Reform UK discussion

[nlogax]

Are you sayjg other Western countries are unempathetic? It would seem strange to assume that the UK is uniquely virtuous

I'm saying that letting people drown is not what we're about. The RNLI saves lives. What else would you have them do?

 

[Tetragon213]

No, they don’t - they deserve to be picked up and to see the effort that those volunteers go to.

We should show the “patriots” what good is, not drop to their level

While I broadly agree we should not stoop to their level, the sadistic part in me does see some beautiful karmic irony in @D1511 's comments.

 

[AlterEgo]

We should take a similar approach to other Westetn countries. Otherwise, it does add to the impression of the UK being a soft touch.

You do realise you're replying to a suggestion that these people should not be left to drown? (I'm not disagreeing with the sentence as is, but people should not be left to simply drown in our waters)

 

[35B]

The data don't bear that out.

How many of those cases have concluded all stages and, of those, how many have not been removed because of inefficiencies within the government?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 14:59 ==

While I broadly agree we should not stoop to their level, the sadistic part in me does see some beautiful karmic irony in @D1511 's comments.

As do I. Which is one reason why I made the comment I did - societies that are based around punishing those who don't conform to whatever pattern is normal tend towards being thoroughly unpleasant. The violent ignorant bigotry of the right is deplorable, but their opponents are also capable of being pretty darn awful - we should aim higher

 

[Purple Train]

As do I. Which is one reason why I made the comment I did - societies that are based around punishing those who don't conform to whatever pattern is normal tend towards being thoroughly unpleasant. The violent ignorant bigotry of the right is deplorable, but their opponents are also capable of being pretty darn awful - we should aim higher

Well said, thank you.

 

[TUC]

how many have not been removed because of inefficiencies within the government?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 14:59 ==

The practical effect in terms of people remaining within the UK is the same, isn't it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 16:36 ==

You do realise you're replying to a suggestion that these people should not be left to drown? (I'm not disagreeing with the sentence as is, but people should not be left to simply drown in our waters)

I'm not at all suggesting people should be left to drown, but there is a big difference between a rescue decision being based upon a vessel actually showing signs of risk of sinking vs a theoretical risk based upon the numbers of people on board.

 

[AlterEgo]

The practical effect in terms of people remaining within the UK is the same, isn't it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 16:36 ==


I'm not at all suggesting people should be left to drown, but there is a big difference between a rescue decision being based upon a vessel actually showing signs of risk of sinking vs a theoretical risk based upon the numbers of people on board.

So what, they have to wait until people are in the water and actively drowning? The RNLI will save people in distress, in unseaworthy craft or who are stranded all the time, based on a risk that the situation will get worse and people will get into worse danger. Or are you saying you know how to run the lifeboat service better than they do?

 

[TUC]

So what, they have to wait until people are in the water and actively drowning? The RNLI will save people in distress, in unseaworthy craft or who are stranded all the time, based on a risk that the situation will get worse and people will get into worse danger. Or are you saying you know how to run the lifeboat service better than they do?

I'm saying that their approach should be similar to that in other European countries. I don't there's clarity in the discussion above what that is.

 

[Harpo]

I'm not at all suggesting people should be left to drown, but there is a big difference between a rescue decision being based upon a vessel actually showing signs of risk of sinking vs a theoretical risk based upon the numbers of people on board.

Keep digging! There’s a risk to life. Full stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm saying that their approach should be similar to that in other European countries. I don't there's clarity in the discussion above what that is.

What is the approach there and why would that be beneficial?

 

[35B]

I'm saying that their approach should be similar to that in other European countries. I don't there's clarity in the discussion above what that is.

You mean the approach of the Italians to those approaching Lampedusa?

 

[edwin_m]

The practical effect in terms of people remaining within the UK is the same, isn't it?

If they are still here because of government inefficiencies then resolving those inefficiencies should allow many of them to be sent back. This part at least is down to how hopeless the Tories were, with their immigration policy set by (checks notes) Robert Jenrick...

I'm not at all suggesting people should be left to drown, but there is a big difference between a rescue decision being based upon a vessel actually showing signs of risk of sinking vs a theoretical risk based upon the numbers of people on board.

But if they just let it continue, it could land somewhere and the would-be migrants could just disappear. So the RNLI is actually helping to ensure they are rounded up and correctly processed.

 

[ainsworth74]

But if they just let it continue, it could land somewhere and the would-be migrants could just disappear. So the RNLI is actually helping to ensure they are rounded up and correctly processed.

Yes I've felt for a while that the real reason some people are upset at the RNLI saving lives is that actually they'd rather that the people in the boats did drown in the Channel. The RNLI going and saving their lives frustrates that even though in many respects its far more preferable that they do get rescued both to save lives but also to make sure that they're then rounded up and processed efficiently rather than just potentially vanishing. But if what you actually want is the people to die...

 

[Mag_seven]

I understand that King Charles is the patron of the RNLI - maybe its time he spoke out and condemed the abuse. That would really embarrass Farage.

 

[TUC]

Yes I've felt for a while that the real reason some people are upset at the RNLI saving lives is that actually they'd rather that the people in the boats did drown in the Channel. The RNLI going and saving their lives frustrates that even though in many respects its far more preferable that they do get rescued both to save lives but also to make sure that they're then rounded up and processed efficiently rather than just potentially vanishing. But if what you actually want is the people to die...

I really don't think it is that. People have better motives than that. It is more how to address the significant pull factor migration-wise by people knowing that if they artificially create a situation where they are at risk in the sea, that will result in them being brought to the UK?

 

[BAFRA77]

I'm saying that their approach should be similar to that in other European countries. I don't there's clarity in the discussion above what that is.

Boats detected near Lampedusa are often intercepted or assisted by the Italian Coast Guard, Guardia di Finanza, or other maritime authorities, especially when vessels are overcrowded or unseaworthy. International maritime law requires rescue of people in distress at sea.

Arrivals are typically taken to the Lampedusa hotspot/reception center, where they receive first aid, medical screening, identification, fingerprinting, and information about asylum procedures.

Migrants are usually transferred from Lampedusa to facilities in Sicily or mainland Italy because the island's reception center is intended for short-term processing and is frequently overcrowded.

Recent Italian policies have also emphasized stronger border controls, anti-smuggling measures, cooperation with countries such as Tunisia, and faster processing of asylum and return cases.

Italy does not simply turn boats away at Lampedusa. People who arrive are generally rescued or received, identified, processed through immigration/asylum procedures, and then either transferred, granted protection, or returned depending on the outcome of their case.

 

[35B]

I really don't think it is that. People have better motives than that. It is more how to address the significant pull factor migration-wise by people knowing that if they artificially create a situation where they are at risk in the sea, that will result in them being brought to the UK?

There is a problem with that as a pull factor, and I’m sure some do take advantage of it. But those attacking the RNLI are clearly at most heedless of life, and are simply being vile - I may cut them the benefit of the doubt on assuming they’re racist, but at any other level, they aren’t fit to wipe the feet of the lifeboatmen

 

[SargeNpton]

Perhaps the discussion about the recent actions by the RNLI should be spun off into a separate thread, as much of it is not directly to do with Reform.

 

[BAFRA77]

Perhaps the discussion about the recent actions by the RNLI should be spun off into a separate thread, as much of it is not directly to do with Reform.

Oh no - their rhetoric and dog whistles have led us to this point.

They and their “subscribers” (I won’t use the word members as those stupid enough to part with their cash to the Limited Company have no voting rights in regards to replacing leader or shaping policy) deserve to wear this badge of enablement of those incels we have seen in Dover and Portsmouth this week totally.

 

[edwin_m]

I understand that King Charles is the patron of the RNLI - maybe its time he spoke out and condemed the abuse. That would really embarrass Farage.

Charles doesn't count. He's not white British.

 

[Yew]

Yes, basic human empathy is far too generous. We obviously can't be doing that.

I hope that those calling for such an approach are never in a position where they are relying on the empathy of others.