nlogax
Established Member
I'm saying that letting people drown is not what we're about. The RNLI saves lives. What else would you have them do?
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Reform UK discussion
- Thread starter telstarbox
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I'm saying that letting people drown is not what we're about. The RNLI saves lives. What else would you have them do?
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Tetragon213
Member
You do realise you're replying to a suggestion that these people should not be left to drown? (I'm not disagreeing with the sentence as is, but people should not be left to simply drown in our waters)
How many of those cases have concluded all stages and, of those, how many have not been removed because of inefficiencies within the government?
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As do I. Which is one reason why I made the comment I did - societies that are based around punishing those who don't conform to whatever pattern is normal tend towards being thoroughly unpleasant. The violent ignorant bigotry of the right is deplorable, but their opponents are also capable of being pretty darn awful - we should aim higher
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Purple Train
Established Member
Well said, thank you.
The practical effect in terms of people remaining within the UK is the same, isn't it?
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I'm not at all suggesting people should be left to drown, but there is a big difference between a rescue decision being based upon a vessel actually showing signs of risk of sinking vs a theoretical risk based upon the numbers of people on board.
So what, they have to wait until people are in the water and actively drowning? The RNLI will save people in distress, in unseaworthy craft or who are stranded all the time, based on a risk that the situation will get worse and people will get into worse danger. Or are you saying you know how to run the lifeboat service better than they do?
I'm saying that their approach should be similar to that in other European countries. I don't there's clarity in the discussion above what that is.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If they are still here because of government inefficiencies then resolving those inefficiencies should allow many of them to be sent back. This part at least is down to how hopeless the Tories were, with their immigration policy set by (checks notes) Robert Jenrick...
But if they just let it continue, it could land somewhere and the would-be migrants could just disappear. So the RNLI is actually helping to ensure they are rounded up and correctly processed.
Yes I've felt for a while that the real reason some people are upset at the RNLI saving lives is that actually they'd rather that the people in the boats did drown in the Channel. The RNLI going and saving their lives frustrates that even though in many respects its far more preferable that they do get rescued both to save lives but also to make sure that they're then rounded up and processed efficiently rather than just potentially vanishing. But if what you actually want is the people to die...
I understand that King Charles is the patron of the RNLI - maybe its time he spoke out and condemed the abuse. That would really embarrass Farage.
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I really don't think it is that. People have better motives than that. It is more how to address the significant pull factor migration-wise by people knowing that if they artificially create a situation where they are at risk in the sea, that will result in them being brought to the UK?
Boats detected near Lampedusa are often intercepted or assisted by the Italian Coast Guard, Guardia di Finanza, or other maritime authorities, especially when vessels are overcrowded or unseaworthy. International maritime law requires rescue of people in distress at sea.
Arrivals are typically taken to the Lampedusa hotspot/reception center, where they receive first aid, medical screening, identification, fingerprinting, and information about asylum procedures.
Migrants are usually transferred from Lampedusa to facilities in Sicily or mainland Italy because the island's reception center is intended for short-term processing and is frequently overcrowded.
Recent Italian policies have also emphasized stronger border controls, anti-smuggling measures, cooperation with countries such as Tunisia, and faster processing of asylum and return cases.
Italy does not simply turn boats away at Lampedusa. People who arrive are generally rescued or received, identified, processed through immigration/asylum procedures, and then either transferred, granted protection, or returned depending on the outcome of their case.
There is a problem with that as a pull factor, and I’m sure some do take advantage of it. But those attacking the RNLI are clearly at most heedless of life, and are simply being vile - I may cut them the benefit of the doubt on assuming they’re racist, but at any other level, they aren’t fit to wipe the feet of the lifeboatmen
SargeNpton
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Nov 2018
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Perhaps the discussion about the recent actions by the RNLI should be spun off into a separate thread, as much of it is not directly to do with Reform.
moderator note - no a split is not needed here.
moderator note - no a split is not needed here.
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Oh no - their rhetoric and dog whistles have led us to this point.
They and their “subscribers” (I won’t use the word members as those stupid enough to part with their cash to the Limited Company have no voting rights in regards to replacing leader or shaping policy) deserve to wear this badge of enablement of those incels we have seen in Dover and Portsmouth this week totally.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Charles doesn't count. He's not white British.
I hope that those calling for such an approach are never in a position where they are relying on the empathy of others.
To mutually find a way forward on issues like this for our country, we really have to stop dismissing the concerns of ordinary, decent people as 'dog whistles'. It's that dismissive attitude and the refusal to have calm, focussed debate which leads to events such as in Dover.
InkyScrolls
On Moderation
They aren't "ordinary, decent people" though, are they?
Well, calm and focused debate is always good. On the topic of the lifeboat crews rescuing small boat arrivals, what exactly is the approach to small boats you would like us to mimic from other Western countries? You didn't elaborate on that.
It needs to be part of a co-ordinated set of actions to eliminate the overall set of pull factors so as to make the UK no more attractive a place to come to than any other country.
Peterthegreat
Established Member
O
Or make French our official language.
That's not really a satisfactory answer. Given you specifically wanted the approach to lifesaving to mimic "other (unnamed) Western countries", I'm curious as to what, exactly, the approach is there and what we should be emulating.
Now I don't actually know what, say, the Italian coast guard does with relation to:
Do they take the same approach or not? Do you know? Because I genuinely don't, but my vague understanding is that Frontex actively surveil the southern Med to look for crossings and the Italian coast guard picks them up before there is any mortal danger.
There are basically two options - one, you send out the RNLI to rescue people who are at risk in your waters in totally unsuitable craft. This means people don't die, and it also means they get dropped off somewhere dedicated where they can be processed.
The other option is to just not do that. This will result in more deaths in our waters which are our moral responsibility. For those who succeed, they will not land in Dover but may well use many crossing points and landing areas. So you'll get random groups of men and families landing in Dungeness or Hythe or Hastings or perhaps even somewhere in the countryside where they can just walk inland and fade in.
The dog whistle is always "well if some more people died in the Channel maybe it would focus some minds", so if you don't want people to think that about you then it probably would help not to suggest the RNLI are making the situation worse. Because if they weren't rescuing people, the second scenario will happen. And if it was me and 40 of my mates risking our lives standing on a small dinghy built for 10 floating nine miles off the coast of Britain and someone spotted us, I think we would all agree the RNLI ought to come out.
The UK is a de factor attractive place to claim asylum because we speak English. The vast majority of asylum seekers in the UK speak English well or very well. And I'll say again - this situation is the creation of the people who hate it the most; Reform voters and Brexiteers. They're the ones who took us out of the EU, and hence out of Dublin III. But it's left to someone else to sort out, as usual.
My main objection to Reform voters is that, while I have sympathy with the basic principle that the social contract is just plain broken, they aren't actually looking for a solution, or to do any hard thinking or compromise or work collegiately. They just want to complain and be victims, and to be considered oppressed ("help I'm being invaded!"). It's a weird kind of reverse wokery which relies on identity politics, which is already very 2020 and sort of passé now.