• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Reform UK discussion

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
2,217
Location
All around the network
Which law do asylum seekers break when they come here to claim asylum? Asylum seekers have the legal right to remain in the UK while their case is being decided. It isn't illegal for them to come here and because the UK does not decide asylum claims outside its own territory it means people claiming it (legally!) have to enter the UK without permission. This is not actually illegal for an asylum seeker to do in practice.
They get infinite appeals rather than one appeal then deported on rejection, which means they stay here indefinitely, and have lawyers from the profesional working class despising folk of Starmer's ilk that help these migrants. This is a big classist issue as well, working class Brits feel forgotten, much like in Trump's America.

Not true. He was the chair of the Fabian Society in 1989-90.

However if you want to play that game the origjnal judge who ruled in favour of the council actually stood to be a Tory MP four times.
On Friday, Lord Justice Bean and two other Court of Appeal judges ruled that an injunction banning the Bell Hotel from housing asylum seekers should be overturned.

The ruling was a legal victory for the Home Office and has prevented the Government’s asylum policy from being plunged into chaos.

The son of High Court judge Sir George Bean, the Cambridge-educated Lord Justice Bean was chair of the 141-year-old Fabian Society from 1989-90.

The society works very closely with Labour, is an affiliated party organisation and its membership is predominantly made up of Labour members. Yvette Cooper, the Home Secretary, also previously served as chair of its commission.

Lord Justice Bean, 71, was also reportedly a member of the Labour Party for at least 28 years before he became a judge.

He served as a treasurer for the Society of Labour Lawyers, which describes itself as a “think tank and affiliated socialist society which provides legal and policy advice to the Labour Party”.
Recused by whom?
Recused himself due to conflict of interest. This man is not impartial. The PM should be demanding a retrial but of course he won't.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,440
Location
Taunton or Kent
Immigration Act 1971 made it an offence to enter the UK without permission.
I'm not an expert, but if that's the latest act it needs updating (along with any other major acts over 50 years old with no successor). It definitely needs better enforcement, as an underground economy thriving off our poorly regulated labour market could easily have rendered the act untenable.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
12,970
Location
Up the creek
Recused himself due to conflict of interest. This man is not impartial. The PM should be demanding a retrial but of course he won't.

The PM should not be interfering and demanding retrials. First Starmer is accused of wrongfully interfering to create a ‘two-tier’ system, now they are demanding that he interferes when the verdict is not what they want.
 

m0ffy

Member
Joined
24 May 2022
Messages
363
Location
Leicestershire
I am not a particular Farage fan ,
However I am strongly leaning towards voting for Reform now , the final breaking of me was the Labour Party looking at increasing my retirement age which is already at 68. NOT A CHANCE ! On top of everything else , higher taxes , my wage again falling well behind inflation making me worse and worse off , the possibility of being heavily taxed when my parents pass away ( they are both working class)
NHS broken , no point in throwing more and more money at it , it needs to be effectively turned off and re-booted!
Police at breaking point , numbers dropping faster than they can recruit , increasing demand, massively underfunded, without law and order you have NOTHING!
It’s a dangerously unstable world so unfortunately we need to spend more on our military which I fully understand.
However what I want tolerate anymore is us spending millions and millions on hotels for asylum seekers on top of everything else they get while me , my family struggle everyday. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

On a side note I find it strange that if a person in England flies the English flag is racism , yet it a Scottish , Welsh , Irish person does it , it’s patriotic. Very confusing

So, your complaint relates to a whole lot of stuff that goes back at least 14 years, yet it’s entirely the current government’s fault for not fixing it all in 13 months. As for the state pension age - why do you think it’s in any way sustainable for taxpayers to fund a 20 year retirement? Working people can’t afford to have children, yet we’re expected to fund ever longer retirements at the expense of everything else.
 

Gooner18

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
628
So, your complaint relates to a whole lot of stuff that goes back at least 14 years, yet it’s entirely the current government’s fault for not fixing it all in 13 months. As for the state pension age - why do you think it’s in any way sustainable for taxpayers to fund a 20 year retirement? Working people can’t afford to have children, yet we’re expected to fund ever longer retirements at the expense of everything else.
The main problem that’s caused it is the baby boomers retiring at 50-55 leaving a massive black hole , it’s meant to be a better life for each generation, not going backwards like we are.
We can afford to spend millions a day on hotels but expect the working person to keep sacrificing. NOT ANYMORE !
Of course the other problems have been built up over years , more than 14 imo. But Labour are in power now. I’m fed up with them all blaming each other, both Labour and conservatives are to blame for the mess we are in.
On top of all this we have a bulging welfare bill which can’t continue, people not working, yet the attack the pension age.
 

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
3,272
Location
North West
Yes, that is a danger in some places. However, I would expect to see many people voting for the party most likely to defeat the far-right, even if that means not voting for the party they most want to win, but it may not always be obvious in some places where that is.
In many places, voting for the incumbent MP should keep Reform out.
 

Welly

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2013
Messages
669
I am not a particular Farage fan ,
However I am strongly leaning towards voting for Reform now , ......

NHS broken , no point in throwing more and more money at it , it needs to be effectively turned off and re-booted!
How is the NHS broken? What's your experience of it? How would you turn off and re-boot the NHS? I can see the Faragist party abolishing the NHS and making us all pay stupidly expensive insurance premiums per month for crappy coverage just like the US have - is that the reboot you want?
 

m0ffy

Member
Joined
24 May 2022
Messages
363
Location
Leicestershire
How is the NHS broken? What's your experience of it? How would you turn off and re-boot the NHS? I can see the Faragist party abolishing the NHS and making us all pay stupidly expensive insurance premiums per month for crappy coverage just like the US have - is that the reboot you want?
It fits the narrative. Everything’s broken, let’s blame it on foreigners and flog everything to our wealthy mates.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,345
Location
LBK
Immigration Act 1971 made it an offence to enter the UK without permission.
As I've mentioned it isnt actually illegal in practice to enter the UK to claim asylum. That is why asylum seekers aren't prosecuted for doing it. Under the same act they are granted right of abode while their claim is being processed. This is in the Act because international law protects asylum seekers' rights while inside a host country, and effectively regularises their entry.

That is why you cannot just immediately deport people who arrive on small boats. That's the entire crux. It isn't actually illegal in any meaningful way other than being in a statute which immediately contradicts itself by granting rights to that class of person.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,581
IHowever I am strongly leaning towards voting for Reform now , the final breaking of me was the Labour Party looking at increasing my retirement age which is already at 68. NOT A CHANCE !
So two things:
1 - Life expectancy has increased and so people are living longer. That means more years we have to support people in retirement. So something has to change.
2 - The tripple lock, and seeming inability for governments to make changes to benefits pensioners get without tantrums being thrown, mean the money we spend on pensioners just keeps going up and up and up. With less younger people each generation, something has to give. So far we've brought in people who can work and pay taxes to prop up our high spending on pensioners but people like you clearly don't want that so what's your answer?
On top of everything else , higher taxes , my wage again falling well behind inflation making me worse and worse off , the possibility of being heavily taxed when my parents pass away ( they are both working class)
NHS broken , no point in throwing more and more money at it , it needs to be effectively turned off and re-booted!
Police at breaking point , numbers dropping faster than they can recruit , increasing demand, massively underfunded, without law and order you have NOTHING!
It’s a dangerously unstable world so unfortunately we need to spend more on our military which I fully understand.
However what I want tolerate anymore is us spending millions and millions on hotels for asylum seekers on top of everything else they get while me , my family struggle everyday. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
We had 14 years of Tory governments implementing policies that are causing the issues you talk about. Asylum seekers are not the cause of that.
On a side note I find it strange that if a person in England flies the English flag is racism , yet it a Scottish , Welsh , Irish person does it , it’s patriotic. Very confusing
The issue isnt flying the flag. The issue is the views of the people who fly the flag and why they are doing it. Ive no problem with say people currently flying it to support the womens rugby team in the world cup right now (or indeed the mens team, or either football team etc). I do have a problem with people currently flying it as an anti immigrant protest.
The PM should be demanding a retrial but of course he won't.
Not at all. The PM should stay totally out of court cases. The idea that the head of state should meddle in the courts is terrifying, and also is the exact kind of thing the right would throw a huge tantrum about if it was done against their interests so it shouldn't be done in their interests either.
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,345
Location
LBK
They get infinite appeals rather than one appeal then deported on rejection, which means they stay here indefinitely, and have lawyers from the profesional working class despising folk of Starmer's ilk that help these migrants. This is a big classist issue as well
You have more in common with the asylum seeker than with Starmer.

The PM should be demanding a retrial but of course he won't.
Why would he? I'm confused as to whose interests you believe the judge was biased in favour of.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,087
Location
Redcar
They get infinite appeals rather than one appeal then deported on rejection, which means they stay here indefinitely, and have lawyers from the profesional working class despising folk of Starmer's ilk that help these migrants.

They don't get infinite appeals (nobody does in any variety of Tribunal/Court within the UK).

If the Home Office makes a decision which an applicant disagrees with you can apply for an appeal to the First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) on basically any ground that you fancy (though if you would like to win it is wise to advance relevant ones that show how the Home Office decision failed to apply the law correctly).

If you lose at the First-tier Tribunal you can apply to the Upper Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber). But you can only appeal to the UT if the FTT's decision was legally flawed. It is no longer sufficient that you disagree with the Home Office decision, you have to show that the FTT decision was legally flawed. For instance it did not apply the correct law, or wrongly interpreted the law, or there was a procedural irregularity, etc etc. So before you can have a substantive appeal to the UT you have to apply for permission to the FTT, if they refuse you can apply to the UT directly for permission to appeal. If the UT refuses permission that's basically it. Your appeals are over the decision stands. If permission is granted then you can actually proceed to appeal to the UT.

If you win at the UT you might be remitted back to the FTT for them to have another go at getting it right or alternatively the UT might make the final decision there and then (depends on the actual issue with the initial appeal and the information available to the UT judge).

If you lose then you can appeal to the Court of Appeal but, again, only if you can show that the UT/FTT made a material error in the application of the law or a procedural issue and there is a realistic prospect of success. That you don't like the decision is insufficient grounds to appeal. You'd apply first to the UT and if they refused, you can apply directly to the CoA. If the CoA refuse then that's it. Your appeal is dead the decision stands.

If you are granted permission but then lose at the CoA stage then, you can appeal even further to the Supreme Court but same hurdles apply. Permission must be granted and will only be granted if there's an error in the law not just because you don't like the decision. If permission is not granted the appeal is dead, the decision stands.

Theoretically if the Supreme Court refuse you could probably go off to the European Court of Human Rights but the number of cases that are going to be granted permission to appeal to ECtHR is going to be vanishingly small so in reality the buck stops at the Supreme Court.

Now, you can argue that there are too many steps but I would note that firstly, there are not infinite appeals. There is a clear appeal system with specific steps along the way. But more importantly after your appeal to the FTT you'll only get further appeals (to the UT and above) if you can show that the decision made was wrong in law. Doesn't matter if you think the decision was dumb and wrong. Plenty of dumb and wrong decisions are made perfectly legally everyday. And that applies at each stage of the process up the hierarchy.

So the appeal system acts as a filter preventing meritless appeals from occurring. Even if every asylum seeker appeals their Home Office asylum decision to the FTT (which I don't believe is the case), only a fraction of those that then lose at FTT will be able to appeal further. Most that lose will lose at that point and their appeal will end, the Home Office can then remove them (and if they don't that's a Home Office issue, not an issue of the Tribunal system). Plus even a win at the UT stage doesn't necessarily mean a win overall. Perfectly possible to win at UT, have a fresh appeal in front of a new FTT and for that FTT make a correct negative decision.

Sadly, of course, that system is tremendously poorly understood (and it seems that those who are most keen to whip up ferver against asylum seekers are least likely to be interested in explaining it) as with so much of the Court and Tribunal system so people get it into their heads that all those rejected asylum claimants are swanning around appealing willy nilly indefinitely delaying their departure. Of course the real reason so many of their departures are delayed after a loss is due to the rank incompetence of the Home Office rather than repeated appeals.

Anyway, apologies for the wall of text but I get frustrated when I see easily disprovable information being bandied about regarding the Court and Tribunal system (of whatever flavour).
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,581
Just to give an idea of what people like me don't like about the current flag stuff and what we are worried about. A Chinese takeaway in York was vandalised yesterday with the windows painted all white with st George crosses on them, the word Chinese on their sign being covered and vile racist comments written on the walls. These are the kind of people who are "flying the flag" as part of this. These are the kind of people who the more moderate right wingers and people pushing this flag campaign have enabled and encouraged. It's disgusting.
 
Last edited:

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,087
Location
Redcar
Just to give an idea of what people like me don't like about the current flag stuff and what we are worried about. A Chinese takeaway in York was vandalised yesterday with the windows painted all white with st George crosses on them, the word Chinese on their sign being covered and vile racist comments written on the walls. These are the kind of people who are "flying the flag" as part of this. These are the kind of people who the more moderate right wingers and people pushing this flag campaign have enabled and encouraged. It's disgusting.
50p says that at least some of the people involved probably were customers in the past as well. And that the same people would complain about how they can't get Chinese or Indian takeaways any more if those people did "go home" (ignoring that for majority home is the UK).
 

JGurney

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2021
Messages
415
Location
Saltburn / Danby
The main problem that’s caused it [the rising state pension age] is the baby boomers retiring at 50-55 leaving a massive black hole ,
What is the connection? People retiring at 50 are doing it relying on privately funded pensions or other income, not the state pension (apart from military pensioners, but while military pensions are of course funded by the state, that is from a separate budget to the state pension). They continue to pay taxes on their income, etc, so I do not follow how you think they are causing the state pension age to rise. That is mainly a consequence of rising life expectancy.
 

Gooner18

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
628
What is the connection? People retiring at 50 are doing it relying on privately funded pensions or other income, not the state pension (apart from military pensioners, but while military pensions are of course funded by the state, that is from a separate budget to the state pension). They continue to pay taxes on their income, etc, so I do not follow how you think they are causing the state pension age to rise. That is mainly a consequence of rising life expectancy.
Incorrect, you don’t pay national insurance on a private pension, income tax yes , so they are no longer paying into that part of the system 15 years or more earlier
 

m0ffy

Member
Joined
24 May 2022
Messages
363
Location
Leicestershire
Incorrect, you don’t pay national insurance on a private pension, income tax yes , so they are no longer paying into that part of the system 15 years or more earlier
So what? NI on pension income would be insignificant, and anyone with a large enough pension to retire at 55 has probably paid much more NI than average over their career. It certainly wouldn’t be enough to cover the billions spent on paying a triple-locked state pension to 68-70 year olds.
 

Gooner18

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
628
So what? NI on pension income would be insignificant, and anyone with a large enough pension to retire at 55 has probably paid much more NI than average over their career. It certainly wouldn’t be enough to cover the billions spent on paying a triple-locked state pension to 68-70 year olds.
That’s the thing tho. A lot of them did not pay enough into their pots. They were all offered early retirement for various reasons.
Just to confirm you’re saying baby boomers who retired early are having less of an affect on the economy than a pensioner retiring at 65-66?!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,712
It's the structural problems of the country like lack of growth, high sovreign debt, spending cuts and tax rises

Indeed, that is the major problem facing this country, ie the state of our finances. Nothing to do with asylum seekers.

makes it especially unjustifiable to be prioritising the right of people who broke the law by entering the UK over British people.

How are asylum seekers prioritised, exactly?
 

Cloud Strife

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
2,963
Of course the real reason so many of their departures are delayed after a loss is due to the rank incompetence of the Home Office rather than repeated appeals.

The lengthy delays in even getting a hearing are also part of the problem. It shouldn't be rocket science to throw money at the problem in order to unblock the legal system, but frankly speaking, everything about the asylum system is so completely broken. People are waiting up to a year to receive a decision on their appeal from the First-tier Tribunal, and even if your application is successful, it can take up to 12 weeks just to get a visa or residence permit from the Home Office after a successful appeal.

The initial decision could and should be made within days, and any appeal from the original decision should take place within no more than a month.
 

m0ffy

Member
Joined
24 May 2022
Messages
363
Location
Leicestershire
That’s the thing tho. A lot of them did not pay enough into their pots. They were all offered early retirement for various reasons.
Just to confirm you’re saying baby boomers who retired early are having less of an affect on the economy than a pensioner retiring at 65-66?!

That’s a problem for their pension scheme/employer, not the tax payer - they’re not getting the state pension or any related benefits until state pension age. If they can afford it, crack on. You seem to be conflating two separate things.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,087
Location
Redcar
The lengthy delays in even getting a hearing are also part of the problem. It shouldn't be rocket science to throw money at the problem in order to unblock the legal system, but frankly speaking, everything about the asylum system is so completely broken. People are waiting up to a year to receive a decision on their appeal from the First-tier Tribunal, and even if your application is successful, it can take up to 12 weeks just to get a visa or residence permit from the Home Office after a successful appeal.

The initial decision could and should be made within days, and any appeal from the original decision should take place within no more than a month.

Oh absolutely agreed. A lot of this is just the long running fallout from gutting all sorts of bits of the state back in the early 2010s. The Courts & Tribunals Service has never really recovered from that and so backlogs are just endemic (quite apart from various other issues such as a disintegrating court estate) and the Home Office, never known for being a paragon of administrative virtue, is in a similar state.

But persuading anyone, let alone the HM Treasury (see my signature :lol:), that these are worthy targets of investment to fix a bunch of chronic issues is near impossible task. Though at least the backlog at the Home Office is slowly coming down though considering the volume of successful appeals that suggests that their bringing the backlog down by just sticking a finger in the air and guessing if a claim has merit or not.
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,802
Location
Newport
‘Boomer’ (just to satisfy the usual gerontophobics) working = 1 person paying tax & NI

Retired person under 66 on private pension plus another person appointed to their resultant vacancy = 2 paying tax and 1 paying NI.

As an aside, those retiring early on a private pension will also find themselves returning a chunk of their state pension to the treasury in income tax.

Just to counter some of the cobblers on here.
 

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
2,217
Location
All around the network
How are asylum seekers prioritised, exactly?
Hotels, private tenancies and council houses and any kind of accommodation is being paid for by local councils rather than tents and sleeping bags in Dover while council tax gets hiked even more and people are told government can't afford anything. We need a migrant deterrance strategy similar to Denmark, where if the Foreign Office deems their country and local region of origin as safe from danger, they can return. Hardline Islamism (i.e. in Afghanistan and Sudan) is no excuse to not return.

If the economy was growing and people were better off, we'd all grumble at the headlines and get on with our lives, ie. like Germany back in 2015 when Merkel opened the floodgates to 1m Syrians, but with Labour failing to tame persistently high inflation from high energy costs and failing to get us out of a tax - inflation doom cycle heading to stagflation, mass migration isn't a good look. Then you have 800k people a year entering the UK, it should be about 200-250k at most.

They don't get infinite appeals (nobody does in any variety of Tribunal/Court within the UK).

...

Anyway, apologies for the wall of text but I get frustrated when I see easily disprovable information being bandied about regarding the Court and Tribunal system (of whatever flavour).
I read your whole post but you're saying the reality is you get several appeals but they take so long that effectively migrants stay for years pending decisions. Still this can all be avoided.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,712
Hotels, private tenancies and council houses and any kind of accommodation is being paid for by local councils rather than tents and sleeping bags in Dover while council tax gets hiked even more and people are told government can't afford anything.

And how is that “prioritised”?
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,345
Location
LBK
Hotels, private tenancies and council houses and any kind of accommodation is being paid for by local councils rather than tents and sleeping bags in Dover
Why should they be put in tents and sleeping bags? The state doesn't need to be cruel. We can argue for a compassionate and empathetic state which applies to everyone. In your case, "the cruelty is the point", which is the founding principle of too much of our politics.

That doesn't mean that everyone should be admitted, or even most people. It means people should be dealt with humanely and fairly and with due speed and diligence, whether they are 40 years old born and bred here and applying for Universal Credit, or an asylum seeker asking the country to shelter them.

The relentless resorting to aesthetic and performative cruelty on the right is a result of you having the empathy drained from you. Be, and ask for, better.
 

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,124
Location
Elginshire
Hardline Islamism (i.e. in Afghanistan and Sudan) is no excuse to not return.
It's nice to see that compassion for fellow human beings is alive and well. :rolleyes:

There are quite a few reasons why I would't want to be sent back to a hardline Islamic country. Being LGBQTI+ is one example. Being a woman is another, especially one who is well educated. I also wouldn't fancy having a religion that isn't Islam, or even being a follower of Islam who doesn't follow the stricter interpretations.

Are you quite happy to send people back to be persecuted at best and, in the worst case scenario, killed?
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,581
while council tax gets hiked even more
Of course the reasons that council tax has increased in recent years are largely related to Tory government policies since 2010. Cutting central government funding to councils means they have to raise money from elsewhere. Add to that the increased spending on adult social care and special educational needs (which really shouldn't be local government responsilities) and that is why council tax has been going up. Literally nothing to do with immigrants or asylum seekers etc.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,372
Location
The Fens
‘Boomer’ (just to satisfy the usual gerontophobics) working = 1 person paying tax & NI

Retired person under 66 on private pension plus another person appointed to their resultant vacancy = 2 paying tax and 1 paying NI.

As an aside, those retiring early on a private pension will also find themselves returning a chunk of their state pension to the treasury in income tax.

Just to counter some of the cobblers on here.
This is the lump of labour fallacy and, to use your phrase, it is cobblers, because the amount of employment in the economy is not fixed.

What is best is for the economy is for the "boomer" to be working, earning a salary that is bigger than their pension, and paying tax and national insurance, plus the "person appointed to the resultant vacancy" also working, in another job, and also paying tax and national insurance.

That's 2 people earning both paying income tax and NI, versus 1 person paying tax and NI, but the other paying less income tax and no NI.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
8,005
Location
Surrey
Farage is a one trick pony and whilst im not dismissing the migrant boat problem its far from the biggest issues that this country needs to tackle. Unless Labour adopt a radical response, which they wont, they aren't going to do any better than anyone else in dealing with the small boats. Thus there is no point trying to outdo Farage it wont work and backfire on them. Just leave him to rant on and take the fight to him over the NHS, education and Europe especially the latter. Farage promoted Brexit as taking back control well it certainly hasn't on borders keep pushing that line along with the impact on the economy.

In regards to opinion polls they are purely reactionary with 3.5yrs before next GE you can read nothing into it in my view.
 

Top