Reserved (ish) seats

[Kite159]

I don't think there is anything wrong in principle with being able to reserve seats a short time before boarding - it allows people with, as stated, the most expensive walk-up tickets to have something that the holders of cheap* Advances get automatically.

Where this falls down is that there should be some proportion of seats left unreserved for people who don't have or understand the technology or turn up too late to use it. If these are all in a particular part of the train then this should be made clear by announcements or by notices in each coach.

It would be good also if XC had adopted less verbose messages for their seat reservations, which would fit on the displays without scrolling and would therefore be much easier to read. Something like "Available to Leeds" would do the job - though I'm not sure how many characters there are on the display. And I was pleased to see something in the IEP spec about each seat having a traffic-light-type display to show at a glance whether it was available or not.

*well OK, as this is XC, "less expensive"!

I'm trying to think which train I was on had something like that above the seats (might have been the EMT 222s) "Reserved from A to B and D to E", so if travelling between B and D it was available.

I like boarding HSTs at Reading heading towards Paddington to pick a 'reserved' seat which has nobody in.

 

[LateThanNever]

I'm trying to think which train I was on had something like that above the seats (might have been the EMT 222s) "Reserved from A to B and D to E", so if travelling between B and D it was available.

I like boarding HSTs at Reading heading towards Paddington to pick a 'reserved' seat which has nobody in.

Yea but XC don't run to London there is lots of passenger turnover throughout the journey and they run the longest routes in the UK yet you can pay full fare, sit in an "unreserved" seat only to find it is later reserved whilst you are travelling and sitting in it! It's just plain daft!

 

[Greenback]

It's a vile system that only makes this rather repulsive train operator less pleasant to travel with.

I agree. Before this ridiculous system was introduced I could tolerate XC. Now I prefer to avoid them completely, which, fortunately, isn't too difficult.

I would say once a train has started on its trip thats it for seats, if you havnt booked a seat by then its hard luck really.

Do you mean that ten minutes reservations shouldn't be allowed? If so, I agree!

So I boarded a train on which every seat said 'this seat may be reserved'. And it's my fault that someone wants that seat? Or should I simply stand until the displays show which seats are actually reserved and between which stations?

As a system it stinks for people that have not booked a seat or people who do not know how to book a seat.

It stinks. Few people realise there are electronic displays, whcih often don't work anyway. Even when they are working they are difficult to read, and, apparently, for many people to udnerstand.

According to a friend who had the misfortune to be on a Voyager a few weeks ago (my fault, I advised her to make sure she went via Newport but XC were diverted!) there was almost a fight when she tried to claim her seat. Some of the people sitting nearby tried to tell her to sit somewhere else, others joined in and defended her right to sit in the booekd seat!

It seems to be a system that causes nothing but trouble.

Personally I think it's time reservations were scrapped.

But as with all things on the railway's, riding a unicorn would be easier.

There is a need for reservations on longer journeys, but implementation needs to improve, but ther eis another thread currently running on that topic!

The electronic reservations is a ridiculous system. It constantly fails and many people don't notice them on either, expecting seat labels to be on the traditional method of sticking out of the top of seats.

I'm on a Bristol to Manchester journey next week and I have an awful feeling I won't get my seat as the sodding thing will be broken!

As with the Ten Minute Reservation system, I think it's a great idea and there have only been two occassions where no seat has been available, but when I've got on the train, the seat just says 'Available', so a waste of messaing charges really.

I don;t think it's a good idea at all, at least not within the current reservation set up where just about everyone who books online gets a reservation, many of which end up unused for one reason or another.

Add in an unreliable electronic system and it's hopeless.

Yea but XC don't run to London there is lots of passenger turnover throughout the journey and they run the longest routes in the UK yet you can pay full fare, sit in an "unreserved" seat only to find it is later reserved whilst you are travelling and sitting in it! It's just plain daft!

Yes, the whole system needs looking at, not just XC's useless efforts.

 

[IanD]

Yea but XC don't run to London there is lots of passenger turnover throughout the journey and they run the longest routes in the UK yet you can pay full fare, sit in an "unreserved" seat only to find it is later reserved whilst you are travelling and sitting in it! It's just plain daft!

They need sensors under the seat. If the seat's occupied, don't let it be reserved. Sorted.

Why even bother having seat reservations if it's going to be too difficult to see if a seat's been reserved or not?

They need to print the reservation detail on a card/piece of paper and attach to the seat. Full info available at a glance, no issues with scrolling. Sorted.

 

[6Gman]

I was on a Euston - Liverpool train the other day. The electronic displays had six seats across from me "available until Macclesfield".

Work that one out!

 

[LateThanNever]

They need sensors under the seat. If the seat's occupied, don't let it be reserved. Sorted.

That's tricky. When I put my briefcase on the passenger seat in my car if the briefcase doesn't get it's own seatbelt put on the car screams at me because the 'passenger' isn't wearing its seatbelt!

 

[Deerfold]

They need sensors under the seat. If the seat's occupied, don't let it be reserved. Sorted.

And they might be getting off at the next stop.

What I have noticed several times on XC is that the reservation details don't update until after the station rather than when the train stops at the station which can cause confusion.

 

[SamS]

And they might be getting off at the next stop.

What I have noticed several times on XC is that the reservation details don't update until after the station rather than when the train stops at the station which can cause confusion.

Just about every time I have been on (including the 0745 this morning) the reservations update at around the same time that the doors open.

Ten Minute Reservations aside, I don't see what the problem with the electronic displays are.
Apart from when they're not working of course, in which case the paper tickets they try and stick in the top of the seats are a pain, as it's more difficult to see what is available - it's even worse when the displays come back on and the paper tickets don't match up in anyway to the electronic reservations.

 

[Drsatan]

They need to print the reservation detail on a card/piece of paper and attach to the seat. Full info available at a glance, no issues with scrolling. Sorted.

That seems to becoming increasingly common on Voyagers. Unfortunately when reservation cards are used, they have a tendency to fall off since there are no slots to insert the reservation cards. A design flaw I think.

And they might be getting off at the next stop.

What I have noticed several times on XC is that the reservation details don't update until after the station rather than when the train stops at the station which can cause confusion.

This issue has also cropped up on the PIS displays located on the coach exterior - sometimes those don't update quickly enough (or at all).

 

[Minilad]

The trouble with paper tickets for reservations is the majority of passengers just see the ticket in the seat and carry on walking. They might be able to sit there as the seat is reserved for a different part of the journey but they won't know.
The XC system of 10 min reservations is a constant cause of grief for TMs.
The thing that really bugs me about reservations is the fact the people paying the cheapest fares (advances) get a seat while the people paying walk up fares may have to stand. Crazy

 

[PermitToTravel]

The thing that really bugs me about reservations is the fact the people paying the cheapest fares (advances) get a seat while the people paying walk up fares may have to stand. Crazy

It doesn't have to be like that. ATW only do "counted place" reservations with advances, which tie you to a train but don't include a seat (they say "Coach **, Seat ***"). Passengers on walk-up tickets can still book reservations as normal

 

[Goatboy]

There is nothing wrong with the principle that "this seat may be reserved". I don't understand what is confusing about this message. Sit in the seat and you might get turfed out. Seats which will never be available for reservation either don't have an electronic display on them, or state "available".

Great in a utopia, not so great on the sort of 4 coach Voyager (Well, 2.5 coach after we discount the cabs, First Class, etc) XC consider acceptable to operate on a service from Aberdeen to Penzance.

You either sit in the 'May be Reserved' seat or you don't get a seat.

 

[1e10]

I don't see the problem with ten minutes reservations providing the screens actually work.

The screens are awful though. A few months ago travelling between Bristol Temple Meads and Manchester Piccadilly I sat in a 'Available' seat. A passenger got on at Bristol Parkway with ticket and a reservation card for that seat that had been printed days ago.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't see the problem with ten minutes reservations providing the screens actually work.

The screens are awful though. A few months ago travelling between Bristol Temple Meads and Manchester Piccadilly I sat in a 'Available' seat. A passenger got on at Bristol Parkway with ticket and a reservation card for that seat that had been printed days ago.

Because you shouldn't be able to bugsy a seat after someone else is sitting in it. Imagine having to do so face-to-face with the person already in the seat, rather than from behind a telephone screen.

 

[Chapeltom]

Quite - happened to me twice on an Exeter Edinburgh trip. In both instances the seat was originally unreserved. At the time hadn't a clue what was going on. Didn't have much luggage so wasn't too put out but if I'd been travelling with someone and /or with more baggage then it would have been a complete pain, rather than an annoying inconvenience. So for XC, not only is the catering offer abysmal and the journey slow, but you have to play regular and compulsory musical chairs on the journey - and all this on a full price walkup open ticket which wasn't cheap, to put it mildly. At the very least a warning is needed on what happens if you don't reserve a seat. I now try and avoid XC if it's possible.
Basically it's a bonkers system!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No your seat can be reserved en route - even tho' you're sitting in it!

I was actually posting a response to a question made by Yorkie about a post by Dysonsphere. Unfortunately posting via mobile means not the post by dysonsphere didn't quote through. I perfectly understand how XC and may be reserved seats work.

 

[Jonny]

As far as I'm concerned, XC has been going constantly downhill since Arriva took over. It is no surprise that they didn't put their brand on it. It's only when you see what Arriva have done since taking over XC that I realise how good Virgin were.

According to the XC website, they still are Arriva 'owned'...

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/about-us/arriva
... CrossCountry is part of the Arriva group...

All of that is without having a go at the voyagers

 

[IanD]

That's tricky. When I put my briefcase on the passenger seat in my car if the briefcase doesn't get it's own seatbelt put on the car screams at me because the 'passenger' isn't wearing its seatbelt!

The sensor is too sensitive. But that's a safety issue in a car, you may have put a baby in the seat so need warning. Also, untethered briefcases can be lethal, acting like a missile in the event of an accident so you shouldn't put it on the passenger seat.

Bags and babies are not entitled to a seat on the train (yes, I know, nor is anyone else - your ticket just entitles you to travel between A and B blah, blah) so if the sensitivity was set higher this wouldn't be a problem. Rucksacks and suitcases might be a different matter though so the sensor should also test for body heat and movement, maybe include a heart rate monitor. It's still at the concept stage so obviously needs a bit of tweaking.

And they might be getting off at the next stop.

What I have noticed several times on XC is that the reservation details don't update until after the station rather than when the train stops at the station which can cause confusion.

My paper/card idea would resolve both of these.

If we must have electronic displays they should change halfway between the last scheduled stop before and the one to which the seat is reserved.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Because you shouldn't be able to bugsy a seat after someone else is sitting in it. Imagine having to do so face-to-face with the person already in the seat, rather than from behind a telephone screen.

This post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

A 10-minute reservation is no different to any other type of reservation. It is for the use of the reservation holder, and not somebody who got on the train without the foresight to reserve a seat. The display screens make it clear that the seat may be reserved, but people are too thick to understand the screen. They take it to mean it is reserved for the whole journey, and sit in it because it's clearly not been taken by the reservation holder. And then they whinge and moan when you have to get them to move.

It's no different to someone who plonks themselves down in a York to London seat at Newcastle, hoping that the ticket holder won't get on at York.

Arriva can't legislate for stupidity.

Great in a utopia, not so great on the sort of 4 coach Voyager (Well, 2.5 coach after we discount the cabs, First Class, etc) XC consider acceptable to operate on a service from Aberdeen to Penzance.

You either sit in the 'May be Reserved' seat or you don't get a seat.

But that is a risk you take when you choose to board an XC service without a seat reservation. Sometimes you'll get away with it and sometimes you won't.

And I completely agree with you about how inadequate the Voyager trains are, but for most of that you can blame Virgin and their ridiculous Operation Princess. Virgin also, conveniently, managed to keep most of the 221s for their franchise, leaving XC with the smaller trains. XC should be fined for leaving their HSTs parked in a siding, though.

I prefer the electronic displays because they cannot be removed. I've lost count of the number of times I've boarded northbound TPE services at Leeds to find that my seat has no ticket, and that the person in it won't move as a result. Plenty of other seats have tickets, so I can only assume that either a) TPE are forgetful at putting them all out or b) the scrote in the tracksuit stole the reservation.

 

[Greenback]

Maybe the answer is to move to a 'reservations compulsory' system for long distance trains. Then those who did not have the foresight to reserve a seat will be denied boarding, so no one will have to stand, no one will need to remove reservation labels and those who use the train for short hops and are unable to reserve a seat at all will be forced to use other services, which will result in a greater level of comfort for the long distance passenger.

(Note: I don't agree with this myself, but it's not too far away from Arctic Troll's view that if you don't reserve a seat you have to take a chance. And the French seem to like it!)

 

[noddingdonkey]

Here's a radical idea - why not run trains with sufficient seats to accommodate the number of passengers?

Oh sorry, I forget we live in some kind of third world country...

 

[LowLevel]

Defending a stupid system on the grounds that the public (who are known for their lack of savvy on the railway) shouldn't be stupid enough not to take account of it is ridiculous.

Once again, if you take a 4 car long distance train, let a large chunk of it be reserved in advance, and then another chunk be available to be reserved at short notices, there's not much if anything left for anyone else particularly if you're for example a first time traveller who doesn't know about the system.

It is a distinctly unfriendly move to a fair chunk of their customer base from Cross Country as they simply don't have the capacity to make it work. If it was one coach of an 8 car train that didn't have any 'normal' reservations in it that would be fair enough as you have plenty of alternatives unless it's mega busy. To do it on a pathetic little train like a Voyager is ridiculous.

As a guard I'd simply be hoping for the system to pack up all the time so I could announce it was broken and not have to deal with the fights. They're bad enough as it is.

You have similar problems on EMT Liverpool services where the whole of coaches A and B are available for reservation - these are fairly regular for being shortformed and therefore the whole train can be reserved without considering any of the significant number of walk up passengers that appear.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Maybe the answer is to move to a 'reservations compulsory' system for long distance trains. Then those who did not have the foresight to reserve a seat will be denied boarding

On the very busiest trains out of London, this happens already. I've seen East Coast do it on Sunday afternoons, especially when there's been engineering work. Virgin mark many of their Friday evening departures from Euston with a footnote saying you may not be permitted to board without a reservation.

Defending a stupid system on the grounds that the public (who are known for their lack of savvy on the railway) shouldn't be stupid enough not to take account of it is ridiculous.

Once again, if you take a 4 car long distance train, let a large chunk of it be reserved in advance, and then another chunk be available to be reserved at short notices, there's not much if anything left for anyone else particularly if you're for example a first time traveller who doesn't know about the system.

The TMR system is no different to any other reservation, I don't see why it is a "stupid system". If you sit in a reserved seat you'll get turfed out. The fact it "may" be reserved doesn't change anything, it's no different to sitting in a seat that is reserved later hoping that the passenger doesn't board.

Trains should be forced to have a certain percentage of seats that are "unreservable", that I'd completely agree with. XC do have some "unreservable" seats- coach B (on the 221s) is not reservable, and there are 8 seats in coach D and 4 seats in coach C that are unreservable too. But there clearly aren't enough seats that are unreservable. Well, there are clearly not enough seats full stop.

The fact that XC are not seriously penalised for keeping their HSTs parked in Neville Hill shed is the real problem.

 

[Qwerty133]

You have similar problems on EMT Liverpool services where the whole of coaches A and B are available for reservation - these are fairly regular for being shortformed and therefore the whole train can be reserved without considering any of the significant number of walk up passengers that appear.

Which is stupid, all trains should have a publicised unreserved area and where possible it be the same area on all services, unlike EMT, where a 7 coach is coach D, a 4/5 coach is coach C and I have no idea what coach it is in a 8 coach.
Nearly as stupid as allowing reservations on 5 car services in coach B and the first class section of coach D, as when the fairly regular short form to 4 coaches occurs coach B is missing and a lot of the first class seat numbers of D are in standard class on a 4 coach.

 

[Greenback]

Here's a radical idea - why not run trains with sufficient seats to accommodate the number of passengers?

Oh sorry, I forget we live in some kind of third world country...

Indeed. That would be the best solution. Along with having proper local services so that these trains did not have to act as local trains on certain sections

Defending a stupid system on the grounds that the public (who are known for their lack of savvy on the railway) shouldn't be stupid enough not to take account of it is ridiculous.

I do have sympathy with this observation.

Once again, if you take a 4 car long distance train, let a large chunk of it be reserved in advance, and then another chunk be available to be reserved at short notices, there's not much if anything left for anyone else particularly if you're for example a first time traveller who doesn't know about the system.

Or if you don't know you need to travel in advance, or any number of reasons why you can't choose to reserve a seat.

It is a distinctly unfriendly move to a fair chunk of their customer base from Cross Country as they simply don't have the capacity to make it work. If it was one coach of an 8 car train that didn't have any 'normal' reservations in it that would be fair enough as you have plenty of alternatives unless it's mega busy. To do it on a pathetic little train like a Voyager is ridiculous.

I agree. the trains are simply too short to implement things like ten minute reservations.

As a guard I'd simply be hoping for the system to pack up all the time so I could announce it was broken and not have to deal with the fights. They're bad enough as it is.

The disagreements arising from ten minute reservations plus the unreliability of the reservation system in the first place are a huge disincentive to use XC for me.

You have similar problems on EMT Liverpool services where the whole of coaches A and B are available for reservation - these are fairly regular for being shortformed and therefore the whole train can be reserved without considering any of the significant number of walk up passengers that appear.

I can usually get a seat even when there is a forest of reservation labels. You just need to find a seat that is not reserved for the part of the journey you are making on that train. Or hop into one that is reserved but unoccupied.

But that isn't really the point here. XC have a series of issues that need addressing. Not least of which is ten minute reservations. I understand the appeal of this feature, but it is simply not practical with the trains XC have, and the poor system that displays reservations on board does not help.

 

[Qwerty133]

The TMR system is no different to any other reservation, I don't see why it is a "stupid system". If you sit in a reserved seat you'll get turfed out. The fact it "may" be reserved doesn't change anything, it's no different to sitting in a seat that is reserved later hoping that the passenger doesn't board.

Trains should be forced to have a certain percentage of seats that are "unreservable", that I'd completely agree with. XC do have some "unreservable" seats- coach B (on the 221s) is not reservable, and there are 8 seats in coach D and 4 seats in coach C that are unreservable too. But there clearly aren't enough seats that are unreservable. Well, there are clearly not enough seats full stop.

Have I missed the post where you said you were rail staff, LowLevel is a guard, so he probably has much more experience in dealing with reservations, than you or I who are passengers and when it doesn't directly effect us goes unnoticed.

 

[Greenback]

On the very busiest trains out of London, this happens already. I've seen East Coast do it on Sunday afternoons, especially when there's been engineering work. Virgin mark many of their Friday evening departures from Euston with a footnote saying you may not be permitted to board without a reservation.

But I am proposing a blanket ban, on all XC trains, not just the busiest sections of line with restricted access at one or two large stations.

At least everyone will know where they stand, as they do with TGV's and the former Teos services in France.

The TMR system is no different to any other reservation, I don't see why it is a "stupid system". If you sit in a reserved seat you'll get turfed out. The fact it "may" be reserved doesn't change anything, it's no different to sitting in a seat that is reserved later hoping that the passenger doesn't board.

The main difference is that it's a lottery - you may be turfed out, you may not. At least with paper reservations and no ten minute reservations you know whcih seats are reserved and which aren't, so there's no maybe involved.

Trains should be forced to have a certain percentage of seats that are "unreservable", that I'd completely agree with. XC do have some "unreservable" seats- coach B (on the 221s) is not reservable, and there are 8 seats in coach D and 4 seats in coach C that are unreservable too. But there clearly aren't enough seats that are unreservable. Well, there are clearly not enough seats full stop.

We can agree on that!

The fact that XC are not seriously penalised for keeping their HSTs parked in Neville Hill shed is the real problem.

Again, I am in full agreement.

 

[bramling]

This post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

A 10-minute reservation is no different to any other type of reservation. It is for the use of the reservation holder, and not somebody who got on the train without the foresight to reserve a seat. The display screens make it clear that the seat may be reserved, but people are too thick to understand the screen. They take it to mean it is reserved for the whole journey, and sit in it because it's clearly not been taken by the reservation holder. And then they whinge and moan when you have to get them to move.

It's no different to someone who plonks themselves down in a York to London seat at Newcastle, hoping that the ticket holder won't get on at York.

Arriva can't legislate for stupidity.



But that is a risk you take when you choose to board an XC service without a seat reservation. Sometimes you'll get away with it and sometimes you won't.

And I completely agree with you about how inadequate the Voyager trains are, but for most of that you can blame Virgin and their ridiculous Operation Princess. Virgin also, conveniently, managed to keep most of the 221s for their franchise, leaving XC with the smaller trains. XC should be fined for leaving their HSTs parked in a siding, though.

I prefer the electronic displays because they cannot be removed. I've lost count of the number of times I've boarded northbound TPE services at Leeds to find that my seat has no ticket, and that the person in it won't move as a result. Plenty of other seats have tickets, so I can only assume that either a) TPE are forgetful at putting them all out or b) the scrote in the tracksuit stole the reservation.

It's not a case of lack of foresight, in some cases people might not be able or willing to plan their itinerary round a particular service. Having already been penalised for this by the need to purchase a more expensive Anytime ticket, they they get penalised again by this rediculous system by not being able to settle in a seat without the risk of someone else reserving it. One should be able to board a train, find a seat and relax, not have to start faffing around with electronic devices trying to reserve a seat.

One of the benefits of the railway is that one doesn't have to be tied down to particular times. If on a day out, if the weather is nice one might want to spend longer in a given place and it should be a simple case of boarding a later train.

Fortunately I rarely if ever use Cross Country, however if I found myself on the receiving end of this stupidity, next time I would be using the car, where rubbish like this doesn't occur.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Having already been penalised for this by the need to purchase a more expensive Anytime ticket, they they get penalised again by this rediculous system by not being able to settle in a seat without the risk of someone else reserving it.

Cross Country brought in Ten Minute Reservations in response to Anytime ticket holders complaining that they couldn't get a seat. I think it was a sensible thing for them to do. Most people "faff with electronic devices" to buy their ticket in the first place these days, or to check train running information, and being able to make a reservation is just the next step. Beats having to queue at a ticket office, like in the old days.

Any ticket holder can get a Ten Minute Reservation if they have a mobile phone. They can do it from the next station the train calls at, even if they are already on board.

Have I missed the post where you said you were rail staff, LowLevel is a guard, so he probably has much more experience in dealing with reservations, than you or I who are passengers and when it doesn't directly effect us goes unnoticed.

Guards aren't the ones using the TMR system though, it is passengers.

Most of the arguments I've seen on XC are when the system fails entirely, when people who thought they had reservations are left standing for their journey.

I'd agree that the labels could be more simple: "reserved", "available (until...)" and "might be reserved later" are a bit more self-explanatory. But most of the arguments about TMR stem from people not reading the display properly, taking "may be reserved between x and y" to mean if the seat is empty after x it will stay empty. As I say, you can't legislate for stupidity.

 

[talltim]

If you made XC reservations only, you would cut my service by a fifth.

The wording is poor. 'This seat may be reserved' is ambiguous. Does it mean that it might be reserved or that you can reserve it?

 

[Qwerty133]

If you made XC reservations only, you would cut my service by a fifth.

The wording is poor. 'This seat may be reserved' is ambiguous. Does it mean that it might be reserved or that you can reserve it?

and mine completely, even more so as the trains on my route aren't reserveable, so they'd be running empty all day