Remaining semaphore signal boxes

[John Webb]

Most of those on the ex GWR/WR will be lower quadrant, but by no means all - off the top of my head Shrewsbury is one that has a mix (and a colour light or two!)

Has the ex-MR l/q distant at Ketton gone now, anyone?

It is Ketton's Down Starter signal, not a distant:
Ketton Down Starter signal

© Copyright Alan Murray-Rust and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
Although the photo is some 9 years old (click on it to go to the larger original on the Geograph website) I am assured it is still there by one of our signal box trust members who now works Ketton box as well as others along that line.

 

[LowLevel]

Dee Marsh has not had any semaphores in quite literally decades. Frodsham Junction had its semaphores removed in early 2018 and has had a panel ever since.


Yes, Eastfield, but a number of replacements are underway. Some of the shunt discs have been replaced with position lights, and I believe the remaining semaphore arms are being replaced with colour lights fairly soon.


Yes - Eggington, Tutbury & Hatton, Sudbury, Scropton, Uttoxeter and Foley Crossing all have semaphores - Caverswall had all theirs removed in 1989. As mentioned above, Moreton-in-Marsh is the only Cotswold line box to still have semaphores.

Caverswall still has semaphore shunt discs. As I mentioned earlier in the thread Sudbury is all colour light with barriers, whereas Scropton is all semaphore with manual gates and even retaining it's trailing crossover.

 

[Lucy1501]

Caverswall still has semaphore shunt discs. As I mentioned earlier in the thread Sudbury is all colour light with barriers, whereas Scropton is all semaphore with manual gates and even retaining it's trailing crossover.

Shunt discs aren't classed as semaphores, semaphores are the arms. Wasn't aware of Sudbury, thanks for telling us that.

 

[LowLevel]

Shunt discs aren't classed as semaphores, semaphores are the arms. Wasn't aware of Sudbury, thanks for telling us that.

When it comes to general interest I just lump them all together as mechanical signalling, shunt discs and their ilk are just as interesting as things with arms on to me - that being said so are colour lights

The shunt discs at Caverswall actually caused a bit of a stir fairly recently when a train was stood at them using the crossover and unexpectedly got the top disc for the out of use up loop. The signaller insisted they'd pulled the right lever (you'd hope so with interlocking etc!) and it turned out the wrong wire had been connected to the wrong signal after maintenance - oops!

 

[infobleep]

Class 395 HS1 services start with KVB and colour lights at St Pancras before switching to TVM on Hs1 and then changing again to colour lights with AWS and TPWS at Ashford International before arriving at Deal still controlled by Semaphore signals.

Very interesting. What is KVB and TVM?

I know Advanced Warning System and Train Protection Warning System but others may not.

It surprises me that some areas still have mechnical signalling when your think by now they wouldn't. I don't mean sleepy backwaters but places like Deal and Hastings, unless they really are sleepy backwaters.

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Interesting. I note Openrailwaymap is still showing the semaphores there. There are still some mechanical lever signal boxes surviving on the West Coast Main Line, notably around Stockport, but I don't think any of them control any semaphores or direct mechanical points any more.
Some photos of Stockport No.1 for example:

LNW (North) / Manchester Area (including Stockport) / Stockport No 1 | Signalling Photos

LNW (North) / Manchester Area (including Stockport) / Stockport No 1

photos.signalling.org

That is an example of something I was surprised see when I was travelling to Mancheater once.

 

[Railsigns]

I know Advanced Warning System and Train Protection Warning System but others may not.

KVB = Contrôle de Vitesse par Balises
TVM = Transmission Voie-Machine
AWS = Automatic Warning System.
TPWS = Train Protection and Warning System

 

[zwk500]

Very interesting. What is KVB and TVM?

KVB - French Speed supervision system for the classic lines, fulfilling similar job to ATP (not 100% on the technical differences between the various ATP systems and KVB).
TVM - French In-cab speed signalling system for their LGVs.

 

[Llanigraham]

The Great Western Railway and Western Region continued to use lower quadrants long after other companies had changed to upper quadrants. However, a number of areas, particularly the lines north of Aynho, Hartlebury and Craven Arms, were transferred to other regions: as signals were replaced the new region often did so to its (upper quadrant) standard. Shrewsbury was originally Western-style signalling, but some signals were replaced on a like-for-like basis and other by LM designs.

Marshbrook, Craven Arms, Bromfield, Woofferton Junct are all Lower Quadrant.
Onibury and Moreton on Lugg are colour light.

 

[MarkyT]

Very interesting. What is KVB and TVM?

They are both French train protection or control systems. KVB (Contrôle de vitesse par balises) is a limited supervision system employed widely on historic lines. Used in conjunction with trackside colour light signals, it's functionally similar to UK TPWS/AWS, being intermittent in nature and having trainstop, advance warning and overspeed intervention capabilities. Developed in the 1990s, it uses fixed and switched digital balises very similar to later Eurobalises. TVM (Transmission Voie-Machine) is a family of full cab signalling systems using fixed trackside block markers in place of signals and speed codes superimposed over track circuit current to transmit movement authority to a train. The latest incarnation is TVM 430, used on HS1 and Eurotunnel as well as many French LGVs. 430 is the top speed in km/h it can permit.

 

[paul1609]

It surprises me that some areas still have mechnical signalling when your think by now they wouldn't. I don't mean sleepy backwaters but places like Deal and Hastings, unless they really are sleepy backwaters.

Hastings, Littlehampton and Bognor the semaphore signals are adjacent to the signal box which also controls access to/ from depots or carriage sidings so it probably makes sense to retain the local box if you were going to need it for the depot anyway.
Deal is on a diagonal level crossing with a quite modern box that also controls access to an engineers siding. I think the layout of the level crossing and its access to an industrial unit made it difficult for it to be automated like the rest of the East Kent Crossings so it has currently been left as an island in otherwise modern signalling

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Is there anything left on the Dudding Hill Line?

Unless there have been changes in recent weeks, there are still semaphore signals east of Neasden Junction. West of the junction, it's all colour lights.

 

[MarkyT]

Hastings, Littlehampton and Bognor the semaphore signals are adjacent to the signal box which also controls access to/ from depots or carriage sidings so it probably makes sense to retain the local box if you were going to need it for the depot anyway.

At Littlehampton and Bognor, the station platforms effectively become part of the depot/stabling yards overnight, holding many units in total. Trains are shuffled around for washing, cleaning, tanking etc.

 

[melon68]

Swinderby still survives between Newark and Lincoln, the box was due for replacement along with its semaphores but it's been delayed for a few more years...

 

[Llanigraham]

When I joined the railway at Bromfield 15 years ago I waas told that the Box was due to close in 2015, and that the cost to transfer control of the Box and the level crossing to a central location was almost a million pounds. It didn't close!
That date has slipped and slipped backwards as quick as the costs has increased.
What I suspect will happen is that gradually the semaphores will be replaced by colour light signals, as already done at Moreton on Lugg, as they wear out and replacements are not available, and gradually the levers and the lovely wood and brass Block Machins will be replaced by simple NX type panels. That will make regionalisation easier.

 

[infobleep]

Hastings, Littlehampton and Bognor the semaphore signals are adjacent to the signal box which also controls access to/ from depots or carriage sidings so it probably makes sense to retain the local box if you were going to need it for the depot anyway.
Deal is on a diagonal level crossing with a quite modern box that also controls access to an engineers siding. I think the layout of the level crossing and its access to an industrial unit made it difficult for it to be automated like the rest of the East Kent Crossings so it has currently been left as an island in otherwise modern signalling

Interesting. Thanks.

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At Littlehampton and Bognor, the station platforms effectively become part of the depot/stabling yards overnight, holding many units in total. Trains are shuffled around for washing, cleaning, tanking etc.

So is it a case of they don't want to do it because it will disrupt the depot?

 

[Rescars]

No idea about Uttoxeter, but Moreton-in-Marsh on the Cotswold Line still has semaphores in the station area. The lever frame also operates colour light signals further out.

The remaining semaphores at Ascott-Under-Wychwood and Evesham were removed in 2011, when digital panels replaced the lever frames as part of the redoubling project.

This page has lots of photos of the situation pre and post-redoubling at Moreton-in-Marsh.

Adrian the Rock - Signals at Moreton-in-Marsh

Travelling beyond the Cotswolds, are there still semaphores between Worcester and Hereford?

 

[The exile]

Interesting. Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


So is it a case of they don't want to do it because it will disrupt the depot?

Or more that the savings (if any) would be so minimal there’s no point.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I travelled from Piccadilly to Sheffield yesterday and saw a UQ home semaphore around New Mills or Chinley.

I also saw a fixed distant board somewhere nearer to Birmingham. Do you count them as semaphore signals even though they have no mechanism ?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

At Littlehampton and Bognor, the station platforms effectively become part of the depot/stabling yards overnight, holding many units in total. Trains are shuffled around for washing, cleaning, tanking etc.

Interesting. Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


So is it a case of they don't want to do it because it will disrupt the depot?

Trains do use the depot but I've never seen it full of units. Platform stabling is convenient and saves reverse shunt moves across the main lines

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Are there still semaphores at Grain (Kent)?

 

[MarkyT]

Or more that the savings (if any) would be so minimal there’s no point.

Trains do use the depot but I've never seen it full of units. Platform stabling is convenient and saves reverse shunt moves across the main lines

At such termini, if you try and divide the layout between national network remote controlled from afar and TOC sidings controlled locally it can become less efficient. A movement between the two would require cooperation and extra time, while a signaller based locally is more intimately involved in the shunting process. It's possible the TOC might need more shunting staff locally and that needs to be paid for. The signaller transferred to a distant large control centre would probably also be dealing with other areas so response time for a shunt request could be increased. A low grade signaller at a small box might be replaced by more expensive higher-grade staff at the control centre. Lots of factors to weigh.

There are technical solutions that can be employed where automatic route setting is provided. The chief TOC shunter at the site can be provided with a remote train describer terminal for inputting special headcodes representing particular local movement sequences generically. A particular code could represent a movement or series of movements from (say) "north sidings exit to platform 3, via headshunt, ASAP". ARS at the control centre would be programmed to interpret such codes and implement the movements as soon as possible without any direct involvement by the signaller, although they could intervene by collaring signals or points or disabling the local ARS sub-area. That system was employed at Old Oak Common depot on the GWML in the 1990s resignalling. It included codes for stock from the yard for particular departures from Paddington where depot staff couldn't possibly know what platform at the terminus the train would depart from that day. The ARS would automatically redirect the train to the correct platform for the particular train on receiving the code.

 

[DerekC]

Does NR have a specific target to get rid of semaphores and mechanical interlockings?

 

[Western 52]

Out of interest, do any semaphores survive in Ireland? I remember plenty there in the 80s and 90s, but I know they've done a lot of resignalling since.

 

[D6130]

Out of interest, do any semaphores survive in Ireland? I remember plenty there in the 80s and 90s, but I know they've done a lot of resignalling since.

There are no semaphore signals remaining in Northern Ireland....other than at museums and heritage lines. IIRC, the two remaining pockets of semaphores in the Republic are on the Ballybrophy-Limerick line (at Roscrea and Nenagh?) and on the Limerick-Waterford line (at Tipperary and Clonmel). However, I'm open to correction as my last visit was in September 2022.

 

[Railsigns]

There are no semaphore signals remaining in Northern Ireland....other than at museums and heritage lines.

What about Portrush?

 

[snowball]

Does NR have a specific target to get rid of semaphores and mechanical interlockings?

Others will know better than me but I think in the past such targets have been notable for slippage.

 

[Western 52]

We had a thread a couple of years ago on where the last semaphore signals might be. This generated some useful discussion, but is closed now.

Where will the last semaphore signals be on the national network?

I wouldn't be surprised if Harrogate-York ends up being some of the last semaphores. A fair amount of signalling work converting to electric tokenless block yet the semaphores still remain. There is a distant at Cattal on the down (Harrogate) direction that is definitely not fixed, but...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Danfilm007]

There used to be a couple on the Mid Cheshire line between Plumley and Northwich

 

[D6130]

What about Portrush?

Ah yes....I'd forgotten about Portrush, although I haven't been there for more than ten years.

 

[Hornet]

Ah yes....I'd forgotten about Portrush, although I haven't been there for more than ten years.

Portrush September 2018. Station was being rebuilt for the Open Golf Championship.

 

[172007]

Out of interest, do any semaphores survive in Ireland? I remember plenty there in the 80s and 90s, but I know they've done a lot of resignalling since.

From what traincrew on the Snowhill lines are aware the last box's planned to go are Shrewsbury and Worcester area and are sto be resignalled early 2040's.