Rejected without feedback - why? Does anyone know the real reason?

[LRV3004]

I recently applied for a Trainee Conductor vacancy with Arriva Trains Wales at Crewe and Chester. On paper, I was the ideal candidate as I was previously a Conductor with Northern Rail and currently work as a driver with Metrolink. Despite putting everything into the application and really selling myself to them, my application didn't even get beyond the first stage and I was told I couldn't be given feedback.
I can only assume that the reason for rejection is due to the fact that I live in Manchester and possibly therefore too far away from the advertised depots, although there was nothing specifying distances on the vacancy ad. Can anyone shed any light on this so I know whether or not to bother applying for any future vacancies? Thanks!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I recently applied for a Trainee Conductor vacancy with Arriva Trains Wales at Crewe and Chester. On paper, I was the ideal candidate as I was previously a Conductor with Northern Rail and currently work as a driver with Metrolink. Despite putting everything into the application and really selling myself to them, my application didn't even get beyond the first stage and I was told I couldn't be given feedback.
I can only assume that the reason for rejection is due to the fact that I live in Manchester and possibly therefore too far away from the advertised depots, although there was nothing specifying distances on the vacancy ad. Can anyone shed any light on this so I know whether or not to bother applying for any future vacancies? Thanks!

Could it be the fact you have been a conductor once, left went onto something else and now want to go back?

They may think you might leave again after been put through all the cost and time of training etc? Just my thoughts.

What would make you stay longer this time?

 

[RJ]

Also, nowadays experience alone isn't always the deciding factor - it's personal attributes and whether the way you present your strengths and values in the application is compatible with what they are looking for. If it's for a trainee position, they will be looking for the "right" kind of person.

 

[Jonfun]

I got through to an interview with ATW and they wouldn't give me feedback, so it won't be anything personal.

The only tip I can give you is look at the bit in the advert where it tells you what you need to demonstrate, work through each clearly giving a couple of meaty examples of evidence for each that they can't miss.

 

[LRV3004]

I got through to an interview with ATW and they wouldn't give me feedback, so it won't be anything personal.

The only tip I can give you is look at the bit in the advert where it tells you what you need to demonstrate, work through each clearly giving a couple of meaty examples of evidence for each that they can't miss.

There wasn't even a section on the form for this! Just filled in the five sections about personal information, qualifications, references etc. along with a personal statement about what I can bring to the company etc. but my application was rejected after "careful consideration"!

 

[Greenback]

I use the personal statement section for that, and I've had quite a few interviews with ATW.

 

[LRV3004]

Could it be the fact you have been a conductor once, left went onto something else and now want to go back?

They may think you might leave again after been put through all the cost and time of training etc? Just my thoughts.

What would make you stay longer this time?

My post as a Conductor with Northern was over ten years ago and I left after some unfortunate events in my personal life. I went on to have a successful 7-year career with Stagecoach as a bus driver before joining Metrolink in June 2013. While I enjoy it there, I would like to return to a Conductor role, but I would prefer a different operator where I have more time between stops to carry out my duties! Northern was a bit too "stop-start" and I found myself getting stressed out being stuck issuing a ticket while in a station and having to run back to do the doors! However I'm ten years older and ten years wiser, so I would definitely stay if I was successful at getting on! Unfortunately, living in Manchester and not wanting to work for Northern again does limit my options I guess. Maybe I should just swallow my pride and look at going back there in the future!
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I use the personal statement section for that, and I've had quite a few interviews with ATW.

I'll bear that in mind for any future applications! If I don't have any luck after that then it must be geographical!

 

[Jonfun]

There wasn't even a section on the form for this! Just filled in the five sections about personal information, qualifications, references etc. along with a personal statement about what I can bring to the company etc. but my application was rejected after "careful consideration"!

Your examples need to go in the personal statement bit - that's the bit the recruiting manager uses to mark you against the criteria. Even if it's already in your previous jobs bit, clearly expand on your experience in the statement and why it's relevant etc.

 

[387star]

The fact you got stressed in your previous job simply handling tickets and doors when doors are more important anyway doesn't fill me with confidence....

Plus I don't think some my managers like people with previous rail experience em just saying...

I would like to return to a Conductor role, but I would prefer a different operator where I have more time between stops to carry out my duties! Northern was a bit too "stop-start" and I found myself getting stressed out being stuck issuing a ticket while in a station and having to run back to do the doors!

 

[TDK]

I recently applied for a Trainee Conductor vacancy with Arriva Trains Wales at Crewe and Chester. On paper, I was the ideal candidate as I was previously a Conductor with Northern Rail and currently work as a driver with Metrolink. Despite putting everything into the application and really selling myself to them, my application didn't even get beyond the first stage and I was told I couldn't be given feedback.
I can only assume that the reason for rejection is due to the fact that I live in Manchester and possibly therefore too far away from the advertised depots, although there was nothing specifying distances on the vacancy ad. Can anyone shed any light on this so I know whether or not to bother applying for any future vacancies? Thanks!

In your opinion you was the ideal candidate but not in the view of the assessor reading your application, it could be location but I think that the main reason you didn't get the role as there must have been more suitable candidates.

 

[red2005]

The fact you got stressed in your previous job simply handling tickets and doors when doors are more important anyway doesn't fill me with confidence....

Plus I don't think some my managers like people with previous rail experience em just saying...

I would like to return to a Conductor role, but I would prefer a different operator where I have more time between stops to carry out my duties! Northern was a bit too "stop-start" and I found myself getting stressed out being stuck issuing a ticket while in a station and having to run back to do the doors!

i will second this! if you had put something like that in your application it would be instantly rejected i'd of thought mate!........selling tickets will always come a distant second to safety!......now i'm not saying you HAVE put anything like that word for word in your application as don't think many would be that daft but if you had put something that could be taken that way i wouldn't of thought you'd get that far with your application.

knowing the company etc i would definitely think you living in manchester is a factor

 

[plastictaffy]

While I enjoy it there, I would like to return to a Conductor role, but I would prefer a different operator where I have more time between stops to carry out my duties! Northern was a bit too "stop-start" and I found myself getting stressed out being stuck issuing a ticket while in a station and having to run back to do the doors!

Occupational hazard, I'm afraid. It's about time management. Bear in mind that Northern's new units are similar to class 321's - as in you can only do the doors from a few places, so you'll spend a lot of time running back and forth. Are you sure the Conductor role is for you??

As others have said, the most important part of the job is the SC side. We have guys at my place - perhaps half a dozen who absolutely hammer the tickets, and at least 3 of them have been D3'd in the last 18 months. If you're having to run back to do the doors halfway through selling the ticket, why try selling it in the first place?? Don't break your back, you'll get no thanks for the extra revenue, nor will you get any thanks for a wrong side release or releasing when the driver has stopped short.

If I was you, I'd have a serious look at whether the job really is for you. 10 years is an awful long time, and things WILL have changed in that time. I've been on 2 years and I have seen a lot of changes in procedures, track layouts and agreements. Take the rose tinted glasses off, my friend.

 

[TDK]

Occupational hazard, I'm afraid. It's about time management. Bear in mind that Northern's new units are similar to class 321's - as in you can only do the doors from a few places, so you'll spend a lot of time running back and forth. Are you sure the Conductor role is for you??

As others have said, the most important part of the job is the SC side. We have guys at my place - perhaps half a dozen who absolutely hammer the tickets, and at least 3 of them have been D3'd in the last 18 months. If you're having to run back to do the doors halfway through selling the ticket, why try selling it in the first place?? Don't break your back, you'll get no thanks for the extra revenue, nor will you get any thanks for a wrong side release or releasing when the driver has stopped short.

If I was you, I'd have a serious look at whether the job really is for you. 10 years is an awful long time, and things WILL have changed in that time. I've been on 2 years and I have seen a lot of changes in procedures, track layouts and agreements. Take the rose tinted glasses off, my friend.

There is nothing more frustrating for a driver than making up 2 minutes to wait 2 minutes for the guard to release the doors, I personally think if the job is that stressful the driver should open and shut the doors , this is a safer method of working and would take the stress out of the guards job and also make the company more money in revenue. However if the guard does their job properly this would not be an issue.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

There wasn't even a section on the form for this! Just filled in the five sections about personal information, qualifications, references etc. along with a personal statement about what I can bring to the company etc. but my application was rejected after "careful consideration"!

If you've been rejected before even the interview stage, you may have been "sifted" out of the running by a computer program known as an "applicant tracking system"!

Given the vast number of people applying for jobs online there days, many companies now use this software which scans your application, searches for certain buzzwords or phrases and only passes you onto the next stage if you score enough "hits". I have no idea if Northern Rail use such software but it's certainly a possibility and far more efficient than employing someone to manually read through hundreds of CVs.

 

[DarloRich]

The fact you got stressed in your previous job simply handling tickets and doors when doors are more important anyway doesn't fill me with confidence....

Plus I don't think some my managers like people with previous rail experience em just saying...

I would like to return to a Conductor role, but I would prefer a different operator where I have more time between stops to carry out my duties! Northern was a bit too "stop-start" and I found myself getting stressed out being stuck issuing a ticket while in a station and having to run back to do the doors!

Surely that was just a statement to offer context to this thread rather than a lift from the application form? If it was from the form the reasons for rejection should be quite clear.

Is there no one you can ask to look over your application? Can you ask a union rep via metrolink for instance?

 

[Greenback]

Surely that was just a statement to offer context to this thread rather than a lift from the application form? If it was from the form the reasons for rejection should be quite clear.

I agree, I think that there is unlikely to be any correlation between the application and what has been posted here. I hope so, anyway.

 

[plastictaffy]

There is nothing more frustrating for a driver than making up 2 minutes to wait 2 minutes for the guard to release the doors, I personally think if the job is that stressful the driver should open and shut the doors , this is a safer method of working and would take the stress out of the guards job and also make the company more money in revenue. However if the guard does their job properly this would not be an issue.

I find there's nothing more frustrating than getting a nice on time despatch out of the way, just for the driver to then go on a deliberate go-slow because he's gonna be late for his next service, and is deliberately going to be later to "prove a point" to the company.

Also irritates me that drivers have to spend 5 minutes gassing at handover points instead of just swapping keys and carrying on!!!!

 

[Scotrail84]

There is nothing more frustrating for a driver than making up 2 minutes to wait 2 minutes for the guard to release the doors, I personally think if the job is that stressful the driver should open and shut the doors , this is a safer method of working and would take the stress out of the guards job and also make the company more money in revenue. However if the guard does their job properly this would not be an issue.

There are just as many incidents with doors/stop shorts involving doo trains than there is with conductor operated services. Some with the doo trains go unreported though as its just the driver on board.

 

[red2005]

I find there's nothing more frustrating than getting a nice on time despatch out of the way, just for the driver to then go on a deliberate go-slow because he's gonna be late for his next service, and is deliberately going to be later to "prove a point" to the company.

Also irritates me that drivers have to spend 5 minutes gassing at handover points instead of just swapping keys and carrying on!!!!

are you aware that this '5 minutes gassing' is generally because drivers are exchanging important information relating to traction or safety of the line issues?? i've been a guard myself and i just wish that 2 or 3 guards that i'd taken trains over from and basically been shafted by because they'd not told me about passengers with needs or technical issues with the train had given me those 5 minutes instead of basically sprinting away from the train because it was their last leg!!

i'd rather have a the 5 minute delay and have a safe incident free trip than worry about reporting delays personally!

difference i have found since i have been in training is that drivers will stick together and give each other a little professional courtesy where a lot of guards look after themselves and don't give 2 hoots about their colleagues!!
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There are just as many incidents with doors/stop shorts involving doo trains than there is with conductor operated services. Some with the doo trains go unreported though as its just the driver on board.

where is the evidence to support this??? or are you going on hearsay???

 

[plastictaffy]

are you aware that this '5 minutes gassing' is

Mm-hmm. Most drivers just swap keys and say a few words. Last week, I rolled into a handover point, and witnessed them laughing over something on the one driver's phone.

 

[AndyN]

I know exactly where your coming from. Ive been trying to get back on the Railway with Northern Rail and don't mind starting as a cleaner so have applied for the Train Presentation Operative jobs with Northern Rail. The first time I applied I got a interview but I know where I went wrong there. Ive since applied about 6 more times and each time got a thanks but no thanks. What makes it more baffling for myself is I worked for 2 monthes at Leeds Station on Nights through the agency for Northern Rail to give myself a advantage and since then applied for 2 TPO Jobs and still got the thanks but no thanks. I travelled from warrington to Leeds out of my own pocket to get the experience to gain at least a interview as I now have the experience. I also got my Northern Rail PTS valid for 2 years while I was there. In addition I have 9 years experience with British Rail from 1984-1993 so im starting to look at conspiracy theries, i.e, its who you know, not what you know.
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And ive asked for feedback each time as I feel I fit every criteria for the Train Cleaning jobs and while agreeing no one has a divine right to any job, to me if you have Railway experience and most defenetly if you have worked for the company you are applying to even if via a agency doing the job you applied for, that should at least guarantee you the interview. That's why I want the feedback especially as I had a interview the first time I applied and 6 or 7 knockbacks since. It is a Cleaning job ive been applying for, not Train Driver lol. The only thing I can think of is the unemployment gap on my CV

 

[TDK]

I know exactly where your coming from. Ive been trying to get back on the Railway with Northern Rail and don't mind starting as a cleaner so have applied for the Train Presentation Operative jobs with Northern Rail. The first time I applied I got a interview but I know where I went wrong there. Ive since applied about 6 more times and each time got a thanks but no thanks. What makes it more baffling for myself is I worked for 2 monthes at Leeds Station on Nights through the agency for Northern Rail to give myself a advantage and since then applied for 2 TPO Jobs and still got the thanks but no thanks. I travelled from warrington to Leeds out of my own pocket to get the experience to gain at least a interview as I now have the experience. I also got my Northern Rail PTS valid for 2 years while I was there. In addition I have 9 years experience with British Rail from 1984-1993 so im starting to look at conspiracy theries, i.e, its who you know, not what you know.
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And ive asked for feedback each time as I feel I fit every criteria for the Train Cleaning jobs and while agreeing no one has a divine right to any job, to me if you have Railway experience and most defenetly if you have worked for the company you are applying to even if via a agency doing the job you applied for, that should at least guarantee you the interview. That's why I want the feedback especially as I had a interview the first time I applied and 6 or 7 knockbacks since. It is a Cleaning job ive been applying for, not Train Driver lol. The only thing I can think of is the unemployment gap on my CV

Nothing to do with that, obviously your application was not as good as someone else's. There is obviously something wrong with you application to get knocked back that many times.
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I find there's nothing more frustrating than getting a nice on time despatch out of the way, just for the driver to then go on a deliberate go-slow because he's gonna be late for his next service, and is deliberately going to be later to "prove a point" to the company.

Also irritates me that drivers have to spend 5 minutes gassing at handover points instead of just swapping keys and carrying on!!!!

So you know the driver is on a deliberate go slow? You cannot see what the driver is seeing so to be fair that is just an opinion unless the driver has admitted to it and if they did they are a crap driver.
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Also irritates me that drivers have to spend 5 minutes gassing at handover points instead of just swapping keys and carrying on!!!!

And guards don't? Don't make me laugh

 

[AndyN]

On the Northern Website you can view past applications and apart from a tweak here and there theres not hardly any difference from when I applied 11 monthes ago and got a interview straight away and in addition to that since then I have worked 2 Monthes via the agency for Northern rail so yes, quite rightly in these cases, feedback would be good. If going for a job like Driver or Conductor I can understand them vetting really strongly but im talking Train Presentation Operative...(Cleaner) Has ive said the only thing I can put my finger on is my CV was full when I got invited for a interview last year, whereas now with the competiveness of the job market, apart from the 2 monthes stint at Leeds, ive been Unemployed. What's disappointing me though is I paid my own way from Warrington to Leeds to show im keen and to update my Railway experience, passed the PTS, and still I get knockbacks. It is bemusing to say the least and im pretty convinced getting on the Railway is who you know, now what you know. I got on British Rail from leaving school and that was because my Grandad was in a good job and knew the bosses. Im beginning to think I wasted my time paying my way doing the 2 month stint. Who knows, it could be the unemployment gap on my CV

 

[kelv]

I know exactly where your coming from. Ive been trying to get back on the Railway with Northern Rail and don't mind starting as a cleaner so have applied for the Train Presentation Operative jobs with Northern Rail. The first time I applied I got a interview but I know where I went wrong there. Ive since applied about 6 more times and each time got a thanks but no thanks. What makes it more baffling for myself is I worked for 2 monthes at Leeds Station on Nights through the agency for Northern Rail to give myself a advantage and since then applied for 2 TPO Jobs and still got the thanks but no thanks. I travelled from warrington to Leeds out of my own pocket to get the experience to gain at least a interview as I now have the experience. I also got my Northern Rail PTS valid for 2 years while I was there. In addition I have 9 years experience with British Rail from 1984-1993 so im starting to look at conspiracy theries, i.e, its who you know, not what you know.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And ive asked for feedback each time as I feel I fit every criteria for the Train Cleaning jobs and while agreeing no one has a divine right to any job, to me if you have Railway experience and most defenetly if you have worked for the company you are applying to even if via a agency doing the job you applied for, that should at least guarantee you the interview. That's why I want the feedback especially as I had a interview the first time I applied and 6 or 7 knockbacks since. It is a Cleaning job ive been applying for, not Train Driver lol. The only thing I can think of is the unemployment gap on my CV

Having a gap through unemployment shouldn't necessarily hinder someone with the economic climate as it has been for a while.

What agencies deal with work on the Railways & what kind of work, if you dont mind me asking ?
I live just outside warrington myself.

 

[AndyN]

I ent through Northern Recruitment Group as they were mentioned on this forum and I registered my intrest. They offered me Leeds and even though to far I took it on temporary as thought it would be advantageous on my CV when applying for these jobs. Apparently not. Im convinced a lot of it is who you know when applying for Railway Jobs

 

[kelv]

I ent through Northern Recruitment Group as they were mentioned on this forum and I registered my intrest. They offered me Leeds and even though to far I took it on temporary as thought it would be advantageous on my CV when applying for these jobs. Apparently not. Im convinced a lot of it is who you know when applying for Railway Jobs

Cheers. Ideally you want the work to be somewhere that you are looking to find work as well really, so that you can treat it as a very long interview/ probationary period so as to make as good an impression as possible and proive your worth to the company.

I once travelled to New Zealand for an interview that entailed me working for a week.... all at my expense & they didnt even give me my lunch never mind pay me for the work that I did during that week, and I was producing just as much as everyone else, they just wanted me to prove I could do the job. Was a bit of a 'mare with jetlag to be honest.
I got the job though.

 

[AndyN]

I was willing to start as a Cleaner then work from there but if no joy applying for Cleaning Jobs then I don't have much faith lol. Northern Recruitment Group are advertising for Train Cleaners on Universal Jobmatch at Carlisle over £8 a hour, fair way from Warrington like Leeds was, though I won't be applying if its not going to give me any advantage. I think you would stand more chance of getting on if you just come out of Prison but knew some Supervisors or Bosses

 

[red2005]

Mm-hmm. Most drivers just swap keys and say a few words. Last week, I rolled into a handover point, and witnessed them laughing over something on the one driver's phone.

heaven forbid after what could of been hours sat on their own they may choose to have a little interaction with their relief!

yes there may be drivers that drag it out but lets not make the mistake of thinking guards are angels when it comes to time keeping! I've witnessed guards upon stopping at a station that have still been in the middle of the carriage attempting to chat the birds up when the doors should have been well opened!....guards fast asleep in the back cab upon arriving at a station (something else I've witnessed)........fare/timetable enquiries on the avantix at manned stations when they should be despatching?? I'll never forget where i came from in relation to my old job but that also means I'll never forget some of the things i have witnessed and done myself as a guard!.

 

[craigybagel]

Moving aside from the inevitable drivers v guards argument....

The amount of applications received was very high. As far as I can tell, the amount who made it to the next stage wasn't. Speculation in the depots was that there are 7 vacancies between the two but it would surprise me if it's really that high.
It may well be that they're starting to clamp down on the distance rules (for what its worth, the furthest commutes I've heard of at Crewe are Macclesfield and Chester - I don't believe there's anyone coming all the way from Manchester anymore. Chester has a few from north Wales though) or it might just be that you didn't include enough mentions of the magic buzzwords, safety and customer service. Don't feel too disheartened, keep plugging away. It takes most people a few goes to get in!
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As others have said, the most important part of the job is the SC side. We have guys at my place - perhaps half a dozen who absolutely hammer the tickets, and at least 3 of them have been D3'd in the last 18 months. If you're having to run back to do the doors halfway through selling the ticket, why try selling it in the first place?? Don't break your back, you'll get no thanks for the extra revenue, nor will you get any thanks for a wrong side release or releasing when the driver has stopped short.

.

Got to ask: what's a D3?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I ent through Northern Recruitment Group as they were mentioned on this forum and I registered my intrest. They offered me Leeds and even though to far I took it on temporary as thought it would be advantageous on my CV when applying for these jobs. Apparently not. Im convinced a lot of it is who you know when applying for Railway Jobs

If Northern subsequently employ you in their own right, within a certain timescale, they will probably have to pay a fee to the agency, as they will have "introduced" you to the employer.

I suspect that's what's getting in your way.
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I recently applied for a Trainee Conductor vacancy with Arriva Trains Wales at Crewe and Chester. On paper, I was the ideal candidate as I was previously a Conductor with Northern Rail and currently work as a driver with Metrolink. Despite putting everything into the application and really selling myself to them, my application didn't even get beyond the first stage and I was told I couldn't be given feedback.
!

Nothing sinister or unusual in this. Many employers won't give feedback, as it can come back to haunt them in tribunals/ equal ops claims, etc., if someone says the wrong thing.