Remaining Effects of Covid

[duncanp]

....the inquiry KC added that there seemed to have been very little thought about a national lockdown and a failure to think through the consequences for education and the economy....

I really hope that the consequences for education and the economy, plus the effect on people's mental health of being cooped up indoors for months on end, are considered as part of the enquiry.

What I fear will happen is that the conclusion of the enquiry will be that we should have locked down sooner, harder and for longer, and Sir Keir Starmer, who may well be the Prime Minister by the time the findings are published, will enthusiastically put all the recommendations into law without questioning them.

Part of the problem with the pandemic was that Boris Johnson accepted the scaremongering data and "modelling" from the likes of SAGE without questioning the assumptions on which the "modelling" were based.

Boris decided lockdown policy on the basis of predictions which cynically presented the worst case scenario as the most likely scenario, and were later shown to be wildly inaccurate compared to reality.

 

[JamesT]

I'm not sure why it would have been given thought though. Before we all decided simultaneously to copy China, there was a total consensus in public health that 'quarantining the healthy' was something that you simply didn't even consider. Why spend a lot of time and money planning for something you're not going to do? For whatever reason, that all changed over the course of a few weeks in March 2020.

It would be most interesting if the enquiry would examine what totally changed the course of the government between March 12th and March 16th 2020, when it suddenly decided to throw away its pandemic plan and go with something utterly different and crazy. But I strongly suspect that's something we're never going to find out the proper answer to.

I'm not sure if the timeline quite matches up, but my recollection is in the weeks before the first lockdown we were seeing what was happening in Italy. Pictures of corpses piled up waiting to go to the crematoria and that they were introducing increasingly harsh measures to control it.
The thought of that repeating in the UK was probably quite enough to make the politicians receptive to suggestions of locking down.

 

[duncanp]

I'm not sure if the timeline quite matches up, but my recollection is in the weeks before the first lockdown we were seeing what was happening in Italy. Pictures of corpses piled up waiting to go to the crematoria and that they were introducing increasingly harsh measures to control it.
The thought of that repeating in the UK was probably quite enough to make the politicians receptive to suggestions of locking down.

One of the issues with COVID which will probably never be resolved is that there is a widespread suspicion that China knew about COVID well before it notified the rest of the world, and in particular, the WHO, of the disease and its symptoms.

The article below lends weight to that theory

More athletes claim they contracted COVID-19 at Military World Games in Wuhan

More athletes have revealed that they fell ill during the Military World Games in October when the Chinese city of Wuhan hosted the event months befor...

www.insidethegames.biz

More athletes claim they contracted COVID-19 at Military World Games in Wuhan​

More athletes have revealed that they fell ill during the Military World Games in October when the Chinese city of Wuhan hosted the event months before the COVID-19 outbreak.
Taking place in October, the allegations came two months before the first identification of COVID-19 by China.

Close to 10,000 competitors competed at the Games from over 100 countries during the nine-day event.

Speaking to the Mail on Sunday, German volleyball player Jacqueline Brock alleged that she got COVID-19 despite no cases being reported until December.

She said: "After a few days, some athletes from my team got ill, I got sick in the last two days.

"I have never felt so sick, either it was a very bad cold or COVID-19, I think it was COVID-19."

It comes after French pentathlete Elodie Clouvel claimed she and her partner Valentin Belaud contracted the virus at the Games.

Italian fencer Matteo Tagliarol also said everyone in his apartment in the city fell ill with symptoms "that looked like those of COVID-19".

Luxembourg triathlete Oliver Gorges said he fell ill with a flu and is now to undergo an antibody test this week to see if he has COVID-19.

He claimed that Wuhan was a "ghost town" when he went for a cycle in the city, while also saying that he had his temperature recorded on arrival at the airport while athletes were told to wash their hands when entering the canteen.

However, Swedish pentathlete Melina Westerberg said that many of her compatriots were sick at the Games, but none tested positive for the virus claiming: "It was just a coincidence, we all felt safe."

After all the disease is known as COVID-19, but the WHO were not notified about it until the end of January 2020, some three months after the World Military Games. The returning athletes provided ample opportunity for the virus to spread round the world.

If China had notified the WHO sooner, then perhaps measures could have been taken earlier to limit the spread of the virus, ans those measures might not have been so severe and long lasting.

 

[JamesT]

After all the disease is known as COVID-19, but the WHO were not notified about it until the end of January 2020, some three months after the World Military Games. The returning athletes provided ample opportunity for the virus to spread round the world.

If China had notified the WHO sooner, then perhaps measures could have been taken earlier to limit the spread of the virus, ans those measures might not have been so severe and long lasting.

The WHO were notified 31st December 2019, which is why it was given the name Covid-19, though at the point it was merely a set of pneumonia cases of unknown cause in Wuhan.

Archived: WHO Timeline - COVID-19

31 Dec 2019China reported a cluster of cases of in Wuhan, Hubei Province. A novel coronavirus was eventually identified.1 January 2020WHO had set up the IMST (Incident Management Support Team) across the three levels of the organization: headquarters, regional headquarters and country level...

www.who.int

 

[Mikw]

Many people on these forums other than myself have used the term "face nappies" in a pejorative sense to convey their complete and utter contempt for these wretched and ineffective things, and the nonsensical rules that were put in place around their use during the pandemic.

In a free and open forum people should have the right to express their opinions.

While i agree with you on free speech i cannot agree with the denigration of those who choose to wear face masks, they may not be wrong and shouldn't be ridiculed for choosing to do so

 

[MikeWM]

I'm not sure if the timeline quite matches up, but my recollection is in the weeks before the first lockdown we were seeing what was happening in Italy. Pictures of corpses piled up waiting to go to the crematoria and that they were introducing increasingly harsh measures to control it.
The thought of that repeating in the UK was probably quite enough to make the politicians receptive to suggestions of locking down.

But that's the whole point of having done your research before you hit a crisis - which we had actually done, rather well, and determined that 'quarantining of the healthy' (along with all sorts of other measures, such as shutting down borders and community masking) weren't things that would work - and then when the crisis hits you go 'we have a plan for this, yes it isn't going to be pleasant for a short while, but we're sticking to best practice'.

What you don't do is tell everyone to panic and introduce crazy ideas that had explicitly been ruled out previously as things that do more harm than good, simply in order to be seen to be doing something.

The only country that more-or-less stuck to the plan was Sweden, and they've emerged with the lowest excess deaths over the 2020-2022 period in Europe, which strongly implies that the research we did before 2020 was right and we should have stuck to it.

 

[Mikw]

Happy to say that on my last visit to Hospital and my GP surgery for appointments that wearing of Masks isn’t mandatory any longer

Same here, it's now personal choice. With low cases it should be

 

[duncanp]

While i agree with you on free speech i cannot agree with the denigration of those who choose to wear face masks, they may not be wrong and shouldn't be ridiculed for choosing to do so

True, but then those who choose not to, or were unable to, wear face coverings shouldn't be ridiculed or abused either, and there was plenty of such abuse dished out during the pandemic.

 

[Mikw]

True, but then those who choose not to, or were unable to, wear face coverings shouldn't be ridiculed or abused either, and there was plenty of such abuse dished out during the pandemic.

It's wrong either way, we seem to be encouraged now to blame each other for everything rather than those in charge

 

[duncanp]

It's wrong either way, we seem to be encouraged now to blame each other for everything rather than those in charge

When I used the terminology that I did, I was criticising the face coverings themselves, not the people who chose to wear them.

Government messaging at the height of the pandemic suggested that face coverings "..keep you safe..." whereas in reality the flimsy medical grade coverings that most people used did nothing of the kind.

 

[gswindale]

When I used the terminology that I did, I was criticising the face coverings themselves, not the people who chose to wear them.

Government messaging at the height of the pandemic suggested that face coverings "..keep you safe..." whereas in reality the flimsy medical grade coverings that most people used did nothing of the kind.

Well, I don't know what happened, but something during 2020 certainly kept me safe.

Despite having a stonking cold at the start of March 2020, that was about the only time during the year I was ill. Unlike the following years when I've picked up Covid, had numerous colds, been diagnosed with pneumonia and been on antibiotics.

I would definitely say that on a personal physical health perspective, that it was a benefit to me during lockdown. Maybe not mentally - what with having a 9-12 month old at home who I couldn't do much with, but physically I was definitely much healthier than I've been more recently!

 

[Darandio]

Well, I don't know what happened, but something during 2020 certainly kept me safe.

Despite having a stonking cold at the start of March 2020, that was about the only time during the year I was ill. Unlike the following years when I've picked up Covid, had numerous colds, been diagnosed with pneumonia and been on antibiotics.

I would definitely say that on a personal physical health perspective, that it was a benefit to me during lockdown. Maybe not mentally - what with having a 9-12 month old at home who I couldn't do much with, but physically I was definitely much healthier than I've been more recently!

And could the subsequent years of illness be down to us being in that protective bubble which in turn reduced our long built up immunity to certain conditions? It's a genuine question, i've seen many other people say they've been ill much more since we were all back to normal again.

 

[matt]

People's views on masks are well known so can we please not have another debate on the effectiveness or otherwise of masks, thanks

 

[yorkie]

I had covid less than a month ago and it annoyed me so much I looked into getting a booster dose. Unfortunately, not everyone is entitled to it anymore. It's only those aged 75 or over or those in various risk groups.

Your exposure to the virus means you have effectively had a booster.

Lastly. There are many strains of covid. The virus mutates extremely easy.

There is only one strain of Sars-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes Covid-19.

While this remains so, and there isn't any evidence it won't, there isn't likely to be any need for anyone to be 'boosted' except under exceptional circumstances, such as those who are immunocompromised.

It's a very different story compared to Influenza, which has multiple strains and mutates much more rapidly than Coronaviruses do.

There's a lot of misinformation out there in terms of covid...

Very true!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2023 ==


Moving onto recent news articles related to the inquiry...

The following artcile is surprisingly balanced for a BBC article; the BBC do appear to be redeeming themselves somewhat lately.

I'd scroll down to just under the graph to get the best parts of the article; here is an extract:

Covid inquiry: The questions we really want answers to

As a massive public inquiry in the UK opens to the public, we asked key people what questions they have.

www.bbc.co.uk

. As restrictions were imposed on the UK, at the start of the pandemic, the government's chief medical adviser, Prof Sir Chris Whitty, warned about the indirect costs. They have been huge.
Children were unable to attend school, businesses were closed, non-Covid treatment delayed and mixing banned, stopping everything from socialising to seeing dying loved ones in their final days.

 

[Strathclyder]

And could the subsequent years of illness be down to us being in that protective bubble which in turn reduced our long built up immunity to certain conditions? It's a genuine question, i've seen many other people say they've been ill much more since we were all back to normal again.

I remember getting hit with one hell of a 'freshers flu' (that was the term in use at the time to describe what had hit me like a sack of bricks) after coming out of isolation in the summer of 2021. Literally felt like death warmed up (having asthma doesn't help at all), but the actual frequency and severity of my illnesses in this respect seems to be little changed from the year leading up to March 2020.

For the record, the first time I caught COVID was in March/April 2022 along with the rest of my immediate family, after getting my 3 shots between June and December the previous year, testing positive just days before my 26th birthday. Sod's law in full effect.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm not sure if the timeline quite matches up, but my recollection is in the weeks before the first lockdown we were seeing what was happening in Italy. Pictures of corpses piled up waiting to go to the crematoria and that they were introducing increasingly harsh measures to control it.

Does anyone have a link to this? I don't remember any pictures of corpses piling up.

 

[Richard Scott]

Bit late on this thread so if already been said then apologies but effect on young people and their mental health. I know there are similar issues with adults but seems to almost have been overlooked. I do hope enquiries raise this but doubt they will.

 

[yorkie]

Bit late on this thread so if already been said then apologies but effect on young people and their mental health. I know there are similar issues with adults but seems to almost have been overlooked. I do hope enquiries raise this but doubt they will.

It does appear to be being raised but I am sure the pro-lockdown brigade will be keen for their alternative view to be heard.

It will be interesting to see the outcome; either it will be wishy-washy and not come to any difficult conclusions (which would be a huge disappointment and undermine the whole point of it) or it will either really upset one group or another!

I'll be furious if the inquiry doesn't conclude that we should not have implemented harsh lockdowns, school closures etc.

 

[JamesT]

Does anyone have a link to this? I don't remember any pictures of corpses piling up.

Italy’s Coronavirus Death Toll Is So High That One City’s Crematorium Can’t Keep Up

Bergamo, in northern Italy, called in the military to transport its dead to crematoriums around the country.

www.vice.com

Coronavirus: Italian army called in as crematorium struggles to cope with deaths

At least 93 people have died after testing positive for coronavirus in the north Italian city.

news.sky.com

Are a couple of examples of stories from that time.

 

[MikeWM]

I'll be furious if the inquiry doesn't conclude that we should not have implemented harsh lockdowns, school closures etc.

The reports from day 1 don't fill me with confidence, nor the fact that they are strongly recommending taking an LFT before attending (!). Carl Heneghan isn't happy:

https://trusttheevidence.substack.com/p/the-hallet-enquiry-jumping-to-conclusions

Kick-off assumptions show that the Inquiry may already have bought the Government story

...
This doesn’t bode well - it means the Inquiry team are already making assumptions about what works and what doesn’t, introducing bias before they get started on taking evidence from witnesses.

There needs to be a clear statement of who made this decision on what basis - otherwise, what happens next in the inquiry is immaterial.

Sadly, I see no reason to change my mind on this from what I wrote over 2 years ago:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ayor-candidate-and-covid.215331/#post-5048283

At some point there will be an enquiry into the government handling of Covid. The result seems inevitable to me - it will report that lockdown was too late and should have happened earlier as a 'precautionary measure'.

The only 'silver lining' that I see is that the inquiry is scheduled to take so long that we may be too old to care by the time it gets around to reporting.

 

[infobleep]

I listened to some of the opening statements on the handling of covid today.

One comment that caught my ear was that covid was different from the flu. With the flu, there isn't any point in isolating because it spreads so fast but as covid takes longer there is.

It was something along those lines.

I don't think I've heard anyone say this before.

It was around 11:17 this morning, as I was watching it delayed on the BBC News Site and I remembered the time.

If I misheard I am sure someone can correct me.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Very rare and clearly overlooked on hold message on my housing associations repairs phone line today. Basically along the lines of in light of covid-19 restrictions we are now offering remote video call inspections and assessments for your property repairs. After I dealt with the issue about which I had found I mentioned this to the person on the other end who emailed her boss immediately

 

[gswindale]

Very rare and clearly overlooked on hold message on my housing associations repairs phone line today. Basically along the lines of in light of covid-19 restrictions we are now offering remote video call inspections and assessments for your property repairs. After I dealt with the issue about which I had found I mentioned this to the person on the other end who emailed her boss immediately

Are they still offering remote video inspection and assessments?

If so, then I guess the hold message just needs updating to say "Did you know we can offer..."

If they don't, then I would be asking the question why not? For some issues, it is surely easier to have somebody who can view the problem remotely and get the process underway to fix it within 10 minutes than it would to have to send somebody out to investigate physically? They can then get say 5 cases dealt with in an hour as opposed to maybe 1 or 2 due to time wasted driving around.

I've done that sort of thing with our plumber pre Covid which meant he could give us a temporary fix via a video WhatsApp thus enabling him to get on with his other jobs in progress and fit us in when convenient.

 

[danm14]

Almost three and a half years on, both the email and text message notification that an eBay click and collect order is ready for collection still bears the instruction to "please follow social distancing guidelines".

 

[ainsworth74]

We've just received a letter today from HM Courts & Tribunals at work which very much proclaims that a telephone hearing has been arranged as part of the response to the "...novel coronavirus (COVID-19)". Need to update their templates a bit as telephone hearings have just become a normalised part of the process now rather than the special response it was back then. Shame really the clerk that sent the letter is one of my favourites but they clearly need to update their template letters! Then again it was a response to Covid-19 so I guess from a certain point of view the letter isn't wholly inaccurate

 

[Blindtraveler]

Yes I'm glad to say they do, a few housing associations are I think doing it now but still not enough and it turns out from a follow-up email received today that the manager in question thought that the telephone system had been updated as they received a global staff email saying that all references to covid-19 had been removed from the menus with the exception of if you have covid-19 and I expecting a visit from us please let us know and alter it.

Are they still offering remote video inspection and assessments?

If so, then I guess the hold message just needs updating to say "Did you know we can offer..."

If they don't, then I would be asking the question why not? For some issues, it is surely easier to have somebody who can view the problem remotely and get the process underway to fix it within 10 minutes than it would to have to send somebody out to investigate physically? They can then get say 5 cases dealt with in an hour as opposed to maybe 1 or 2 due to time wasted driving around.

I've done that sort of thing with our plumber pre Covid which meant he could give us a temporary fix via a video WhatsApp thus enabling him to get on with his other jobs in progress and fit us in when convenient.

 

[MikeWM]

Carl Heneghan and Tom Jefferson review the first week of the Covid enquiry. Tl/dr - they're not impressed.

https://trusttheevidence.substack.com/p/the-hallet-inquiry-highlights-of

Science and evidence are unlikely to play any serious part in what follows as the lead has assigned causality. Basic null hypotheses or questions such as “was the UK unprepared, and if so, why” have already been answered and bypassed.
...
Perhaps we are thinking of a fair, logical and honest process. We see little sign of that so far. To be prepared, you must know what works and what doesn’t based on what evidence is available.

The whole thing is worth a read.

 

[duncanp]

Carl Heneghan and Tom Jefferson review the first week of the Covid enquiry. Tl/dr - they're not impressed.

https://trusttheevidence.substack.com/p/the-hallet-inquiry-highlights-of


The whole thing is worth a read.

A lot of people have their own agenda with regard to the COVID enquiry, as in the BMA official today who blamed David Cameron's government and austerity.

 

[MikeWM]

A lot of people have their own agenda with regard to the COVID enquiry, as in the BMA official today who blamed David Cameron's government and austerity.

Many of those opposed to Brexit seem to want to blame Covid on that too, as mentioned in Heneghan/Jefferson's article. Which seems rather a ludicrous stretch, whatever one thinks of Brexit.

 

[Mag_seven]

A lot of people have their own agenda with regard to the COVID enquiry, as in the BMA official today who blamed David Cameron's government and austerity.

The BMA is the doctors trade union so therefore cannot be regarded as politically unbiased in all of this.

Will Sturgeon and Drakeford be called to give evidence at this enquiry?