the DfT is still working on the basis that  something needs doing about capacity through Stafford, and that 2A is the inevitable solution) but you don't know if they would have cancelled it of their own volition.

HS2 was going to the city of Manchester, not Oldham or Rochdale, amongst the poorest towns in the UK. Neither Bolton or Wigan who are separate entities in their own right.

Where on earth are you going with this argument? If you want to mess around with technicalities then HS2 won't serve London either.

Andrew Gilligan was a government adviser

He was a political advisor. No requirement for a SpAd to have skills, qualifications or experience, it's a political appointment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Talk of running 60 trains per hour through a tunnel in Manchester is one line that shows how crazy it is.

He suggested what?! Good grief!

 

[AlexSJW]

Oldham, Rochdale, and Bolton (plus the likes of Huddersfield) would all be served by HS2 via direct links to Manchester. How many towns have direct links to Liverpool where going via Liverpool would be the quickest route?

Not to mention it also directly served Manchester Airport which is one of the busiest airports in the country, and the busiest outside of London.

Lime St at Liverpool is served directly by metro from St.Helens, Chester, Southport and all the towns on the Wirral. The Wirral has a larger population than Newcastle.

LHR >84.5 million (2025)
LGW ~45.5 million (pre-2024 data)
MAN ~27.9 million (pre-2024 data)
Birmingham's passengers will increase sharply once HS2 serves it.

Not in the same league. Stop listening to Burnham and his propaganda. He could be the next PM though.

 

[Noddy]

Lime St at Liverpool is served directly by metro from St.Helens, Chester, Southport and all the towns on the Wirral. The Wirral has a larger population than Newcastle.

LHR >84.5 million (2025)
LGW ~45.5 million (pre-2024 data)
MAN ~27.9 million (pre-2024 data)
Birmingham's passengers will increase sharply once HS2 serves it.

Not in the same league. Stop listening to Burnham and his propaganda. He could be the next PM though.

Liverpool Lime Street had 14.4 million entries/1.0 million interchanges in the latest figures.

Manchester Piccadilly had 27.4 million entries/2.1 million interchanges.

In these figures Manchester has broadly double the Liverpool figure, which is because its region has twice the population. Manchester is a vastly more important and useful destination than Liverpool.

 

[robspaceman]

I think it’s time to stop feeding the troll!

 

[stevieinselby]

Manchester (City Proper): 554,400–589,670 (2024–2025 estimates).
Liverpool (City Proper): ~506,500–579,256 (2021–2025 estimates).

Pick a story and stick with it.
First of all, you said "Liverpool City Region is a similar conurbation to Manchester", and when that was shown to be factually incorrect, you shapeshift and switch to talking about "city proper", which is (a) less relevant, and (2) not what you said to start with.
It's fair to assume that the rest of your argument is equally deceitful and duplicitous.

 

[AlexSJW]

Why was Andrew Gilligan a transport advisor though? Basically because he was mates with Boris Johnson. Before he became a cycling advisor to Johnson, he'd never worked in transport and had no academic transport qualifications. He has very little understanding of rail operations and I'd confidently say I am more qualified to advise a government on transport than he is, which is incredibly worrying.

I've read his reports. They can't be taken seriously because reports like that require the input of experts from many different fields and can't be accurately written by one egotistical person. Even ignoring the lack of expertise, the content is largely rubbish. Talk of running 60 trains per hour through a tunnel in Manchester is one line that shows how crazy it is. Gilligan isn't been taken seriously by anybody in the current government and he definitely shouldn't be.

Andrew Gilligan was a gvmt adviser. You seem to think he was not. His document had input from transport exerts. Read it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Pick a story and stick with it.
First of all, you said "Liverpool City Region is a similar conurbation to Manchester", and when that was shown to be factually incorrect, you shapeshift and switch to talking about "city proper", which is (a) less relevant, and (2) not what you said to start with.
It's fair to assume that the rest of your argument is equally deceitful and duplicitous.

Are you from Manchester?