Remote working preferences (in the longer term)

[VauxhallandI]

When you are hot desking don't you have to spend time every morning adjusting the chair to suit you? Also does it make the office more sterile with less option for personal stuff on desks?

All our desks are electric height adjustable and the chairs only really have three things to adjust but I don’t notice anyone adjusting. I don’t and I’m over 2 metres tall, I just hit up on the desk!

To be fair some people have their names on their chairs if they have specific orthopaedic needs agreed by the Occupational Heath Unit.

I guess I’m more of a minimalist anyway but to be fair the majority of things on my desk were essentially tat and junk. In fact I have it all in a tea crate in the corner as I don’t get it home but I’ve not missed a thing in there. I’ve regressed in the fact I have a sort of pencil box with a charging cable, screen cleaner and bits in which I chuck in the locker with my hot drink cup.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Im due to start a graduate scheme this september. Not sure if its happening , (Not heard anything from them0, expecting the worst . Will be hard if i cant get trained in office . Job is a misture of site visits and office work.Cant really learn the ropes from home.

My other half has taken on an assistant during lockdown and she has to teach her how to use several software systems via conference call/screen share.

She said it’s not ideal but it has worked.

 

[BJames]

Why would you want to spend every weekday huddled in big metal tubes with other half awake commuters when you can have an extra hour in bed, or enjoy a decent breakfast, or spend extra time with your family? Of course, there's a generation of 'old school' bosses who think having rows of heads at office desks is the only proper way to run things...

I'm still personally of the opinion that you're not as productive at home. A lot of people don't have decent enough work spaces in their houses. Plus, in the office you can get to know your fellow colleagues and build more of a team.

This why it's more likely that companies downsize rather than completely getting rid of their offices - they can implement "hot-desking" and get people in for only a couple of days a week, and that means people can live further away if they're only travelling in once or twice a week at the most. They'd be happier to put up with a commute where they'll get a seat and can get some things done on their way in.

 

[DB]

I'm still personally of the opinion that you're not as productive at home. A lot of people don't have decent enough work spaces in their houses. Plus, in the office you can get to know your fellow colleagues and build more of a team. This is why it's more likely that companies downsize rather than completely getting rid of their offices - they can implement "hot-desking" and get people in for only a couple of days a week, and that means people can live further away if they're only travelling in once or twice a week at the most. They'd be happier to put up with a commute where they'll get a seat and can get some things done on their way in.

Many seem to have this view that everyone wants to work from home all the time, but those of us involved in planning and facilitating the recent home working aren't seeing this. At work (about 150 staff) we did a survey recently, and the results seem to have been pretty much what I expected - i.e. a fair number of people would be interested in working from home two or three days a week, but hardly anyone wants to work at home all the time permanently.

There are also of course many jobs which can't be done from home at all, or can only be done with considerably reduced effectiveness.

 

[BJames]

Interesting to hear - I think this would work out well and will hopefully stimulate growth in localities as well, maybe saving some of these "commuter towns". It will definitely be interesting to see how this pans out over the next few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many seem to have this view that everyone wants to work from home all the time, but those of us involved in planning and facilitating the recent home working aren't seeing this. At work (about 150 staff) we did a survey recently, and the results seem to have been pretty much what I expected - i.e. a fair number of people would be interested in working from home two or three days a week, but hardly anyone wants to work at home all the time permanently.

Yes, but that's no problem in itself. Go ride a random South East medium-distance commuter service and see how quiet it is on a Friday - on most routes a seat is pretty certain. Imagine it being like that all week. A mass switch to 2 days a week, if you assume those days are likely to mostly be two of Monday-Thursday (and I can't see anything specifically attractive about choosing any specific days out of those, so it's likely to be pretty evenly distributed), is likely to reduce the daily peak demand by something like 25-30% (taking into account that there are also commuters who don't do office jobs, but if you look at an average Home Counties commuter train you can tell from the dress that it's most people who do). That's a lot, and that makes for far cheaper operations and a far more comfortable journey. It also means cheaper office space, as you only need half the number of desks.

 

[takno]

Yes, but that's no problem in itself. Go ride a random South East medium-distance commuter service and see how quiet it is on a Friday - on most routes a seat is pretty certain. Imagine it being like that all week. A mass switch to 2 days a week, if you assume those days are likely to mostly be two of Monday-Thursday (and I can't see anything specifically attractive about choosing any specific days out of those, so it's likely to be pretty evenly distributed), is likely to reduce the daily peak demand by something like 25-30% (taking into account that there are also commuters who don't do office jobs, but if you look at an average Home Counties commuter train you can tell from the dress that it's most people who do). That's a lot, and that makes for far cheaper operations and a far more comfortable journey. It also means cheaper office space, as you only need half the number of desks.

I'm seeing a fair preference for 3 days rather than 2, and for most people Friday is right out, then Monday, and Wednesday. Everyone appears to be fine with Tuesday and Thursday. Take in the numbers of people who are already working from home sometimes anyway, and the people who can't or won't be trusted to work from home at all, and really you aren't going to get a significant reduction in peaks at all, albeit that Mondays and Fridays may be smaller than the rest of the week

 

[DB]

Yes, but that's no problem in itself. Go ride a random South East medium-distance commuter service and see how quiet it is on a Friday - on most routes a seat is pretty certain. Imagine it being like that all week. A mass switch to 2 days a week, if you assume those days are likely to mostly be two of Monday-Thursday (and I can't see anything specifically attractive about choosing any specific days out of those, so it's likely to be pretty evenly distributed), is likely to reduce the daily peak demand by something like 25-30%. That's a lot, and that makes for far cheaper operations and a far more comfortable journey. It also means cheaper office space, as you only need half the number of desks.

The whole office space thing depends on lots of factors, but it's not as clearcut as it may appear - e.g. if people need to work together then there could well be larger numbers on specific days. We don't reckon that, in our case, it would make a great deal of difference to the amount of office space required if there was to be a significant increase in part-time home working - although we do already have some staff who work out on site for part of the week, and some hotdesking.

What companies will also need to take into account is IT cost (this is my area) - if people are going to be working at home permanently for part of the week, not only will laptops and probably also docking stations / monitors be required, but also where a desktop is effectively shared by three people that would translate to three laptops, one docking station/monitor for the office, and possibly three more for home use - it's a significant cost increase, and one which not all companies will be able or willing to countenance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What companies will also need to take into account is IT cost (this is my area) - if people are going to be working at home permanently for part of the week, not only will laptops and probably also docking stations / monitors be required, but also where a desktop is effectively shared by three people that would translate to three laptops, one docking station/monitor for the office, and possibly three more for home use - it's a significant cost increase, and one which not all companies will be able or willing to countenance.

Increasingly few businesses use desktop PCs, as they're these days not much differently priced from laptops, and they don't provide the resilience factor - if the office has to be evacuated, anywhere with Wifi is a workplace.

 

[DB]

Increasingly few businesses use desktop PCs, as they're these days not much differently priced from laptops, and they don't provide the resilience factor - if the office has to be evacuated, anywhere with Wifi is a workplace.

Do you actually work in IT?

I can assure you that many do still use desktops, and the overall lifetime costs of laptops are considerably higher for a variety of reasons. I've bought (and maintained) enough of both types over the years that I do have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about here!

Desktops are also a lot less accident-prone - they tend not to get dropped and broken, and if a cup of tea is poured over the keyboard, well, that's about 15 quid for a new keyboard. If that happens with a laptop it's quite likely to be a complete write-off.

 

[island]

Increasingly few businesses use desktop PCs, as they're these days not much differently priced from laptops, and they don't provide the resilience factor - if the office has to be evacuated, anywhere with Wifi is a workplace.

I suggest that you're quite far from correct with that statement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suggest that you're quite far from correct with that statement.

I'm not sure I am. But in any case there are other options. Most people who work in an office are likely to have a home PC of some description, so you've got the option of a Citrix (or similar) remote desktop, and then you only have to supply a machine (and a cheap one would do) to those who don't. I've worked for clients who even have their office desktops running as Citrix terminals, as it's much easier to maintain, the desktops are basically dumb terminals.

 

[DB]

I'm not sure I am. But in any case there are other options. Most people who work in an office are likely to have a home PC of some description, so you've got the option of a Citrix (or similar) remote desktop, and then you only have to supply a machine (and a cheap one would do) to those who don't. I've worked for clients who even have their office desktops running as Citrix terminals, as it's much easier to maintain, the desktops are basically dumb terminals.

Having loads of people using home computers is not a long-term solution - frankly it's a pain in the arse, as the company then effectively (intentionally or not) becomes responsible for tech support on them, and doesn't have control over security software, patching, etc. Also, many people have very antiquated and often cheap-and-nasty computers at home! While many companies have made do with this situation as a short-term measure in the current circumstances, it's not viable long-term.

As regards remote desktop systems (we don't use Citrix, but do use something similar), yes that's what many companies will do, but the device being used to access it needs to be up to the job - no point in buying cheap crap computers which don't last the course, and end up costing you more in the long term because of staff time put into maintenance and more frequent replacements. Good-quality computers designed for business use, even fairly low spec ones, are not that cheap.

More use of remote desktop systems is also just shifting the spend elsewhere - the computers might be a bit cheaper, but the server infrastructure behind it is more expensive, especially if individual remote desktops (as opposed to shared session-based terminal servers) are required. Yes, there is the cloudy option, but calculated over the lifetime of server hardware this normally works out more expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having loads of people using home computers is not a long-term solution - frankly it's a pain in the arse, as the company then effectively (intentionally or not) becomes responsible for tech support on them, and doesn't have control over security software, patching, etc.

I think you rather miss the point there! Citrix obviates the need for most of that - it basically makes your PC a terminal onto the company's system, which you just use directly. Keyloggers potentially pose a risk, but there are ways around that - one former client had you type your password by clicking buttons on screen.

 

[DB]

I think you rather miss the point there! Citrix obviates the need for most of that - it basically makes your PC a terminal onto the company's system, which you just use directly. Keyloggers potentially pose a risk, but there are ways around that - one former client had you type your password by clicking buttons on screen.

Given that I have designed and set up, from scratch, several systems along the lines you describe, I'm really not that likely to miss the point! The fact remains (this is personal experience, not just theorising) that it's not viable to have people using home computers, other than possibly just for occasional use. If people are woking at home regularly, the company then becomes responsible (effectively, even if not stated) for maintaining that home computer so that the person can work - and with some of the junk out there, that's a massive pain in the arse and can be very time consuming. The company is also (legally) responsible for workplace assessments to comply with health & safety responsiblites - and laptops do not generally meet this for anything other than occasional use, unless some combination of docking stations / monitors / USB keyboards & mice / laptop risers are used.

Then there is security. Keyloggers are one risk,but not the only one (and clicking on screen doesn't necessarily defeat all such malware). Many people will have no antivirus. They may be running out-of-support operating systems (particularly Windows 7), they may have all manner of dodgy junk installed on their computer. As I say, many companies have had to accept this as a short-term measure (around the beginning of April, business laptops were out of stock nearly everywhere), but it's not one which many will want to accept long-term.

As for using dumb terminals in place of desktops in offices, that can work in some circumstances but is not always suitable. If the back end consists of session-based terminal servers it's a lot less flexible than using standard desktops with software running locally - this is a significant downside. If a full VDI system is in use with individual VMs / customised images then it works better, but the underlying server infrastruture for that is considerably more expensive.

 

[3rd rail land]

Given that I have designed and set up, from scratch, several systems along the lines you describe, I'm really not that likely to miss the point! The fact remains (this is personal experience, not just theorising) that it's not viable to have people using home computers, other than possibly just for occasional use. If people are woking at home regularly, the company then becomes responsible (effectively, even if not stated) for maintaining that home computer so that the person can work - and with some of the junk out there, that's a massive pain in the arse and can be very time consuming. The company is also (legally) responsible for workplace assessments to comply with health & safety responsiblites - and laptops do not generally meet this for anything other than occasional use, unless some combination of docking stations / monitors / USB keyboards & mice / laptop risers are used.

Then there is security. Keyloggers are one risk,but not the only one (and clicking on screen doesn't necessarily defeat all such malware). Many people will have no antivirus. They may be running out-of-support operating systems (particularly Windows 7), they may have all manner of dodgy junk installed on their computer. As I say, many companies have had to accept this as a short-term measure (around the beginning of April, business laptops were out of stock nearly everywhere), but it's not one which many will want to accept long-term.

As for using dumb terminals in place of desktops in offices, that can work in some circumstances but is not always suitable. If the back end consists of session-based terminal servers it's a lot less flexible than using standard desktops with software running locally - this is a significant downside. If a full VDI system is in use with individual VMs / customised images then it works better, but the underlying server infrastruture for that is considerably more expensive.

Like yourself I have designed, built, configured and supported similar setups, although most have been rather small scale for specific programme needs rather than for the corporate IT department.
I agree with what you are saying here. Letting people use any form of corporate functionality is not a good idea except for perhaps a web portal where one can access webmail, intranet etc.. Its more time & effort and probably cost to support devices not built & configured by the company that person is working for.

 

[C J Snarzell]

After several years in the police service I am a staunch believer for home lives & work lives to be kept apart - it goes back to the old fashion saying about 'not mixing business with pleasure'.

Up until my fixed term contract ended a fortnight ago, I was working from home having been forced to work remotely when the lockdown started in March.

I hated it and I truly miss having a workplace to go into. I am a person who enjoys structure to a day and I miss the journey into work, I miss listening to the car radio, I miss calling into McDonald's for a brew, I miss the physical interaction of the workplace, I miss the short walks I used to take on my break and I generally miss the whole experience of working away from the house!!!

The problem I have with remote working is being confined in the same four walls all day every day & when my rest days have come round they have not actually felt like days off because I have been working in the house anyway!!!

I do suspect many people will continue with remote working well beyond the end of lockdown and this suits them fine. If that's great for them and their work doesn't suffer then I would encourage it. Sadly, for me I could not be a remote worker long term.

CJ

 

[johntea]

We have recently invested in Citrix, weirdly it came about due to a cost exercise - do you replace 4,000 computers at a cost of £1.5 million to support Windows 10 going forward (no choice, Windows 7 is now out of support although we do have extended support in place) or £2 million to build up a Citrix virtual desktop infrastructure

I've not actually been involved in it that much so far but feedback so far has been fairly positive from the home workers, they can just download a small application (Citrix Receiver) on their home devices and connect straight in to their 'virtual' desktop, which they can then pick up on again from another device - although from a technical point of view there are currently a lot of headaches! Mainly software that the organization is still using from the 90s and the like which simply refuses to work when deploying it onto a virtual desktop... (Having done several major software migrations / upgrades recently it is very pleasing to see that many developers are now moving away from application based clients to web based client interfaces instead!)

 

[DB]

Mainly software that the organization is still using from the 90s and the like which simply refuses to work when deploying it onto a virtual desktop... (Having done several major software migrations / upgrades recently it is very pleasing to see that many developers are now moving away from application based clients to web based client interfaces instead!)

Yeah, compatibiity of software can certainly be a headache in these circumstances! Licensing requirements is another one.

I absolutely agree about web clients being good - it often allows the choice between hosting it on premises, or by the software company as SaaS, and it avoids all the hassle of having to update the client part on however many computers / images / VMs when a new version arrives.

 

[MikeWM]

I've always strongly resisted working from home, even when those I worked with seemed to be increasingly moving towards doing it, at least some of the time.

But having done it for almost 4 months now - yes, I see the benefits I wouldn't want to do so full-time forever, but I can easily see myself doing it 1 or 2 days a week in the future.

Think it helps that I live alone though. Wouldn't want to do it with other people in the house.

Also, my quarterly electricity bill just came in, and the increase over normal was about what I saved from approx. 3 weeks of not commuting. So I've saved the money from the other 10 weeks

 

[Sand_elf]

I put all the time except for meetings. I'm quite happy with my 7 second commute time to work, but the occasional face to face contact with colleagues would be nice

 

[bussnapperwm]

I started WFHing this week after returning from Long term sick and I hate it. I want to go back to the office sharpish!

Teams is not as good as being able to be in the same office as everyone else and just being able to chat about whatever we want (we can't even slag the gaffer off behind their back if we were that way inclined on Teams as they act as Host for meetings)

Half of our systems are slow as hell to load at home (my armchair is next to the router and its slow opening up certain server based documents/files) and our IT won't allow us to move our main software to a browser based system as it'll cost more to implement.

Can't print letters off at home as we have to use a corporate print management system and corporate approved prepaid envelopes. Some of our letters even require controlled stationary so we can't keep that at home

Can't process phone calls or mail at home (and our Financial Team won't let us take calls involving payments at home)

Can't concentrate, living in a two bedroom house with two brothers who both have varied forms of autism, an overactive Springer and a small living room and kitchen (and with the particular provicities of the British Weather Can't sit outside on some days due to rain.

Plus I miss my lunchbreak strolls round the chippy and Park by my office. And my commutes - being able to spend that time getting into work/home mode.

I need my desk badly (my favourite coffee cup is there still!!!)

 

[bussnapperwm]

Yeah, compatibiity of software can certainly be a headache in these circumstances! Licensing requirements is another one.

I absolutely agree about web clients being good - it often allows the choice between hosting it on premises, or by the software company as SaaS, and it avoids all the hassle of having to update the client part on however many computers / images / VMs when a new version arrives.

My employer (a LA) insists o hosting the software itself if it can. Theyve only got used to using Teams and Sharepoint because of COVID-19. They won't even allow their own parking wardens to connect their ticket machines to PCs/Bluetooth/WIFI. They insist on a 3G connection.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think you rather miss the point there! Citrix obviates the need for most of that - it basically makes your PC a terminal onto the company's system, which you just use directly. Keyloggers potentially pose a risk, but there are ways around that - one former client had you type your password by clicking buttons on screen.

Keyloggers are not the only fruit for hackers. I recently listened to a podcast about at least one previous Citrix exploit, if I can dig out the link I'll drop it in here.

We have recently invested in Citrix, weirdly it came about due to a cost exercise - do you replace 4,000 computers at a cost of £1.5 million to support Windows 10 going forward (no choice, Windows 7 is now out of support although we do have extended support in place) or £2 million to build up a Citrix virtual desktop infrastructure

I've not actually been involved in it that much so far but feedback so far has been fairly positive from the home workers, they can just download a small application (Citrix Receiver) on their home devices and connect straight in to their 'virtual' desktop, which they can then pick up on again from another device - although from a technical point of view there are currently a lot of headaches! Mainly software that the organization is still using from the 90s and the like which simply refuses to work when deploying it onto a virtual desktop... (Having done several major software migrations / upgrades recently it is very pleasing to see that many developers are now moving away from application based clients to web based client interfaces instead!)

Funnily enough my department has been moving in the opposite direction, getting rid of thin client devices & remote desktops to client side operation with a mixture of mini-PCs on sites & lappies with VPN connections for off-site /working from home. Citrix (or indeed other similar solutions) are fine sometimes, but they can be a royal pain in the behind. We found Citrix less stable than our VPNs once we'd resolved some initial capacity issues.

 

[westv]

Can't print letters off at home as we have to use a corporate print management system and corporate approved prepaid envelopes.

And my commutes - being able to spend that time getting into work/home mode.

I haven't sent a work letter for well over a decade. It's all email.
And I never thought I would read someone saying they missed their commute.

 

[DB]

I haven't sent a work letter for well over a decade. It's all email.
And I never thought I would read someone saying they missed their commute.

Depends what line of business you are in, and what role. I personally rarely send printed letters, but some of my colleagues send a lot - paper is a long way from being eliminated!

 

[bussnapperwm]

I haven't sent a work letter for well over a decade. It's all email.
And I never thought I would read someone saying they missed their commute.

Yeah, well, I'm only a 10 minute lift from my office plus as I don't drive, its even better!

Dealing with customers in a LA civil enforcement office we still have to send out letters telling people to pay outstanding fines. Same with the passes we sell, we have to post them out as our software hasnt heard of QR codes!

 

[Crossover]

On the laptop/desktop discussion, on average I would say a quality laptop costs about double the price of a similarly specced desktop (exlcuding monitor)

We are in the camp of not allowing home devices (we used to when I first started at the place, and it was a bloody nightmare!) - I did have to make exception and when a laptop decided to BitLocker itself at the start of lockdown I had to set up a home PC to connect temporarily - problem was their regular home machine was spoken for by other family members so a desktop (I think) was dusted off - must have taken a good 10 minutes just to get our remote access software running on it so I could do the necessary. The laptop was in the office for repair within 2 hours!

 

[The Ham]

Many seem to have this view that everyone wants to work from home all the time, but those of us involved in planning and facilitating the recent home working aren't seeing this. At work (about 150 staff) we did a survey recently, and the results seem to have been pretty much what I expected - i.e. a fair number of people would be interested in working from home two or three days a week, but hardly anyone wants to work at home all the time permanently.

There are also of course many jobs which can't be done from home at all, or can only be done with considerably reduced effectiveness.

I suspect that the perception is that working from home is expected by some that it'll be no more going to the office almost ever.

In reality I suspect that there's going to be 20-40% of people working 10-50% of the time at home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that the perception is that working from home is expected by some that it'll be no more going to the office almost ever.

In reality I suspect that there's going to be 20-40% of people working 10-50% of the time at home.

I would expect that most office-based Home Counties-London commuters will most likely do 2 days a week or thereabouts in the office and 3 from home.

Of course there are plenty of jobs that don't suit home-working, but pretty much all office jobs[1] do in some form.

At a rough guess, I'd say we will end up with Friday levels of commuting all week on average.

[1] I don't mean offices that have customers e.g. tax offices, I mean administrative type office work.