Reform UK discussion

[SuspectUsual]

I don't see that proving anything. Four of the Reform seats are above the average and four are below by fairly similar amounts. It would need a lot more data to prove or otherwise that Reform majorities correlate with PIP claimants.

OK, but is it not the case that the four Reform constituencies that are above the average are the four that actually elected a Reform MP, and the four that are below average returned a Tory who has since defected?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't see that proving anything. Four of the Reform seats are above the average and four are below by fairly similar amounts. It would need a lot more data to prove or otherwise that Reform majorities correlate with PIP claimants.

That is all of the Reform majorities in Parliament as things stand.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't see that proving anything. Four of the Reform seats are above the average and four are below by fairly similar amounts. It would need a lot more data to prove or otherwise that Reform majorities correlate with PIP claimants.

I should have explained. I read it that if those who claim PIP in those constituencies, on hearing the ‘policy’ chose to vote ‘not Reform’, then they could lose their majorities. It’s reasonable to assume that many of those in receipt of that benefit did vote reform, although obviously we don’t know how many.

 

[Brightonboy]

I should have explained. I read it that if those who claim PIP in those constituencies, on hearing the ‘policy’ chose to vote ‘not Reform’, then they could lose their majorities. It’s reasonable to assume that many of those in receipt of that benefit did vote reform, although obviously we don’t know how many.

Of course, it is possible that some of the PIP or other welfare beneficiaries would vote Reform in the expectation that reducing the number of claimants (i.e. by excluding foreigners, immigrants etc) would lead to a bigger share of the pot being available to the remaining 'genuine British' claimants (i.e. themselves).

 

[D1537]

I don't see that proving anything. Four of the Reform seats are above the average and four are below by fairly similar amounts. It would need a lot more data to prove or otherwise that Reform majorities correlate with PIP claimants.

According to that graphic, all four of the current Reform MPs who *were actually elected as Reform MPs* are in constituencies where PIP > majority.

The bottom four were all won by Tories who defected.

So it's unsurprising that the ones won by Tories are in wealthier areas where PIP is lower. These areas are not Reform strongholds, however.

 

[brad465]

Good piece on the BBC news website comparing the number of PIP claimants in Westminster constituencies it holds, and came a close second in.

Does Reform's plan to cut £50bn in welfare spending add up?

BBC Verify breaks down what the party says it wants to do to cut the benefits bill - and how realistic it is.

www.bbc.co.uk

(Graphic below, showing for example Boston & Skegness has 10,548 PIP claimants, with Mr Tice’s majority 2,010

View attachment 209791

"I never thought leopards would eat my face, sobs person who voted for the Leopards eating People's Faces party"

 

[Tetragon213]

Understood. But I would argue this is indicative of the most vocal of social media users (which is absolutely not the same thing as most people who are registered on social media sites), rather than rail enthusiasts in general.


Social media such as Twitter (I refuse to call it "X") and Facebook host a lot of hate posts, but it's a minority - who are particularly vocal - who are submitting that sort of content.

With the attitudes I see in the volunteer/staff areas, I have to disagree with you quite strongly on that one. The number of volunteers in there who go around slinging the t-slur, with the same casualness that one would order a beer with, is disgusting. Some of the younger folk are alright, but they make up a rather small minority within the rail enthusiast community. Some of the stuff you hear from the footplate crews at other lines when they start talking politics (and don't think anyone's within earshot) would, if said in my professional work/day job office, get you pulled for disciplinary rather fast and rightfully so in that case.

Heck, I have a friend of a friend that I know relatively well, who has actually been the victim of a transphobic attack while out spotting. As I understand it, BTP did sod-all.

I don't like generalising old people, but the actions of the vast majority I encounter on a weekly basis make that almost impossible.

 

[D1537]

Of course, it is possible that some of the PIP or other welfare beneficiaries would vote Reform in the expectation that reducing the number of claimants (i.e. by excluding foreigners, immigrants etc) would lead to a bigger share of the pot being available to the remaining 'genuine British' claimants (i.e. themselves).

That assumes a far greater level of economic awareness than we usually associate with Reform voters. But given that Reform are quite clear they want to slash the amounts given out in benefits, any savings made would probably go elsewhere anyway.

 

[35B]

With the attitudes I see in the volunteer/staff areas, I have to disagree with you quite strongly on that one. The number of volunteers in there who go around slinging the t-slur, with the same casualness that one would order a beer with, is disgusting. Some of the younger folk are alright, but they make up a rather small minority within the rail enthusiast community. Some of the stuff you hear from the footplate crews at other lines when they start talking politics (and don't think anyone's within earshot) would, if said in my professional work/day job office, get you pulled for disciplinary rather fast and rightfully so in that case.

Heck, I have a friend of a friend that I know relatively well, who has actually been the victim of a transphobic attack while out spotting. As I understand it, BTP did sod-all.

I don't like generalising old people, but the actions of the vast majority I encounter on a weekly basis make that almost impossible.

As someone a generation older, I also don't like being generalised. But I also don't recognise your description, nor do I recognise it from what my children say to me about the world they live in. Both of which make me wonder how the sample is being assessed, and what is being extrapolated from the events I have no doubt that you have encountered.

In particular, I do not accept that one attack on your acquaintance, unacceptable though it is, provides the basis for a generalisation about a whole category of people.

 

[Tetragon213]

As someone a generation older, I also don't like being generalised. But I also don't recognise your description, nor do I recognise it from what my children say to me about the world they live in. Both of which make me wonder how the sample is being assessed, and what is being extrapolated from the events I have no doubt that you have encountered.

In particular, I do not accept that one attack on your acquaintance, unacceptable though it is, provides the basis for a generalisation about a whole category of people.

If the attitudes of the vast majority of the people at my heritage line, the attitudes of the volunteers that I encounter at the heritage lines I have been to as a visitor, and the aforementioned postings on social media are anything to go by, coupled with an actual violent attack against a friend which she reported to BTP are anything to go by, it would seem that making the generalisation about the rail enthusiast community and being social inadequates or just downright having a serious bigotry problem would be less generalisation and more justified statement of fact.

And wouldn't you know it, in the staff room, whenever this or any other political issues get brought up, the same old farts immediately start singing the praises of poor old Nige...

 

[styles]

The number of volunteers in there who go around slinging the t-slur, with the same casualness that one would order a beer with, is disgusting.

Maybe I'm being dense, but what is the t-slur?

 

[D1537]

As someone a generation older, I also don't like being generalised. But I also don't recognise your description, nor do I recognise it from what my children say to me about the world they live in. Both of which make me wonder how the sample is being assessed, and what is being extrapolated from the events I have no doubt that you have encountered.

There is a ton of research that shows that racism, homophobia and transphobia is higher in older people than in younger people (indeed, it's almost a smooth curve*). But that's not really surprising, given that older people are more likely to have grown up in a society where such attitudes were not only less offensive, but often normalised. Let's not forget that the Race Relations Act as we know it was only passed in 1976 - before that it was perfectly legal to have a policy of not employing racial minorities, or to stick a "No Blacks" sign in the window of your B&B.

*although there's a slightly worrying rise in men (and only men) under 25 at the moment.

 

[35B]

There is a ton of research that shows that racism, homophobia and transphobia is higher in older people than in younger people (indeed, it's almost a smooth curve*). But that's not really surprising, given that older people are more likely to have grown up in a society where such attitudes were not only less offensive, but often normalised. Let's not forget that the Race Relations Act as we know it was only passed in 1976 - before that it was perfectly legal to have a policy of not employing racial minorities, or to stick a "No Blacks" sign in the window of your B&B.

*although there's a slightly worrying rise in men (and only men) under 25 at the moment.

I'm aware of that, and accept that as a very general analysis. However, 1976 was 50 years ago, and the Race Relations Act did not come out of nowhere. The greater prevalence of these on this basis is not the same as those being normal within that older popuation.

If the attitudes of the vast majority of the people at my heritage line, the attitudes of the volunteers that I encounter at the heritage lines I have been to as a visitor, and the aforementioned postings on social media are anything to go by, coupled with an actual violent attack against a friend which she reported to BTP are anything to go by, it would seem that making the generalisation about the rail enthusiast community and being social inadequates or just downright having a serious bigotry problem would be less generalisation and more justified statement of fact.

And wouldn't you know it, in the staff room, whenever this or any other political issues get brought up, the same old farts immediately start singing the praises of poor old Nige...

I stated myself to be "a generation" older; you do not convince when you are then very casually ageist ("old farts") in comments that appear to smear all those older than yourself, let alone in your assertions about "social inadequates" or "serious bigotry problem".

More generally, my comment is not denial that these issues exist - I'd be shocked if they don't. It is the assertion that they are generally true that I question, as it does not accord with my own experiences - and where your previous posts have raised reasonable questions about the reliability of extrapolations from individual data points.

 

[D1537]

I'm aware of that, and accept that as a very general analysis. However, 1976 was 50 years ago, and the Race Relations Act did not come out of nowhere. The greater prevalence of these on this basis is not the same as those being normal within that older popuation.

As you say, I don't think anyone's saying it's "normal". To take an example from one large survey, 39% of those born in the 1950s are likely to have negative attitudes to homosexuality, whereas 22% of those born in the 1990s are. However, those views are more prevalent amongst men (44% v 28%) and of course the majority of those working on heritage lines are men.

Obviously taking one metric is simplistic, though; views on these topics are affected not only by age and gender but also by social class, ethnicity and education.

 

[35B]

As you say, I don't think anyone's saying it's "normal". To take an example from one large survey, 39% of those born in the 1950s are likely to have negative attitudes to homosexuality, whereas 22% of those born in the 1990s are. However, those views are more prevalent amongst men (44% v 28%) and of course the majority of those working on heritage lines are men.

Obviously taking one metric is simplistic, though; views on these topics are affected not only by age and gender but also by social class, ethnicity and education.

Very precisely, in this thread, someone is asserting that this level of prejudice resulting in abuse is normal.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe I'm being dense, but what is the t-slur?

I was going to ask that.

 

[Tetragon213]

Maybe I'm being dense, but what is the t-slur?

I was going to ask that.

From GLAAD...

https://glaad.org/reference/trans-terms

See under "defamatory" at the bottom of the page, first term in the header.

 

[styles]

From GLAAD...

https://glaad.org/reference/trans-terms

See under "defamatory" at the bottom of the page, first term in the header.

Fair enough. Not sure I've heard anyone use the term in many years, but I'm not involved in any rail enthusiast staff rooms so

 

[Bald Rick]

From GLAAD...

https://glaad.org/reference/trans-terms

See under "defamatory" at the bottom of the page, first term in the header.

thanks.

Fair enough. Not sure I've heard anyone use the term in many years, but I'm not involved in any rail enthusiast staff rooms so

I have. Albeit in general public conversation, not railway related. I had no idea it was frowned upon.

 

[AlterEgo]

"Tranny" is a common slur in enthusiast circles. It is a slur, although trans people have attempted to reclaim it in recent years. One of the reasons the slur is prevalent in the community is that there are a lot of trans women in particular in the space, and seeing trans women at events or spotting or bashing is more common than in most other walks of life. So, people have more "opportunity" to use it.

I have heard the word being used in a less directly hostile way by cis people but I think it is important to realise trans people consider it a slur. In the 90s the word "Paki" was often used as shorthand for south Asian people and my recollection is that it was a bit naughty but sure so what, your parents said it etc. There is much greater recognition that word is a slur now and "tranny" is on the same journey. It is an unpleasant word that normalises a hostile culture.

By way of anecdote, a lot of much older people use this word as inoffensive shorthand for (transistor) radio, and I have heard its use as a slur across age groups. Nonetheless the situation at @Tetragon213 's heritage railway is unacceptable.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The only time I’ve ever heard that used is by American mechanics to describe a car’s transmission.

 

[Tetragon213]

"Tranny" is a common slur in enthusiast circles. It is a slur, although trans people have attempted to reclaim it in recent years. One of the reasons the slur is prevalent in the community is that there are a lot of trans women in particular in the space, and seeing trans women at events or spotting or bashing is more common than in most other walks of life. So, people have more "opportunity" to use it.

I have heard the word being used in a less directly hostile way by cis people but I think it is important to realise trans people consider it a slur. In the 90s the word "Paki" was often used as shorthand for south Asian people and my recollection is that it was a bit naughty but sure so what, your parents said it etc. There is much greater recognition that word is a slur now and "tranny" is on the same journey. It is an unpleasant word that normalises a hostile culture.

By way of anecdote, a lot of much older people use this word as inoffensive shorthand for (transistor) radio, and I have heard its use as a slur across age groups. Nonetheless the situation at @Tetragon213 's heritage railway is unacceptable.

It's depressingly common everywhere now that certain groups including Reform UK have latched onto trans folk as a scapegoat for their problems. Oftentimes, as a distraction against Nige's many assorted skeletons in his closet, most recently his £5 million bribe.

Before this it was Polish people and asylum seekers. Now it's "illegals" and the trans community. Next it'll be the wider LGBT community and legal immigrants. After that it will be the children of immigrants and anyone they deem "asocial". By the time they run out of scapegoats, the damage will be done, they'll have filled their pockets and be off to the Caymans, and the rest of us will be picking up the pieces for years.

 

[Bald Rick]

By way of anecdote, a lot of much older people use this word as inoffensive shorthand for (transistor) radio, and I have heard its use as a slur across age groups.

Or a Ford Transit.

I have never heard it described or used in a way that could be described as a slur.

 

[35B]

The only time I’ve ever heard that used is by American mechanics to describe a car’s transmission.

Whereas I've heard it many times about portable radios (edit - and Ford Transits), and quite often in the context of transgender. Like the other words @AlterEgo dissects so well, it's a word that's evolved and is used far too often as a form of abuse (I'd challenge "slur" but that's being pedantic). The issue is not with the word itself, but the way that it is used and the offence that it causes those it's used against.

Whether or not I agree with the comments about how widespread it is, the important point is that it is basic bad manners to continue to use a term that is objected to, and that anyone claiming to need to use it because they need a word to use needs to think carefully about whether they're looking for a term of abuse, or a neutral adjective. And, in most cases, I find "person" works really quite well...

 

[styles]

Or a Ford Transit.

I have never heard it described or used in a way that could be described as a slur.

I have heard it used to refer to a Ford Transit in recent years; it's a very long time since I heard anyone use it as a slur. But then if I heard someone using it as a slur I'd challenge them on it and if they persisted I'd disassociate myself from them, so I guess I just don't hang around the kind of people who would use it as a slur.

 

[Tetragon213]

This must be a joke...

Reform’s Tice accused of misinformation after urging people to enjoy heatwaves

Backlash from nurses, medical experts and green campaigners in response to deputy leader dismissing efforts to reach net zero

www.theguardian.com

Yes, this is the deputy of Reform UK telling people to "enjoy the weather" in the wake of that brutal heatwave.

Give me strength...

 

[styles]

This must be a joke...

Reform’s Tice accused of misinformation after urging people to enjoy heatwaves

Backlash from nurses, medical experts and green campaigners in response to deputy leader dismissing efforts to reach net zero

www.theguardian.com

Yes, this is the deputy of Reform UK telling people to "enjoy the weather" in the wake of that brutal heatwave.

Give me strength...

It's a weird one.

As a general statement, I agree with saying, "enjoy the weather". It's not like you or I can control it, so if you're not an at-risk individual, why not head to the beach or go for an outdoor swim, and maybe enjoy your better grape output.

But the context in which he said it is the bizarre thing.

Asked about the recent extreme heat, Tice told a press conference: “Of course, the climate changes, but where is the evidence that net zero is going to stop it? Where is the evidence? There is no evidence.

“Climate change has always happened. It always will. Maybe the smarter thing to do is to adapt to it than think arrogantly that you can stop it.”

He added: “When it’s a bit warm, let’s enjoy it. And if it means that English wine and sparkling wine gets better and better, fantastic. That means we can take on the French – fantastic. Let’s celebrate some of these things rather than just be sort of doom and gloom about it.”

Really it was part of a speech of climate skepticism, a weird dig at the French, and downplaying the 'doom and gloom' (houses burning down, nature being destroyed, excess deaths of both humans and animals).

As a standalone statement though, yes, I think if people are able to enjoy the heatwaves, responsibly, they should. After all, millions of Brits spend money travelling to countries like Spain and France for precisely this kind of weather.

 

[Tetragon213]

It's a weird one.

As a general statement, I agree with saying, "enjoy the weather". It's not like you or I can control it, so if you're not an at-risk individual, why not head to the beach or go for an outdoor swim, and maybe enjoy your better grape output.

But the context in which he said it is the bizarre thing.



Really it was part of a speech of climate skepticism, a weird dig at the French, and downplaying the 'doom and gloom' (houses burning down, nature being destroyed, excess deaths of both humans and animals).

As a standalone statement though, yes, I think if people are able to enjoy the heatwaves, responsibly, they should. After all, millions of Brits spend money travelling to countries like Spain and France for precisely this kind of weather.

The way he and the rest of Reform downplay and outright deny the climate crisis, and even oppose mitigation measures, is at best phenomenally tone deaf and at worst outright malicious.

 

[styles]

The way he and the rest of Reform downplay and outright deny the climate crisis, and even oppose mitigation measures, is at best phenomenally tone deaf and at worst outright malicious.

Agreed, I was just pointing out that, "enjoy the weather", isn't really the problem with his speech; in fact it's the most sensible thing in it.

The Guardian's headline focuses as much about his misinformation as it does the enjoy the heat remark. The climate change misinformation, digs at the French, and downplaying the 'doom and gloom' is the real problem.

 

[Tetragon213]

I do wonder if Tice is simply malicious and in the pocket of the companies who have a vested interest in pushing anti-science views on climate change, or if he is genuinely that deluded that he actually believes what comes out of his mouth.