Reform UK discussion

[S101]

Boat people are a threat - not directly, but their presence has been and continues to threaten good order and contributes the perception of a broken social contract and a loss of state power.

(We can't fix it in the way Reform and Restore want, but it does need fixing urgently)

It doesn't need fixing. It adds plenty of benefits to the UK as a whole. It definitely doesn't create a burden for the tax payer, and enriches day to day life, especially in our towns and cities that were already in a bad place. All I can see is benefits! But then I live in a nice posh place, that's not experienced this positive addition to the nation. I wish it'd come to Ripon (North Yorkshire) so that we could benefit too.

 

[MicroLithium]

Net migration is down by almost 50% in the last 12 months, asylum applications down 20%, deportations up nearly 10%, small boat arrivals down 43% since last year. And the blackshirts are still rioting. It’s a folly to pretend this is a polite policy argument

 

[Bletchleyite]

Net migration is down by almost 50% in the last 12 months, asylum applications down 20%, deportations up nearly 10%, small boat arrivals down 43% since last year. And the blackshirts are still rioting. It’s a folly to pretend this is a polite policy argument

It isn't just about stopping the boats, it is also about reversing the existing immigration in their eyes. The desire is a return to about the 1990s demographic makeup of the UK I think.

 

[MicroLithium]

It isn't just about stopping the boats, it is also about reversing the existing immigration in their eyes. The desire is a return to about the 1990s demographic makeup of the UK I think.

Clearly both impossible, unsustainable, and driven by a very unpleasant racist nationalism

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly both impossible, unsustainable, and driven by a very unpleasant racist nationalism

But also some entirely valid concerns about some aspects of immigration, such as some aspects of stricter forms of Islam.

One of the things that breeds this kind of extremist stuff is not dealing with or actively dismissing genuine, valid concerns. This is also how Brexit happened, at least in part.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The desire is a return to about the 1990s demographic makeup of the UK I think.

Is that the Reform position? (The Restore one is obviously to rewind back a lot further)

 

[D1537]

It isn't just about stopping the boats, it is also about reversing the existing immigration in their eyes. The desire is a return to about the 1990s demographic makeup of the UK I think.

Oh no. Restore and co. want to get rid of everyone who isn't White British, regardless of how long they've been here.

Reform are actually quite similar, but you won't find them admitting it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that the Reform position? (The Restore one is obviously to rewind back a lot further)

It's not a stated position of Reform, though I believe it is of Restore, but I suspect it is there in the minds of a lot of the supporters of both. There is always an idealisation of one's childhood, unless it was particularly unpleasant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 20:29 ==

Oh no. Restore and co. want to get rid of everyone who isn't White British, regardless of how long they've been here.

Restore want that, but I think Reform would want an element of it, they aren't quite the same levels of extreme. However this isn't a stated policy.

 

[SuspectUsual]

However this isn't a stated policy

And that’s an issue in itself, of course. Reform are built as a protest party and built their popularity by telling everyone what the governing party were doing wrong, whilst offering only slogans for what they’d do in power. There’s still precious little in terms of policy

 

[MicroLithium]

Restore want that, but I think Reform would want an element of it, they aren't quite the same levels of extreme. However this isn't a stated policy.

And thus my point that there is in fact no meaningful ideological difference between Reform and Restore. Imagine if they had actually both been mainstream political parties in the 90s, and studying their manifestos: “Hmm, Reform would like to make British citizenship dependent on being white, and Restore want the same thing but are a bit more intense about it. How shall I choose?”

 

[Killingworth]

Oh no. Restore and co. want to get rid of everyone who isn't White British, regardless of how long they've been here.

Reform are actually quite similar, but you won't find them admitting it.

Do they ever use a hospital, or any other NHS service?

 

[MicroLithium]

Do they ever use a hospital, or any other NHS service?

This is a very good point and what I was getting at with my “unsustainable” comment: we are way past the point where we can supply a health and social care workforce for the ageing population domestically. We have been doing our very best to encourage qualified people, despite the barriers put up by even Labour governments, to meet the shortfall, and we’re not even touching the sides. The NHS workforce actually shrank for the first time in years according to the last NWRS statistics: sound like a good idea to you?

 

[S101]

Not sure the people off the boats are destined to keep the NHS afloat. Nobody gives a damn about NHS workers paying their 20 to 40% tax. Indeed, if they wanted to work in the NHS there are proper channels to do so, and they would generally be welcomed. Not rubber boats.

Stop using the NHS as an excuse to make out that the rubber boats are a potential good thing. The population is not bothered about meaningful immigration, such as for the NHS. They are however bothered about thousands of generally men, loitering on the streets, up to no good. It may not be a concern of most people here, but it is of the real people out there, who live alongside it. Tell those people who are worried, what the benefits are.......

 

[GusB]

Not sure the people off the boats are destined to keep the NHS afloat. Nobody gives a damn about NHS workers paying their 20 to 40% tax. Indeed, if they wanted to work in the NHS there are proper channels to do so, and they would generally be welcomed. Not rubber boats.

Stop using the NHS as an excuse to make out that the rubber boats are a potential good thing. The population is not bothered about meaningful immigration, such as for the NHS. They are however bothered about thousands of generally men, loitering on the streets, up to no good. It may not be a concern of most people here, but it is of the real people out there, who live alongside it. Tell those people who are worried, what the benefits are.......

Why are those people loitering, though? Because it takes so long to process asylum applications (a great proportion of which will be granted). They're not permitted to work while waiting and we give them little to survive on, so they're not exactly going to be able to go to the cinema or take part in other leisure activities. If we speed up the processing system, those who are granted leave to remain can get on with their lives and the rest can be deported, or steps taken in that direction.

I note that you raise the fact that it's mainly men again. (you missed out "fighting age", which is a shame as I'd have been able to tick it off on my bingo card), but it's not really surprising when you consider that crossing the channel in such a way is a fairly dangerous activity. It's not only men, though. Besides, if we had safer ways for people to claim asylum, we'd have fewer small boats.

Anyway, if you're so dead against groups of mainly men loitering and being up to no good, I assume you'll be happy to condemn the protests that we've seen in Dover and Portsmouth?

 

[brad465]

But also some entirely valid concerns about some aspects of immigration, such as some aspects of stricter forms of Islam.

One of the things that breeds this kind of extremist stuff is not dealing with or actively dismissing genuine, valid concerns. This is also how Brexit happened, at least in part.

I wouldn't be surprised if the prevalence of any form of Islam in the UK, especially the stricter types, is much lower than many think it is, even though it probably has increased in recent decades. But as always, things like social media and politicians who need to peddle an agenda amplify the issue, like they do with several other issues.

I also don't think it is a coincidence that any increase in recent decades has occurred while US-led wars have ravaged the Middle East, with the many refugees that have resulted mostly coming to Europe. Maybe part of the deal is this: don't want more Islam in your country, don't bomb countries that practise it.

 

[Yew]

It's not a stated position of Reform, though I believe it is of Restore, but I suspect it is there in the minds of a lot of the supporters of both. There is always an idealisation of one's childhood, unless it was particularly unpleasant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 20:29 ==



Restore want that, but I think Reform would want an element of it, they aren't quite the same levels of extreme. However this isn't a stated policy.

Nige will say anything if he thinks it is a distraction that will buy his chums a few more years of asset-stripping our country.

 

[Killingworth]

Not sure the people off the boats are destined to keep the NHS afloat. Nobody gives a damn about NHS workers paying their 20 to 40% tax. Indeed, if they wanted to work in the NHS there are proper channels to do so, and they would generally be welcomed. Not rubber boats.

Stop using the NHS as an excuse to make out that the rubber boats are a potential good thing. The population is not bothered about meaningful immigration, such as for the NHS. They are however bothered about thousands of generally men, loitering on the streets, up to no good. It may not be a concern of most people here, but it is of the real people out there, who live alongside it. Tell those people who are worried, what the benefits are.......

I doubt more than 2% of the boat people will ever be eligible to assist the NHS, if that. Rubber boats are the high profile evidence that obscures much of the migration iceberg.

We're overlooking the detailed effects of net migration over recent decades. Many Reform and Restore party supporters find those with names they can't spell non-British. That's without compounding it by adding colour or religion. The fact that many of them are now 3rd generation born in Britain makes Reformist nostalgic dreams of mass repatriation so hard to incorporate into practical policy. You cant.

Boat people are outnumbered by others who have contrived to settle on our shores like. students or tourists over staying visas and quietly melting into communities by one ruse or another.

The big problem is how do all the magnet countries staunch the inward flows, let alone how can large numbers be sent back? Britain couldn't succeed alone. They need stopping nearer to source.

If they were how would we get the vacant jobs covered from the seemingly untrainable masses now burdening our Social Security budget?

For now we have the rising cost of ALL who are not working. Supposed asylum seeking economic migrants are probably fitter and more willing to work than some born here who don't/won't. No party seems able to fix this multifaceted mix of issues.

But 1950 isn't coming back.

 

[ChrisC]

I only knowingly know two people who say they'd vote Reform. One of them is pragmatic enough to admit its a very tough thing to solve and the withdrawal agreement makes it worse; the other happily says "Nigel will have a plan" and offers nothing else.

That is certainly not my experience, but is perhaps understandable as I live in a county which now has a Reform run council with a huge majority. At the local council elections Reform won a huge majority in Nottinghamshire, with the main opposition being the Conservatives, and Labour almost completely wiped out. I know lots of people who voted Reform in the county council elections last year and many probably would do so if there was to be a general election now.

I know that some supporters of Reform are far right thugs and some may be poorly educated, but the Reform voters I know do not fall into either of these categories. I think the uneducated and far right thugs are more likely to gravitate towards Restore. The people I know are mostly good honest hard working people who in the past were staunchly Labour voters. I also know some very well educated former Conservative voters who are now very sympathetic towards Reform and these include farmers and even some retired teachers. At the local elections the Reform candidate in my ward was a well respected and well educated local farmer. I must add that I did not vote for him but tactically voted Conservative to keep him out.

So often the media, the government, and indeed members of this forum label Reform supporters as being far right and often poorly educated. Many of them are not and constant labelling them all as such only adds to the unrest in the country. I don’t agree with Reform, and would not vote for them. I think that the people I know who would vote for them are misguided and will eventually realise that they have been deceived. I do agree that we do currently have a seriously growing problem with the far right in this country and I thought what happened in Dover on Saturday looked quite sinister. However, most people I know who are sympathetic towards Reform would condemn what happened in Dover, the same as I do.

 

[brad465]

That is certainly not my experience, but is perhaps understandable as I live in a county which now has a Reform run council with a huge majority. At the local council elections Reform won a huge majority in Nottinghamshire, with the main opposition being the Conservatives, and Labour almost completely wiped out. I know lots of people who voted Reform in the county council elections last year and many probably would do so if there was to be a general election now.

I know that some supporters of Reform are far right thugs and some may be poorly educated, but the Reform voters I know do not fall into either of these categories. I think the uneducated and far right thugs are more likely to gravitate towards Restore. The people I know are mostly good honest hard working people who in the past were staunchly Labour voters. I also know some very well educated former Conservative voters who are now very sympathetic towards Reform and these include farmers and even some retired teachers. At the local elections the Reform candidate in my ward was a well respected and well educated local farmer. I must add that I did not vote for him but tactically voted Conservative to keep him out.

So often the media, the government, and indeed members of this forum label Reform supporters as being far right and often poorly educated. Many of them are not and constant labelling them all as such only adds to the unrest in the country. I don’t agree with Reform, and would not vote for them. I think that the people I know who would vote for them are misguided and will eventually realise that they have been deceived. I do agree that we do currently have a seriously growing problem with the far right in this country and I thought what happened in Dover on Saturday looked quite sinister. However, most people I know who are sympathetic towards Reform would condemn what happened in Dover, the same as I do.

The ultimate problem we have I think is "the power behind the throne", which is party and politician funding.

Money buys politicians and their parties, and the origins will just move to whoever looks most likely to win power. Reform are not only under the same influence, but as we found out last week, are even more beholden to dark money behind the scenes.

Almost every grievance the population has with politics and how the country is can be traced back to policies, or lack of policies, that happened as a result of oligarchy.

This is where the debate needs to move to on all sides - this debate has gained traction since the £5m Harborne bung, but it's also very strong in the US now, where Democrat primaries are seeing candidates being selected not only despite less money being spent on there campaigns, but the spending by Super PACS is actively turning support away from who the money is being spent on. The common slogan used is "money out of politics, money in your pocket."

 

[yorkie]

There are some absolutely bonkers Reform specimens in this video

700K views · 14K reactions | Our undercover reporter Chris Atkins posed as a far right journalist at the Reform Conference, and got thrown out for asking difficult questions about Farage's corruption scandal. | Byline Times

Our undercover reporter Chris Atkins posed as a far right journalist at the Reform Conference, and got thrown out for asking difficult questions about Farage's corruption scandal.

www.facebook.com

Our undercover reporter Chris Atkins posed as a far right journalist at the Reform Conference, and got thrown out for asking difficult questions about Farage's corruption scandal.

The comments are savage; here are a selection:

Almost a Jonathan Pie sketch with actors...then you realise it's real and know that evolution still has some work to do.

'What they did is edit together what they actually said' 'yeah!'

Reminds me of The Good Liars interviewing MAGA supporters.

Is that a place where you play spot the brain cell? Its like spot the ball but harder.

We laugh but then realise, this is not satire. It's shocking how blinkered they are!

Man gets caught by a speed camera doing 80 mph. He says he was set up and that the big question is who has funded the speed camera.

The lights are on but there is no one at home!

 

[AlterEgo]

Re: boats...all talking past one another again.

The "ignore the boat people they don't hurt you" slant is like telling 90,000 people watching a game at Wembley Stadium that the 500 people vaulting the barriers and entering without a ticket isn't a problem because they can't afford a ticket and some international law says it is fine anyway. And if only you concentrated on the big things, stupid - like how it's unfair there are so many Club Wembley seats and proper fans don't get a fair allocation from The Corporation and footballer salaries are bloated and there aren't enough sustainable food choices and there are sometimes homophobic chants and gambling sponsors are a cancer on the game and and and...etc.

People don't like to see outsiders breaking in. It's as simple as that. Boat people look like they are breaking in, and with tacit consent too. And if you're struggling like many are, and you feel politically isolated, and you pay loads of money for your council tax and energy bills and childcare and all the rest of it, it'll seem unfair that it looks like people with no business being here are landing here and often being granted asylum, sometimes under spurious circumstances.

The solution is to properly process claims rapidly and fairly and rejoin the EU and Dublin III. The boat stuff is a symptom of Brexit.

Where I live, in the blameless and bucolic south Midlands, we can see the issue in plain sight. It's a visible symptom of the state's lack of power to simply enforce its will on people. There are gatherings of young men outside Tesco Express in the next village over because they have nothing to do and they are in a broken system which works for and pleases absolutely nobody of any political stripe. They are trouble, because they live on top of one another in mediocre conditions in a boring hotel, they can't work or earn money and life is by design pointless and nihilistic.

Of course the cohort most responsible for the current situation is Reform and Restore voters. This has happened by choice for them and is an unintended consequence of Brexit. So I'm not especially happy to hear them all moan about it. But I do understand how it will look unfair to them and how the country is going to the dogs. I despair.

 

[Cdd89]

I'm surprised to see people up thread actually defending small boat arrivals. I am extremely pro-immigration, but I can't believe that this is the form of immigration anyone would choose, with all the risk it imposes on those crossing (aside from anything else).

As for solutions, the Rwanda scheme wasn't the worst solution. "If you arrive by small boat, you'll end up in a third country that's worse than France, no matter how good your case" would have completely killed that form of irregular arrival. Certainly better than futile attempts to disrupt the supply.

Everyone commented on how it wouldn't have worked, that we Rwanda wouldn't have had the capacity, that it's too expensive, and that we would have to take someone from Rwanda – but I thought those arguments were mostly in bad faith. As soon as word got around that it's not a viable route, we'd stop needing to actually send people there.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

There's also the fact that:
1. Iran has reportedly been sending assets in said boats (https://www.iranintl.com/en/202608026154)
2. Caches of weapons have been found in said boats (https://inews.co.uk/news/asylum-see...eUFvGBoeoiBnzEakOEXFfA7p2rke6A4siv88-GPpBQUhw)
3. According to a whistleblower, only 1 in every 100 claims are genuine (https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/only-...eal-says-home-office-whistleblower-5Hjdh5J_2/)
4. The UN refugee agency have criticised the government for giving asylum to those who aren't entitled to it. (https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politic...ticised-home-office-asylum-migrants-c793jwjtd)

 

[S101]

I note that you raise the fact that it's mainly men again.

Because it is!

People crossing the English Channel in small boats - Migration Observatory https://share.google/aXTlFr3gRCSs7m4Ag

The majority of those arriving in small boats are men over the age of 18 – around 76% of 2025 arrivals for whom this information was recorded.

How many people come to the UK irregularly? - GOV.UK https://share.google/OkdWKs7E3nEt7UAhc

Since January 2018, three-quarters (75%) of small boat arrivals have been adult males aged 18 and over.

Channel Crossing Tracker | Migration Watch UK

Since 2018, illegal immigrants have been attempting to enter the United Kingdom by crossing the English Channel in small boats, often using inflatable dinghies.

share.google

What kind of people are crossing the channel?​

Predominantly, young and middle aged men are crossing the channel, by a significant majority; as of 2024, as many as 101,506 men aged 18-40 have crossed the channel.

It's not only men, though.

I know, that's why I said 'generally'.

Your patronising 'tone' and lack of understanding as to why a growing number of normal UK residents feel annoyed, is part of the problem, and unhelpful.

Still, there is a reluctance, to educate these unhappy thicko's, gammons, tax payers, mothers and fathers as to the benefits of these, generally, men wondering around aimlessly, providing nothing but a drain on society.

As to the reasons they are here with nothing to do, that's out of the control of Brian, aged 56, truck driver from Barnsley. He's just annoyed, because the Conservatives had a go, Labour has got a go, and nothing is changing in the locality he lives.

He's not Racist. He's not Far Right. He pays his 40% Tax, and doesn't agree with the way his contribution is divided out. Let's face it, he's not funding an NHS apprenticeship and education for these, generally men. They will not be employed by the NHS. The NHS argument is not applicable in the context of Small Boat arrivals.

He's just annoyed. And people calling Brian a Far Right Thug for having an opinion, because that's all it is, is really not helpful.

 

[Ediswan]

There's also the fact that:
1. Iran has reportedly been sending assets in said boats (https://www.iranintl.com/en/202608026154)
2. Caches of weapons have been found in said boats (https://inews.co.uk/news/asylum-see...eUFvGBoeoiBnzEakOEXFfA7p2rke6A4siv88-GPpBQUhw)
3. According to a whistleblower, only 1 in every 100 claims are genuine (https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/only-...eal-says-home-office-whistleblower-5Hjdh5J_2/)
4. The UN refugee agency have criticised the government for giving asylum to those who aren't entitled to it. (https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politic...ticised-home-office-asylum-migrants-c793jwjtd)

As a sample, I followed the second link. Nothing in the linked article even suggests weapons were found in a small boat. It is about possession of videos of weapons in Yemen.

 

[DarloRich]

What would Reform be saying if jus stop oilers dressed all in orange and wearing orange balaclavas had blocked the port of Dover? The hypocrisy is deafening.

 

[S101]

As a sample, I followed the second link. Nothing in the linked article even suggests weapons were found in a small boat. It is about possession of videos of weapons in Yemen.

I bet he's a really nice person, the person with those videos, who is the subject of that article. A real saint.

 

[martin butler]

The links between far-right groups, and foreign money needs to be investigated, you can't tell me that 300 far right activists suddenly decided to turn up at Dover, and then at Portsmouth, it had to be organised and funded,

Farage, and others are the soft-focus front men, but behind them, are real thugs' intent on ensuring they make the headlines, and instil fear to further a certain agenda, one of that the country is under threat that law and order need to go, and a hard authoritarian regime is needed to ensure safety, but at the cost of everyone's rights,

If we are at war with each other, who does it help? and why?

The answer is regimes like Israel, regimes like Russia, Israel for example is known to lobby and have interests in western countries, Countries that are critical of the present Israeli government's actions, Russia seeks to undermine the wests collective strengths, Trade, Nato, and of course it is at war with a country looking to the west for aid, and support its already bought the US, in the shape of the Trump family, and gotten into American politics with donations to groups that want the US to be isolationist ,

Israel again uses its intelligence agencies to ensure the western governments are supportive of its aims, and of course Putin, Neynayaho and Trump are all now embroiled in wars, that they need to be seen to win, because their own lives depend on it, all three face prison if they lose power, possibly their lives.

 

[GusB]

'Your patronising 'tone' and lack of understanding as to why a growing number of normal UK residents feel annoyed, is part of the problem, and unhelpful.

Please don't accuse me of a lack of understanding. I'm not particularly enamoured with the way Labour and the Tories have been running things either, and I'm aware that people are unhappy, but it's not the fault of people, many of whom are extremely vulnerable and will have gone through situations we cannot even imagine, who come here to seek asylum.

Still, there is a reluctance, to educate these unhappy thicko's, gammons, tax payers, mothers and fathers as to the benefits of these, generally, men wondering around aimlessly, providing nothing but a drain on society.

Again, that's not the fault of the people who have come here, but entirely the fault of successive governments to deal with the issue. Instead of having people festering away in hotels and other asylum accommodation, why not let them work while their claims are being assessed? They're only wandering around aimlessly because they're not permitted to do very much. Allowing asylum seekers to work means that they're less of a drain on society.

As to the reasons they are here with nothing to do, that's out of the control of Brian, aged 56, truck driver from Barnsley. He's just annoyed, because the Conservatives had a go, Labour has got a go, and nothing is changing in the locality he lives.

He's not Racist. He's not Far Right. He pays his 40% Tax, and doesn't agree with the way his contribution is divided out. Let's face it, he's not funding an NHS apprenticeship and education for these, generally men. They will not be employed by the NHS. The NHS argument is not applicable in the context of Small Boat arrivals.

He's just annoyed. And people calling Brian a Far Right Thug for having an opinion, because that's all it is, is really not helpful.

All fair points; not everyone who supports Reform is racist or far right. However, many people who do support Reform are racists and far right.

By the way, I'm still not sure why you keep emphasising the point that they're mainly men. I'm well aware of this fact, but why is it so significant?

 

[ainsworth74]

The "ignore the boat people they don't hurt you" slant is like telling 90,000 people watching a game at Wembley Stadium that the 500 people vaulting the barriers and entering without a ticket isn't a problem because they can't afford a ticket and some international law says it is fine anyway. And if only you concentrated on the big things, stupid - like how it's unfair there are so many Club Wembley seats and proper fans don't get a fair allocation from The Corporation and footballer salaries are bloated and there aren't enough sustainable food choices and there are sometimes homophobic chants and gambling sponsors are a cancer on the game and and and...etc.

People don't like to see outsiders breaking in. It's as simple as that. Boat people look like they are breaking in, and with tacit consent too. And if you're struggling like many are, and you feel politically isolated, and you pay loads of money for your council tax and energy bills and childcare and all the rest of it, it'll seem unfair that it looks like people with no business being here are landing here and often being granted asylum, sometimes under spurious circumstances.

Yes, whilst I think some of the fear being stirred up about small boats is overblown (and particularly that the right wing press doesn't seem to have any interest in reporting that the numbers of crossing are down...) I also do think that it isn't an unreasonable view to hold that people shouldn't be crossing the channel irregularly and that it feels rather like they're circumventing the system and taking advantage.

I just think that the vitriol is out with the scale of the problem. The small boat people aren't the reason the NHS is knackered, the Royal Navy can't put a single nuclear attack submarine to sea for months at a time, or why young people can't afford a house and have to live in house shares into their 30s. They're a problem but if they all vanished tomorrow all those things would still be broken.

The solution is to properly process claims rapidly and fairly and rejoin the EU and Dublin III. The boat stuff is a symptom of Brexit.

Which party are you standing for just so I know who to vote for with that manifesto?

Where I live, in the blameless and bucolic south Midlands, we can see the issue in plain sight. It's a visible symptom of the state's lack of power to simply enforce its will on people. There are gatherings of young men outside Tesco Express in the next village over because they have nothing to do and they are in a broken system which works for and pleases absolutely nobody of any political stripe. They are trouble, because they live on top of one another in mediocre conditions in a boring hotel, they can't work or earn money and life is by design pointless and nihilistic.

Of course the cohort most responsible for the current situation is Reform and Restore voters. This has happened by choice for them and is an unintended consequence of Brexit. So I'm not especially happy to hear them all moan about it. But I do understand how it will look unfair to them and how the country is going to the dogs. I despair.

Meanwhile up here the state's lack of power is demonstrated by the gangs of home grown youths running around the place getting themselves and police officers killed. Won't stop the people up here voting Reform/Restore because of small boats just as voting for Brexit hasn't improved their lot any either. I find myself also despairing.