Refund from Uber on an Advance

[Craig2601]

Hello!

I was booked on the TfW premier service today at 16:43 on an advance ticket, however it’s been subbed for a unit instead. TFW said they would offer a refund, but only if I had bought from them directly. I bought my ticket from Uber. Is there any chance uber would offer a refund from this? Or any alternative options available. I asked if they could transfer my ticket onto the next Premier service but sadly they couldn’t do so. I’d also be willing to buy a new ticket for this, but only if my advance was able to be refunded.

Thanks.

 

[Haywain]

Hello!

I was booked on the TfW premier service today at 16:43 on an advance ticket, however it’s been subbed for a unit instead. TFW said they would offer a refund, but only if I had bought from them directly. I bought my ticket from Uber. Is there any chance uber would offer a refund from this? Or any alternative options available. I asked if they could transfer my ticket onto the next Premier service but sadly they couldn’t do so. I’d also be willing to buy a new ticket for this, but only if my advance was able to be refunded.

Thanks.

As your train was not cancelled there is no entitlement to a refund.

 

[Craig2601]

As your train was not cancelled there is no entitlement to a refund.

Thank you. Would I still be entitled to the difference between first and standard then?

 

[yorkie]

If you had bought it from the forum's ticketing site, I would certainly have been happy to ask our partners at Raileasy if they would do this for you, but as you bought from Uber, any change would need to be negotiated through Uber.

As for claiming the difference back, absolutely yes! This claim should go to TfW.

If you are able to take an earlier train, you could ask the Guard if you can transfer it for this reason; the Guards I have encountered on this route all seem really nice, so they would probably say yes. However, if you wanted to take a later train, there is a risk that they may say no, which would leave your ticket worthless (other than the difference in fares being compensable by TfW).

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you. Would I still be entitled to the difference between first and standard then?

Yes. TfW are on the hook for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hello!

I was booked on the TfW premier service today at 16:43 on an advance ticket, however it’s been subbed for a unit instead. TFW said they would offer a refund, but only if I had bought from them directly. I bought my ticket from Uber. Is there any chance uber would offer a refund from this? Or any alternative options available. I asked if they could transfer my ticket onto the next Premier service but sadly they couldn’t do so. I’d also be willing to buy a new ticket for this, but only if my advance was able to be refunded.

Thanks.

If you'd be willing to pay for a new ticket (which would probably be at a higher price due to being shorter notice) why not simply change your Advance onto that using the normal process for doing so? Bar any admin fee (I don't know what Uber charge, the standard £10 possibly?) that's the same as a refund and rebook unless the other one was cheaper?

The first-standard difference would I think only be refundable if you actually travelled, though it's fairly hard for them to 100% know that (I don't however know if they hand out evidence slips or similar when this happens, as it does happen rather a lot).

 

[yorkie]

If you'd be willing to pay for a new ticket (which would probably be at a higher price due to being shorter notice) why not simply change your Advance onto that using the normal process for doing so? Bar any admin fee (I don't know what Uber charge, the standard £10 possibly?) that's the same as a refund and rebook unless the other one was cheaper?

Yes it should be possible to change it, upon payment of the admin fee, plus any difference in fares.

The first-standard difference would I think only be refundable if you actually travelled...

Out of interest, can you link to, and quote from, where this is documented, please?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, can you link to, and quote from, where this is documented, please?

Condition 31 of the NRCoT:

31. Travelling In Standard Class Accommodation with A First Class Ticket

31.1 If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first

class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class

accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund.

The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the

price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up

fare available on the service you used. You must contact the Train Company you

travelled with to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

It is clearly stated that the refund is available if it is not provided when you travel. Ergo if you do not travel it is not an entitlement. You could of course ask, stating that you didn't travel because of that fact and thus it would be reasonable for them to offer that to you as a matter of good customer service, but it's not an entitlement per-se.

Interestingly the entitlement is the difference between the ticket you hold and the walk up Standard fare which might be nothing for an Advance anyway, though I've heard of it in fact being done by way of the difference between the two Advances at the same quota level.

The OP's best bet, unless the ticket cost less than £10, is probably just to change it to another Premier Service train as per the normal Advance change process, and perhaps make an appeal to customer services to suggest they should consider coughing up the difference given that the purpose of the journey was to experience the Premier Service.

 

[Craig2601]

If you had bought it from the forum's ticketing site, I would certainly have been happy to ask our partners at Raileasy if they would do this for you, but as you bought from Uber, any change would need to be negotiated through Uber.

I normally do as well, lesson learned for next time…!

Sadly can only get trains after my scheduled one, otherwise would have asked a guard.

If you'd be willing to pay for a new ticket (which would probably be at a higher price due to being shorter notice) why not simply change your Advance onto that using the normal process for doing so? Bar any admin fee (I don't know what Uber charge, the standard £10 possibly?) that's the same as a refund and rebook unless the other one was cheaper?

I’ve actually never gone through the process of exchanging an advance ticket before. Does it only apply to changes on the same route, or could I say change it to Cardiff >> Chester instead of my booked Cardiff >> Crewe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve actually never gone through the process of exchanging an advance ticket before. Does it only apply to changes on the same route, or could I say change it to Cardiff >> Chester instead of my booked Cardiff >> Crewe?

It has to have the same origin, destination and main TOC (if the ticket's route is TOC specific; I think if it's geographic e.g. "AP RUGBY" this doesn't apply but I'm not 100% sure). However in practice a large proportion of sites don't apply the TOC restriction, only the origin and destination one (I can't comment on Uber as I've never used it, but you can try to see) because they process a change by creating a new booking and refunding the old one rather than issuing an excess which used to be the process when most of these were sold on paper tickets.

I'd start by going to the journey and seeing if there is a change button, I assume there will be something which will either do it or tell you how to (if they are one of the retailers that has you rebook then apply for a refund on the old journey, as per what Trainsplit does).

 

[yorkie]

Condition 31 of the NRCoT:

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

It is clearly stated that the refund is available if it is not provided when you travel. Ergo if you do not travel it is not an entitlement. You could of course ask, stating that you didn't travel because of that fact and thus it would be reasonable for them to offer that to you as a matter of good customer service, but it's not an entitlement per-se.

Interestingly the entitlement is the difference between the ticket you hold and the walk up Standard fare which might be nothing for an Advance anyway, though I've heard of it in fact being done by way of the difference between the two Advances at the same quota level.

In your opinion.

However, it is not clear to me that this is the intention at all; alternative wording could easily be "but in the event that".

It is clear to me that the wording is intended to compare what is booked with what happens in reality, and the wording "when you travel" is an attempt to convey this difference.

It is not clear to me that this wording is intended to revoke the right to receiving the difference in fares, where the passenger chooses not to travel due to the lack of first class and I believe you are merely inferring this based on your own opinions with no actual experience of retailing or journey planning and based purely on your own sense of logic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In your opinion.

However, it is not clear to me that this is the intention at all; alternative wording could easily be "but in the event that".

It is clear to me that the wording is intended to compare what is booked with what happens in reality, and the wording "when you travel" is an attempt to convey this difference.

It is not clear to me that this wording is intended to revoke the right to receiving the difference in fares, where the passenger chooses not to travel due to the lack of first class and I believe you are merely inferring this based on your own opinions with no actual experience of retailing or journey planning and based purely on your own sense of logic.

We will have to agree to differ. I don't think that wording could possibly be any clearer. I'd be interested in the views of any of our resident legal experts on here as to how a Court might interpret that were a TOC to refuse to issue that refund* and the customer were to pursue it via the Small Claims Track, @tspaul26 maybe?

* In practice if the customer applied for it and didn't explicitly state if they did travel or not, simply stated that first class was not provided on that train (which is true), I suspect the TOC would just pay it. But if the ticket isn't of very low value and the OP wants to travel, a normal Advance change may remain better financially than a partial refund, particularly given that the entitlement is only to the difference to the Standard walk up fare which could be higher than said Advance or very close to it in value.

 

[Watershed]

Out of interest, can you link to, and quote from, where this is documented, please?

NRCoT 31.1 states:

If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund.
The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up fare available on the service you used. You must contact the Train Company you travelled with to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled.

I think the wording makes it pretty clear you need to have travelled.

However, as per the above condition, it is crystal clear that the claim here is with the operator (TfW), not the retailer.

NRCoT 31.1 could be interpreted as meaning that you are not entitled to a refund if your standard class Advance is less than the cheapest first class walk-up fare - or that the refund may be barely anything if the two are close in price. However, clearly that is a non-sustainable proposition under consumer and contract law - and in fairness, when I've encountered the same situation in the past, TfW have refunded me based on the equivalent standard class tier of Advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NRCoT 31.1 could be interpreted as meaning that you are not entitled to a refund if your standard class Advance is less than the cheapest first class walk-up fare - or that the refund may be barely anything if the two are close in price. However, clearly that is a non-sustainable proposition under consumer and contract law - and in fairness, when I've encountered the same situation in the past, TfW have refunded me based on the equivalent standard class tier of Advance.

That is indeed normally how it's done given that there would be no evidence of what the Standard Advance on offer at the time of purchase would have been. If booking with a TOC where this often happens, though, it might be worth screenshotting when purchasing to keep a clear record of what the equivalent Standard fare was, as if First was quite expensive and Standard very cheap providing that evidence could get the passenger a higher refund if the TOC is being reasonable about things. Obviously if the refund would be lower that way the passenger is not going to provide said evidence

Another thing to check may be if it would be cheaper to change the First Class Advance to a Standard Advance on the replacement train and pay for the on board upgrade, though this doesn't guarantee a seat. Most if not all retailers will allow a class change either way when changing an Advance, and sometimes this can be cheaper, though obviously with no guarantee of a seat; the same applies to Avanti Standard Premium. (apologies, I checked brfares.com and for this journey on-board fixed price upgrades are only available in the form of Weekend First, not on weekdays - though Seatfrog might be worth a go!).

 

[CyrusWuff]

As your train was not cancelled there is no entitlement to a refund.

Though if it's a First Class Advance, would a refund not be due given the OP's reservation "will not be honoured?"

Given there is no First Class accommodation, it's difficult to see how TfW can claim that it would be.

 

[Cantab26]

We will have to agree to differ. I don't think that wording could possibly be any clearer. I'd be interested in the views of any of our resident legal experts on here as to how a Court might interpret that were a TOC to refuse to issue that refund* and the customer were to pursue it via the Small Claims Track, @tspaul26 maybe?

Is it my soul that calls upon my name?

What is the question?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it my soul that calls upon my name?

What is the question?

Would you consider that a partial refund of a First Class ticket down to the Standard fare as per NRCoT 31.1 (quoted in post 8 above) would likely be seen by a Court (were it to be pursued that way having been refused by the TOC) as requiring the passenger to have travelled, or would having an Advance booked on the affected train be sufficient?

Thanks

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The other point to consider here is whether it was one of the recent First Class Advance Promo sale tickets - which in a lot of cases were actually cheaper than the equivalent standard class Advance fare at the time. In which case, a refund of any difference would amount to a negative amount/ zero.

Perhaps this could also be confirmed. Does the ticket type say First Class Advance or First Class Advance Promo?

 

[Craig2601]

The other point to consider here is whether it was one of the recent First Class Advance Promo sale tickets - which in a lot of cases were actually cheaper than the equivalent standard class Advance fare at the time. In which case, a refund of any difference would amount to a negative amount/ zero.

Perhaps this could also be confirmed. Does the ticket type say First Class Advance or First Class Advance Promo?

Wasn't a promotional ticket, just a normal first class advance. I (think) it wasn't too much more than standard at the time of booking, at most £10 more.

 

[MrJeeves]

Though if it's a First Class Advance, would a refund not be due given the OP's reservation "will not be honoured?"

Given there is no First Class accommodation, it's difficult to see how TfW can claim that it would be.

If I was reviewing a refund request for a ticket bought through the forum's site or TrainSplit, I would certainly agree and provide a full refund under this condition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I was reviewing a refund request for a ticket bought through the forum's site or TrainSplit, I would certainly agree and provide a full refund under this condition.

That seems reasonable. The reservation is for a seat in First Class (albeit not a specific one) and that is not being provided.

 

[MrJeeves]

That seems reasonable. The reservation is for a seat in First Class (albeit not a specific one) and that is not being provided.

Exactly my view too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might be worth getting onto a support chat with Uber quoting that NRCoT entry (30.1 I think) and asking for a refund. Given the limited time, if they refuse then changing it to another train on payment of £10+fare difference and then trying to get them to refund the £10 may be the best approach compared to risking letting the ticket lose its validity as it will in about 4 hours' time.

 

[gray1404]

Did you have a seat reservation on the Premier service? If your reservation will not be honoured and you decide not to travel you are entitled to a fee free refund.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you have a seat reservation on the Premier service? If your reservation will not be honoured and you decide not to travel you are entitled to a fee free refund.

TfW do not do seat reservations. However I think it is very easy to argue that a counted place on an Advance ticket is still a reservation, and that a reservation in First Class isn't being honoured if First Class is not present. That argument wouldn't apply to a walk-up fare, but that would be refundable against a max £5 fee anyway, and £5 probably wouldn't be worth arguing about anyway, plus it could just be used on a different train.

 

[Craig2601]

Might be worth getting onto a support chat with Uber quoting that NRCoT entry (30.1 I think) and asking for a refund. Given the limited time, if they refuse then changing it to another train on payment of £10+fare difference and then trying to get them to refund the £10 may be the best approach compared to risking letting the ticket lose its validity as it will in about 4 hours' time.

Tried Uber’s support line there, but they stated that a declassification is the TOCs responsibility, telling me there’s no way for them to refund for this case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tried Uber’s support line there, but they stated that a declassification is the TOCs responsibility, telling me there’s no way for them to refund for this case.

With only just under three hours to go so you don't have much time to escalate the issue, your option is probably now to change the ticket to another suitable departure with First Class. You could ask them for a deadlock letter and go to the Ombudsman to try to get the admin fee refunded? Assuming the Ombudsman applies to third party retailers - does it?

Alternatively travel in Standard, reclaim the fare difference (if there is one) and book first for another time, assuming you'd still enjoy the trip in Standard. Though if it's a LHCS set subbed with a 2-car you probably won't!

 

[mad_rich]

In my experience of having done it several times, Uber/ Omio doesn't charge any admin fee for exchanges.

You have to go through the process of booking a new ticket, and then messaging them through well-hidden Help section in the Uber app, but it's always gone smoothly for me.

 

[Craig2601]

With only just under three hours to go so you don't have much time to escalate the issue, your option is probably now to change the ticket to another suitable departure with First Class. You could ask them for a deadlock letter and go to the Ombudsman to try to get the admin fee refunded? Assuming the Ombudsman applies to third party retailers - does it?

Alternatively travel in Standard, reclaim the fare difference (if there is one) and book first for another time, assuming you'd still enjoy the trip in Standard. Though if it's a LHCS set subbed with a 2-car you probably won't!

I think the latter is looking most likely at the moment - I’m not based anywhere near any stations along the route, so it’s unlikely I’d be able to find another date any time soon, and I’ve got a flight later tonight so won’t be able to make the later Premier service sadly.

Thanks for all your help. Still - at least it’s scheduled for a 3-car!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the latter is looking most likely at the moment - I’m not based anywhere near any stations along the route, so it’s unlikely I’d be able to find another date any time soon, and I’ve got a flight later tonight so won’t be able to make the later Premier service sadly.

Thanks for all your help. Still - at least it’s scheduled for a 3-car!

Sadly it's 112 so no "standard premium" area either! More capacity though I suppose.