Reserved (ish) seats

[LowLevel]

Cross Country brought in Ten Minute Reservations in response to Anytime ticket holders complaining that they couldn't get a seat. I think it was a sensible thing for them to do. Most people "faff with electronic devices" to buy their ticket in the first place these days, or to check train running information, and being able to make a reservation is just the next step. Beats having to queue at a ticket office, like in the old days.

Any ticket holder can get a Ten Minute Reservation if they have a mobile phone. They can do it from the next station the train calls at, even if they are already on board.



Guards aren't the ones using the TMR system though, it is passengers.

Most of the arguments I've seen on XC are when the system fails entirely, when people who thought they had reservations are left standing for their journey.

I'd agree that the labels could be more simple: "reserved", "available (until...)" and "might be reserved later" are a bit more self-explanatory. But most of the arguments about TMR stem from people not reading the display properly, taking "may be reserved between x and y" to mean if the seat is empty after x it will stay empty. As I say, you can't legislate for stupidity.

I would agree that my being a guard is irrelevant to the points you and I are making from the passenger perspective - I (perhaps luckily) don't work for XC anyway- I was mostly having a gripe about the arguments that result making life difficult for them in a different way.

My main issues with it are it's implementation. I can't think of a less suitable TOC to be using this kind of system with it's tiny trains and capacity issues - it's just asking for problems. Unreserved seats are all well and good but it's such a tiny number you could wander the whole train looking for them and find them all taken anyway. You could also take a seat, become aware of the system (how I'm not sure at this point in proceedings though), use it, and then find your new seat is in a different coach, so even if you 'play the game', you can get shafted by it. The unreserved seats are also evidently so few that you could be forgiven for thinking *every* seat shows the 'may be reserved' message (I have to admit I was thinking along those lines) so you chance it anyway.

I'd probably be inclined to play merry hell if I was tired, fed up, found myself a seat at last, perhaps having been told the 10 minutes reservations weren't available at the station I was searching from, then get turfed out by someone when they happened to become available.

 

[edwin_m]

A 10-minute reservation is no different to any other type of reservation. It is for the use of the reservation holder, and not somebody who got on the train without the foresight to reserve a seat. The display screens make it clear that the seat may be reserved, but people are too thick to understand the screen. They take it to mean it is reserved for the whole journey, and sit in it because it's clearly not been taken by the reservation holder. And then they whinge and moan when you have to get them to move.

The difference is that the person occupying the seat may have looked around for seats that are NOT reserved, only finding seats that MAY BE reserved. They are then more likely to be rightly annoyed if they consider they have done all they can and someone still wants them to move.

 

[Greenback]

Cross Country brought in Ten Minute Reservations in response to Anytime ticket holders complaining that they couldn't get a seat. I think it was a sensible thing for them to do. Most people "faff with electronic devices" to buy their ticket in the first place these days, or to check train running information, and being able to make a reservation is just the next step. Beats having to queue at a ticket office, like in the old days.

I don't agree that most people faff with electronic devices to buy a ticket and check the service these days.

No one I know on my regular commute does this, and none of my family or friends do either.

It may be true that most peope in a particular demographic rely on their mobile devices for such things, but I doubt it is true across the entire train using population.

Any ticket holder can get a Ten Minute Reservation if they have a mobile phone. They can do it from the next station the train calls at, even if they are already on board.

Of course, they have to have the phone, they must have power, credit, and they must have a signal.

As I said, I can see why such a service is apepaling, both as a marketing tool to attract new passengers and as a feature that savvy travellers can use to their advantage.

That doesn't overcome the fact that it simply does not work in practice.

My main issues with it are it's implementation. I can't think of a less suitable TOC to be using this kind of system with it's tiny trains and capacity issues - it's just asking for problems. Unreserved seats are all well and good but it's such a tiny number you could wander the whole train looking for them and find them all taken anyway. You could also take a seat, become aware of the system (how I'm not sure at this point in proceedings though), use it, and then find your new seat is in a different coach, so even if you 'play the game', you can get shafted by it. The unreserved seats are also evidently so few that you could be forgiven for thinking *every* seat shows the 'may be reserved' message (I have to admit I was thinking along those lines) so you chance it anyway.

Add in that the displays are so difficult to see and understand that most passengers seem quite happy to ignore them completely, and you have summed up the issues perfectly.

The difference is that the person occupying the seat may have looked around for seats that are NOT reserved, only finding seats that MAY BE reserved. They are then more likely to be rightly annoyed if they consider they have done all they can and someone still wants them to move.

There must be a strong temptation for someone sat in the seat, who probably cannot see the reservation display without standing up, to stay where they are, and invite the other person to call the police to resolve it. The temptation would be even stronger if the occupant has their belongings spread out and their luggage stowed away.

Another example of how a bright idea from someone in head office only serves to cause upset and argument in the real world, simply because the trains are not long enough leading to seats being in short supply.

XC should come to their senses and drop this until such time that they have the resources to allow it to work.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I have tried to use the TMR system 3 times. On all three occasions my reservation did not show on the electronic screens at all. You try moving someone sitting in the seat when your reservation isn't showing on the screen! I'd have less problems with the system if it actually worked.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The difference is that the person occupying the seat may have looked around for seats that are NOT reserved, only finding seats that MAY BE reserved.

I've been on EastCoast trains out of London (usually the 1819 on the Friday before a Bank Holiday) where every seat is reserved. People have tried their luck and had to move. It's the same principle.

If you're boarding trains which are busy, and you don't have a reservation, then you're taking your chances that you'll either have to stand or play musical chairs. TMR was brought in to try and help the situation, and rightly too IMHO. It gives passengers with Anytime tickets boarding at intermediate stations (Derby and Cheltenham spring to mind) a chance of getting a seat.

I actually think the lack of capacity makes the system more sensible on XC, because seats are at such a premium. The idea of making it a free-for-all because the trains are short is going to cause more arguments and more problems, and will be terrible PR for Arriva.

The unreliable electronic displays are the problem- the unreserved seats (especially the eight at the old shop end of coach D) are marked by the absence of an electronic displays. That I will agree is very confusing for many passengers.

I don't agree that most people faff with electronic devices to buy a ticket and check the service these days.

No one I know on my regular commute does this, and none of my family or friends do either.

It's hard to tell. On the trains I use, commuting from the Home Counties, people are using phones and iPads to work, or check train times, whilst they're travelling. You'd be surprised how many older people are tech-savvy.

 

[Greenback]

It's hard to tell. On the trains I use, commuting from the Home Counties, people are using phones and iPads to work, or check train times, whilst they're travelling. You'd be surprised how many older people are tech-savvy.

Perhaps we are a bit backward around here, but although people do have the devices, they tend to be used more for texting, using facebook and the like. Maybe it's to do with the intemrittent signals as well.

It's not so much age related. My father has an ipad, but he just would not use it to check for live service information or to reserve a seat. He has bought tickets online, though.

 

[bramling]

Cross Country brought in Ten Minute Reservations in response to Anytime ticket holders complaining that they couldn't get a seat. I think it was a sensible thing for them to do. Most people "faff with electronic devices" to buy their ticket in the first place these days, or to check train running information, and being able to make a reservation is just the next step. Beats having to queue at a ticket office, like in the old days.

Any ticket holder can get a Ten Minute Reservation if they have a mobile phone. They can do it from the next station the train calls at, even if they are already on board.



Guards aren't the ones using the TMR system though, it is passengers.

Most of the arguments I've seen on XC are when the system fails entirely, when people who thought they had reservations are left standing for their journey.

I'd agree that the labels could be more simple: "reserved", "available (until...)" and "might be reserved later" are a bit more self-explanatory. But most of the arguments about TMR stem from people not reading the display properly, taking "may be reserved between x and y" to mean if the seat is empty after x it will stay empty. As I say, you can't legislate for stupidity.

The more I read, the more I'm becoming convinced reservations should be abolished completely.

If the train was a free for all, those with the foresight to turn up on time would be rewarded with the choice of seats, which is as fair a system as any, and people would be able to choose a seat to their liking rather than being allocated one which might not suit (eg facing wrong way, lack of window, etc).

Whilst the short-notice reservations may appeal to those who get some kind of kick from reserving a seat at the last minute and then evicting someone else, most people want to make their journey without this hassle and unpleasantness.

If I go by car I don't have to worry about a reservation because I automatically get my preferred seat, no issues at all. Oh, and I also know I won't have to put up with screaming kids, people walking up and down the train every 10 seconds, smell from the toilets and having to sit next to someone, and most likely it will take me exactly where I want to go, and be quicker and cheaper. With this in mind perhaps this is why CrossCountry only requires short trains, as everyone who can has already made the choice to abandon, and XC is left with the rump for whom the mode is a distress purchase!

 

[Deerfold]

If the train was a free for all, those with the foresight to turn up on time would be rewarded with the choice of seats, and people would be able to choose a seat to their liking rather than being allocated one which might not suit (eg facing wrong way, lack of window, etc).

For a typical journey on a busy Kings Cross to Leeds (let's say on a Sunday when they're only hourly) that'd be fine if you were able bodied.
Less mobile (but not enough less to get assistance)? Tough.

And if you wanted to get on a Peterborough? Not a chance of a seat. No matter how early you turn up.

Most on-line booking systems let you give some preferences when you book which is why I usually end up with a table when I have a reservation. Station ticket offices should be able to specify a particular seat.

If I go by car I don't have to worry about a reservation because I automatically get my preferred seat, no issues at all. Oh, and I also know I won't have to put up with screaming kids, people walking up and down the train every 10 seconds, smell from the toilets and having to sit next to someone, and most likely it will take me exactly where I want to go, and be quicker and cheaper.

Whether your car is quicker and cheaper than by train will surely depend on the journey you're doing and the ticket you've got.

Certainly if I'm going to Leeds, even if I have to get a bus to the station a car journey cannot compete with the train journey time (even when I've ended up in a taxi after midnight due to a missed connection (with very little other traffic on the roads) the taxi is at least 10 minutes slower.

Between Leeds and London you'd not stand a chance of beating the train by car; between Leeds and Birmingham you might have a chance if there's not much congestion.

 

[bramling]

For a typical journey on a busy Kings Cross to Leeds (let's say on a Sunday when they're only hourly) that'd be fine if you were able bodied.
Less mobile (but not enough less to get assistance)? Tough.

And if you wanted to get on a Peterborough? Not a chance of a seat. No matter how early you turn up.

Most on-line booking systems let you give some preferences when you book which is why I usually end up with a table when I have a reservation. Station ticket offices should be able to specify a particular seat.

Which is the reality of many commuter services all around the country, I fail to see why long-distance services should be any different. If the train is over capacity, someone is going to be standing, so in the example above it might as well be the Pererborough joiners who will be on the train less than those travelling the full distance. If others alight at intermediate stops then seats become available for them so it all balances out.

Of course none of this would be an issue if the trains were long enough - there's no excuse for this sort of overcrowding at off-peak times, and if one goes by car none of these issues arise.

 

[Greenback]

Between the extremes of reservations being abolished on the one hand and being made compulsory on the other, what we have now doesn't seem quite so bad!

 

[Deerfold]

Which is the reality of many commuter services all around the country, I fail to see why long-distance services should be any different. If the train is over capacity, someone is going to be standing, so in the example above it might as well be the Pererborough joiners who will be on the train less than those travelling the full distance. If others alight at intermediate stops then seats become available for them so it all balances out.

Of course none of this would be an issue if the trains were long enough - there's no excuse for this sort of overcrowding at off-peak times, and if one goes by car none of these issues arise.

You're going to end up with anyone who can't physically stand for long periods of time not able to use trains. That would include my father-in-law, mother-in-law and grandmother-in-law. We've just booked Leeds - Edinburgh with my grandmother-in-law. If we hadn't been able to book seats between Leeds and York and York and Edinburgh we wouldn't have bothered. My wife and I travel to York fairly regularly and usually stand all the way if we haven't booked.

Ideally there would be enough seats for everyone but as there aren't I don't see not allowing anyone to book them helps.

These issues don't occur by car, there are other issues.

 

[westv]

Making it a free for all would mean the quickest people to the doors had the best seats not those that turned up first.
It seems to me the criticism of reservations is based on just one TOC.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It already feels like a free for all on XC Voyagers now!

 

[quarella]

The number of threads there are about archaic railway processes! Cross Country utilise the technology available and try to address some of the issues that exist regarding reservations such as season ticket holders making reservations on multiple trains and paper labels being thrown away by some passengers. I would have thought this is a long term development dating from the time Virgin held the Cross Country franchise they were the TOC who first moved the reservation deadline from 1400 to 1800 on the day before travel, or applicable day if advance purchase ticket, and if I recall correctly over ten years ago when I last worked in a booking office we were able to make Cross Country reservations up to 2 hours before the train departed it's station of origin. However that could be over ten hours previously.

 

[Deerfold]

The number of threads there are about archaic railway processes! Cross Country utilise the technology available and try to address some of the issues that exist regarding reservations such as season ticket holders making reservations on multiple trains and paper labels being thrown away by some passengers. I would have thought this is a long term development dating from the time Virgin held the Cross Country franchise they were the TOC who first moved the reservation deadline from 1400 to 1800 on the day before travel, or applicable day if advance purchase ticket, and if I recall correctly over ten years ago when I last worked in a booking office we were able to make Cross Country reservations up to 2 hours before the train departed it's station of origin. However that could be over ten hours previously.

What have XC done to reduce season ticket holders making multiple reservations?

I don't have a problem with screens showing reservations so long as they are understandable and they work (I've reserved a seat on an EC train before and the reservarion had been cleared away with the rest of reservations by the time I boarded at Doncaster presumably by a member of staff who assumed it would be for an earlier point in the journey so I realise paper notifications aren't perfect either - fortunately it was a quiet train but they're not always).

 

[starrymarkb]

Making it a free for all would mean the quickest people to the doors had the best seats not those that turned up first.
It seems to me the criticism of reservations is based on just one TOC.

Indeed, and even the Budget airlines are moving away from the Scrum for the best seats. Easyjet have had Allocated Seating for about a year now and even Ryanair are rolling it out!

 

[Greenback]

The number of threads there are about archaic railway processes! Cross Country utilise the technology available and try to address some of the issues that exist regarding reservations such as season ticket holders making reservations on multiple trains and paper labels being thrown away by some passengers.

I understand the intentions of the electronic displays, which are laudable, but the implementation is poor and not fit for purpose.

I would have thought this is a long term development dating from the time Virgin held the Cross Country franchise they were the TOC who first moved the reservation deadline from 1400 to 1800 on the day before travel, or applicable day if advance purchase ticket, and if I recall correctly over ten years ago when I last worked in a booking office we were able to make Cross Country reservations up to 2 hours before the train departed it's station of origin. However that could be over ten hours previously.

Times have certainly changed and brought in the technology that makes ten minute reservations. However, just because it's possible doesn't necessarily make it desirable.

While there are one or two people who will benefit, this is outweighed by the problems this policy causes in my view. If XC are serious about this, they would bring in compulsory reservations and have a system which would allow last minute reservations of any seats that had not been reserved for that journey.

But they won't do that, of course, because it will have a severe impact on their revenue.

What have XC done to reduce season ticket holders making multiple reservations?

I think the answer to that is nothing!

I don't have a problem with screens showing reservations so long as they are understandable and they work (I've reserved a seat on an EC train before and the reservarion had been cleared away with the rest of reservations by the time I boarded at Doncaster presumably by a member of staff who assumed it would be for an earlier point in the journey so I realise paper notifications aren't perfect either - fortunately it was a quiet train but they're not always).

Exactly. The XC screens are unreliable. I've even heard of someone getting on at Reading where all the displays were blank, then being turfed out of their seat at Banbury when they were working again and displaying that the seat was reserved from Banbury to Birmingham New St.

Even when they are working, they are difficult to read. I can't remember the exact details but the displays on the German ICE trains seemed to be simple to read and clear in their meaning. IIRC they show the next reservation for that seat, and if there is none the seat is shown as available. No scrolling, and a readable display in a convenient spot to be seen. Simple.

Indeed, and even the Budget airlines are moving away from the Scrum for the best seats. Easyjet have had Allocated Seating for about a year now and even Ryanair are rolling it out!

That's right. It can also apply to XC, but only if you have to check in for your journey and no standing is allowed!

No doubt some people would see this as a Very Good Thing!

 

[LateThanNever]

Between the extremes of reservations being abolished on the one hand and being made compulsory on the other, what we have now doesn't seem quite so bad!

You can't reserve a seat on South West trains and that doesn't seem to be problematic...

 

[Greenback]

You can't reserve a seat on South West trains and that doesn't seem to be problematic...

...which brings us nicely back to a suggestion I made about having a space reserved rather tahn a specific seat, as is currently the case with LM, (I think!), SWT and ATW.

 

[LateThanNever]

...which brings us nicely back to a suggestion I made about having a space reserved rather tahn a specific seat, as is currently the case with LM, (I think!), SWT and ATW.

So does that mean that if you can't get on the train you get your money back - or you just have to wait for the next one?

 

[Greenback]

So does that mean that if you can't get on the train you get your money back - or you just have to wait for the next one?

I don't know, it's never happened to me. I'd imagine if you were physically unable to board a train you could get your ticket endorsed to this effect and travel on the enxt service. But you certainly don't get your money back if all seats are occupied when you board.

 

[button_boxer]

The electronic reservation displays would be fine if it weren't for scrolling. If the messages could be made short enough that they didn't have to scroll then it would be much easier to see at a glance which seats were available and which weren't, rather than having to wait several seconds at every seat until the relevant bit of message scrolls into view. Colour coding would be even better

Available (i.e. not reserved anywhere between here and terminus)
Available until Leeds
(something like Reservable by SMS for TMR seats)
Reserved to Birmingham

Keep the station names as short as possible without being ambiguous, i.e. rather than "Birmingham New Street" just say "Birmingham" (or maybe "Birmingham NS" if the train also stops at International). And if it must scroll then only scroll until the last letter appears at the right, no need to scroll the whole way across until the last letter has disappeared off the left hand side.

 

[Greenback]

The electronic reservation displays would be fine if it weren't for scrolling. If the messages could be made short enough that they didn't have to scroll then it would be much easier to see at a glance which seats were available and which weren't, rather than having to wait several seconds at every seat until the relevant bit of message scrolls into view. Colour coding would be even better

Available (i.e. not reserved anywhere between here and terminus)
Available until Leeds
(something like Reservable online for TMR seats)
Reserved to Birmingham

Keep the station names as short as possible without being ambiguous, i.e. rather than "Birmingham New Street" just say "Birmingham" (or maybe "Birmingham NS" if the train also stops at International). And if it must scroll then only scroll until the last letter appears at the right, no need to scroll the whole way across until the last letter has disappeared off the left hand side.

Very sensible suggestions there, far too sensible to ever be introduced, in fact!

 

[button_boxer]

Very sensible suggestions there, far too sensible to ever be introduced, in fact!

The software on 222s seems to make a much better job of reservation displays than that on 220s and 221s, so it's clearly possible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

...which brings us nicely back to a suggestion I made about having a space reserved rather tahn a specific seat, as is currently the case with LM, (I think!), SWT and ATW.

You don't get a space reserved on LM, SWT, ATW or Northern. The reservation coupon you get with Advance tickets doesn't guarantee you anything. The coupon solely exists because there isn't a better way of indicating what your booked train is.

Going down the route of these "reservation" coupons is essentially the same as having no reservations whatsoever.

The problem with XC is not the Ten Minute Reservation system, it is the fact that the electronic displays are temperamental. If the displays were a bit clearer- "SIT HERE AND YOU'LL LIKELY HAVE TO MOVE"- there would be no issue at all. I'll agree that the XC displays are, really, a bit rubbish. I don't think they're ambiguous but they are small.

With the TMR system, sitting in a seat knowing that it might be reserved later, is no different to sitting in a seat hoping that the person holding the reservation doesn't get on later. On XC there's often little choice, but that's not an issue with the reservation system, that's a capacity issue.

Of course none of this would be an issue if the trains were long enough - there's no excuse for this sort of overcrowding at off-peak times, and if one goes by car none of these issues arise.

Define "off peak". Sundays are typically one of the busiest days of the week on the railways.

Motorways are frequently overcrowded, though it is a different sort of overcrowding.

 

[table38]

Very sensible suggestions there, far too sensible to ever be introduced, in fact!

Far more likely some genius will start inserting advertising on the scrolling displays, or maybe even H&S notices

 

[Greenback]

You don't get a space reserved on LM, SWT, ATW or Northern. The reservation coupon you get with Advance tickets doesn't guarantee you anything. The coupon solely exists because there isn't a better way of indicating what your booked train is.

No, technically you don't get a reserved space, but I can't think of another way of putting it without being pedantic. Having been booked on to a service then that is one 'place' taken from the quota per passenger.

Going down the route of these "reservation" coupons is essentially the same as having no reservations whatsoever.

Apart from the quota aspect, yes, you're right. At least it provides a method of controlling how many of the cheaper tickets are available on a train, which is another area which needs to be looked at.

The problem with XC is not the Ten Minute Reservation system, it is the fact that the electronic displays are temperamental. If the displays were a bit clearer- "SIT HERE AND YOU'LL LIKELY HAVE TO MOVE"- there would be no issue at all. I'll agree that the XC displays are, really, a bit rubbish. I don't think they're ambiguous but they are small.

A scheme such as TMR has merit as I have said before, it just doesn't work on XC due to poor implementation. Insiders tell me that the guidance from anagement on what should be done where there is conflict is both inconsistent and sparse. The displays are poor and do not convey the correct message in a clear and understandable manner. And, lastly, there are so few seats on ridiculously short trains that it is almost inevitable that conflict will result when someone is asked to mvoe due tot he above failings.

With the TMR system, sitting in a seat knowing that it might be reserved later, is no different to sitting in a seat hoping that the person holding the reservation doesn't get on later. On XC there's often little choice, but that's not an issue with the reservation system, that's a capacity issue.

The main difference is that with traditional cut off times you know if that seat has been reserved or not. There is no guesswork, no hope, and no doubt. You have the information on which to make an informed decision. With TMR, there is no way of knowing whether that seat will be reserved later or not. It is the uncertainty that people don't like. And this is compounded when the displays are blank so you have no way at all of knowing whether the seat you are going to sit in is reserved, may be reserved later on, or available.

 

[bramling]

You don't get a space reserved on LM, SWT, ATW or Northern. The reservation coupon you get with Advance tickets doesn't guarantee you anything. The coupon solely exists because there isn't a better way of indicating what your booked train is.

Going down the route of these "reservation" coupons is essentially the same as having no reservations whatsoever.

The problem with XC is not the Ten Minute Reservation system, it is the fact that the electronic displays are temperamental. If the displays were a bit clearer- "SIT HERE AND YOU'LL LIKELY HAVE TO MOVE"- there would be no issue at all. I'll agree that the XC displays are, really, a bit rubbish. I don't think they're ambiguous but they are small.

With the TMR system, sitting in a seat knowing that it might be reserved later, is no different to sitting in a seat hoping that the person holding the reservation doesn't get on later. On XC there's often little choice, but that's not an issue with the reservation system, that's a capacity issue.



Define "off peak". Sundays are typically one of the busiest days of the week on the railways.

Motorways are frequently overcrowded, though it is a different sort of overcrowding.

I would still expect there to be enough rolling stock available to ensure there is not gross overcrowding at weekends. One expects a certain amount of commuter overcrowding in & out of the main cities at the start and end of the working day, however there is no excuse at weekends - apart from maybe when there are particular events in a given location.

Whilst you may get congestion on the motorway, I would rather sit for 4 hours in the car on the motorway, than stand for 4 hours in a train with tempers flaring and kids running wild all over the place. Normally on the road it's possible to choose times where it's unlikely to be congested, not always a reliable science, but more reliable than predicting which trains are likely to be overcrowded.