Reform UK discussion

[ainsworth74]

They aren’t Little Englander. They’re xenophobic. A lot of it about in Scotland.

The other reason is they represent a big red reset button for people who have been failed by austerity and Britain’s declining standard of living, at least some of which is due to institutional rot.

Precisely. I think there is a stand of Little Englanderism to the party but I think that's more amongst some supporters. The party at large is more xenophobic than anything. But the key thing is that to a large group of people they represent a red button that they're willing to press because nothing else is working and everything seems to be getting worse. What have they, in their minds, got left to lose from one last throw of the dice?

Even still I find it hard to understand why someone would vote for a party that will only make things even worse.

I'd have expected the far left to grow in popularity, if anything.

And I fail to understand why anyone apart from the far-right would find Reform appealing.

I just don't get their supporters' way of thinking. It's not logical. Reform offer nothing to sort things out. Personally, they frighten me. They stand for the polar opposite of my own views in just about every aspect. Enough even to consider possible relocation if there was still a reasonable chance of them getting in two years down the road.

Yes, but if you'll forgive me, you're quite the lefty so you're coming from a very different view of the world. So it may not make sense to you but when you've grown up in Grangetown (eighth most deprived ward in the country), when there's bugger all opportunities available locally other than retail, care work, warehousing, or similar (and we've just found out 300+ good jobs are about to go as Sabic is closing a plant later this year), when you can't get in to see your GP, when the cost of living continues to spiral upwards but your wages (or benefits or both) aren't keeping pace, when the Tories just seemed to make everything worse for fourteen years, when Labour said they'd sort it but the decline hasn't even seemed to slow down let alone stop or reverse and really you remember them from last time and yeah they were better than the Tories sure but Grangetown has been deprived for decades so isn't like they really fixed it back then anyway.

Of course you'll vote for the party that isn't any of the above. They've all failed you, your family and your local area for decades.

I live here and I promise you whilst there are definitely xenophobes and racists here most people are just fed up with their lives being crap and no political party seems to give a damn about actually trying to help them. Most seem to just want to make their life worse. They will therefore roll the dice.

I agree, it's a bad move, Reform will trash the country even worse. But unless Labour can actually start to communicate some sort of positive vision and can actually start to at least improve the vibes of living in this country, Reform will do well. It doesn't need to be perfect with milk and honey flowing freely and streets paved with gold. It would probably be enough if people felt that their local area looked tidy and looked after, that the roads weren't filled with potholes, that they knew they'd be able to see a GP when they needed one, and that they could afford their rent, utilities, food bill and a few luxuries without losing sleep.

What part of Labours messaging gives the impression that that's what they're going to achieve? And without that. Reform will do well in 2029 because people are fundamentally sick of the state of this country.

I just don't understand how those people can't see that maybe voting Tory for 14 years and voting for Brexit has made things so bad that theres no chance any party could improve it in the year Labour have had!

It goes deeper and longer than that. Plenty of these areas were struggling for far longer than just 2010 onwards. The Brexit vote in 2016 was the first real cry for help that broke through the bubble that had formed in parts of the country that were doing okay or better. That's why these people are being seduced by Reform. They voted Labour all their lives and things didn't really get all that much better, they tried voting Brexit and Boris and things got worse and now they've tried Labour again and they've not even slowed down the decline. I don't think most people expect things to be fixed. They do expect that at least the vibes would be more positive.

Indeed, I do sometimes feel that sometimes we try to make excuses for Reform support. If you don't believe Labour or the Tories care enough about you, why not vote for a more left-wing party - as they are probably going to be the only people that will care more than the mainstream parties. The likes of Farage certainly won't, IMO.

It might be comforting to pretend that all Reform voters are just xenophobes and racists that just need educating to understand that the immigrants are the problem but that's a recipe for losing the next General Election because that isn't the issue we're facing. It's part of the issue for sure. But unless Labour (or someone else) actually make people feel more positive about their lives and the country in general we're sunk.

 

[styles]

Indeed, I do sometimes feel that many are trying to make excuses for Reform supporters. If you don't believe Labour or the Tories care enough about you, why not vote for a more left-wing party - as they are probably going to be the only people that will care more than the mainstream parties. The likes of Farage certainly won't, IMO.

But would a 'left-wing'* party really appeal to Reform voters? While Reform do have policies in a number of areas, the top agreeable statements reported by their voters are:

Young people today do not have enough respect for traditional British values 89%

Migrants coming to the United Kingdom across the English Channel should all be immediately removed from the United Kingdom and prevented from ever returning 86%

The sentences that the courts hand down to people who have been convicted of crimes are not harsh enough 85%

Multiculturalism has made the UK worse 78%

What do Reform UK voters believe?

YouGov shines a light on the backers of the insurgent party

yougov.co.uk

The Green Party, the SWP, etc aren't going to promote those stances.

* a bit of an aside but I'm not convinced 'left-wing' or 'right-wing' really mean much these days. Speaking of Scotland for example, the Scottish Socialist Party is economically left-wing, but less socially liberal than the Lib Dems. There is not really a vocal enough party which is as socially authoritarian as Reform voters would like, while offering the 'left-wing' economic principles of say wealth redistribution. The closest we may find on that front is 'left-wing' parties who are critical of defence strategy, e.g. NATO.

 

[nw1]

But would a 'left-wing'* party really appeal to Reform voters? While Reform do have policies in a number of areas, the top agreeable statements reported by their voters are:

What I was trying to say is that one reason given for Reform support is that people were struggling financially and public services are in a poor state.
Therefore, a left-wing party is surely the obvious choice to tackle the problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2025 ==

I agree, it's a bad move, Reform will trash the country even worse. But unless Labour can actually start to communicate some sort of positive vision and can actually start to at least improve the vibes of living in this country, Reform will do well. It doesn't need to be perfect with milk and honey flowing freely and streets paved with gold. It would probably be enough if people felt that their local area looked tidy and looked after, that the roads weren't filled with potholes, that they knew they'd be able to see a GP when they needed one, and that they could afford their rent, utilities, food bill and a few luxuries without losing sleep.

How will Reform ensure people can see their GP though?

One of the theories I've heard bandied around is that Reform might not be adverse to privatising the NHS.

Likewise, how will Reform ensure that people can afford their bills?

My guess is they will do precisely zero to tackle any of the problems. They'll just implement extremely hardline immigration restrictions, IMO, ban Pride and Ukraine flags from flying on official buildings, and hope that people will like them for those reasons, even if it makes things worse - for example a lack of immigration hurting the economy and leading to a worker shortage in some sectors.

 

[styles]

What I was trying to say is that one reason given for Reform support is that people were struggling financially and public services are in a poor state.
Therefore, a left-wing party is surely the obvious choice to tackle the problems.

But those (current) parties in the UK are socially more liberal - they're in favour of reform to the justice system to focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, they're more pro-immigration, etc.

If Reform voters ranked the state of public services as their top concern, rather than British values and immigration policy, then I might see it. Reform stand for tighter borders, the death penalty, banning gender reassignment. The Green Party of England & Wales aren't going to offer that.

 

[nw1]

Yes, but if you'll forgive me, you're quite the lefty

I'm not all that much of a lefty, I don't think

For example I believe in a mixed economy and thus that there is a role for both the public and the private sector.

 

[jon0844]

@styles "Young people today do not have enough respect for traditional British values 89%" applies just as much to British (and by that I'm saying multi-generational white British) people as any other group IMO.

A common post on anything on social media when a black or brown person commits a crime is 'usual suspect' but there's a shocking silence when just as many videos show white people arrested for crime. Do these people respect our values when they're anti-social, steal and abuse others verbally and physically? Are they exceptions because they're 'one of us' in their minds?

 

[Harpo]

Nigel 'Man of the People' Farage has even copied the idea of having a 'gold card' style citizenship scheme. Pay up and you're all sorted. Definitely something that resonates with all of us plebs.

Nige doesn’t mind people arriving on large boats.

 

[nw1]

But those (current) parties in the UK are socially more liberal - they're in favour of reform to the justice system to focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, they're more pro-immigration, etc.

If Reform voters ranked the state of public services as their top concern, rather than British values and immigration policy, then I might see it. Reform stand for tighter borders, the death penalty, banning gender reassignment. The Green Party of England & Wales aren't going to offer that.

This does counter @ainsworth74's main reasons for part of the Reform support, though.

 

[styles]

@styles "Young people today do not have enough respect for traditional British values 89%" applies just as much to British (and by that I'm saying multi-generational white British) people as any other group IMO.

A common post on anything on social media when a black or brown person commits a crime is 'usual suspect' but there's a shocking silence when just as many videos show white people arrested for crime. Do these people respect our values when they're anti-social, steal and abuse others verbally and physically? Are they exceptions because they're 'one of us' in their minds?

Confirmation bias and social media algorithms. The more they engage with videos showing minorities committing crimes, or comments about the 'usual suspects', the more of it they'll see.

Add to that politics feeling more divisive/polarising than ever, and people just dig their heels in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2025 ==

This does counter @ainsworth74's main reasons for likely Reform support, though.

Indeed, I disagree with @ainsworth74 that there's more to it than immigration. No doubt their other policies/values will affect their support, but their support, according to their own voters, is mainly around immigration. I sometimes see Farage, Yusef, et al talking about other issues, but the overwhelming content I see about them is 'stop the boats' and 'DOGE for councils'.

Of course this is rooted in disenfranchisement over the past 15 years. But they've been convinced that immigration is what's causing the financial issues for example.

 

[Gloster]

Unfortunately, the last forty or so years have embedded the attitude in many people’s minds that left-wing parties will take their money and give it to others. They want other people’s money to be given to them and Reform is promising this.

People quickly notice the negative things that a party in power has to do, but are much slower to notice the positive ones. Reform is in the convenient position of being able to promise all sorts of lovely things, but not having to carry out any unpopular measures.

 

[ainsworth74]

How will Reform ensure people can see their GP though?

One of the theories I've heard bandied around is that Reform might not be adverse to privatising the NHS.

Likewise, how will Reform ensure that people can afford their bills?

My guess is they will do precisely zero to tackle any of the problems. They'll just implement extremely hardline immigration restrictions, IMO, ban Pride and Ukraine flags from flying on official buildings, and hope that people will like them for those reasons, even if it makes things worse - for example a lack of immigration hurting the economy and leading to a worker shortage in some sectors.

Well duh, of course they won't fix these problems. If anything they'll make them worse.

But that isn't going to stop people voting for them because their lives are crap, have been crap, and continue to be crap whilst not a single current political party appears to have any plan or ability to improve the situation. Fear of immigration is a helpful wedge issue that helps drive people towards Reform absolutely. But Labour going harder and harder on immigration whilst the country continues to collapse isn't going to deal with Reform because the key underlying driving force for Reform voters is that everything is terrible and nothing works and they cannot see it ever getting better. The system is broken. And it's broken what have they got to lose voting for Reform the party that promises to shake things up?

People are pretty damn hopeless out here now and it's going to be a serious problem.

They'll vote Reform as a last ditch "What have we got to lose?", it'll get even worse because Reform have no ideas, and then I worry what will happen after that.

Luke Tryl (Director of the pollster More in Common) posted on BlueSky the other day along these lines:

This from @patrickmaguire.bsky.social captures UK politics in 2025 better than anything I’ve read & this para hits it on the head. People we speak to every week in focus groups largely don’t give a stuff about left and right, they want life to be less of a struggle https://www.thetimes.com/comment/co...ate-lies-with-strivers-and-grafters-j8qf0w3ls

And will vote for the party or person that can provide that - and exactly this those complacently dismissing Faragism as unworkable are missing the point - the public don’t think the status quo is workable so anything else is better even if risky.

If Reform can pitch their politics as unrigging the system to help ordinary people a wealth tax Robin Hood pitch will be a compelling offer and Starmer will have to show the public his government can offer something better.

Luke Tryl (@luketryl.bsky.social)

This from @patrickmaguire.bsky.social captures UK politics in 2025 better than anything I’ve read & this para hits it on the head. People we speak to every week in focus groups largely don’t give a stuff about left and right, they want life to be less of a struggle...

bsky.app

Yeah, people are really upset with small boats and immigration. I think that net migration has been too high the past few years. And that is driving some people towards to the avowedly anti-immigration party. Yep, 100%. But there is more at play here than just xenophobia and a distaste for the forrins and trying to pretend otherwise is going to lose the next General Election. Labour are going to have to make people feel better about their lives and the direction the country is going in. If they do that the worries about immigration and small boats will melt back into the background where it exercises the small minority of hardcore racists.

 

[JamesT]

What I was trying to say is that one reason given for Reform support is that people were struggling financially and public services are in a poor state.
Therefore, a left-wing party is surely the obvious choice to tackle the problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2025 ==



How will Reform ensure people can see their GP though?

One of the theories I've heard bandied around is that Reform might not be adverse to privatising the NHS.

Likewise, how will Reform ensure that people can afford their bills?

I would say most people associate left-wing parties with higher taxes. The worst off may get more back, but if you're struggling then having the government take away more of your money won't be appealing. We've also seen with the increase in National Insurance how that has been depressing the jobs market.

Fundamental reform of the NHS has to be considered. It spends an ever-increasing proportion of the budget with little sign of improvement. The Left normally bring up the bogeyman of the US health service as the apparent goal, but Farage has very clearly been comparing with European health systems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fundamental reform of the NHS has to be considered. It spends an ever-increasing proportion of the budget with little sign of improvement. The Left normally bring up the bogeyman of the US health service as the apparent goal, but Farage has very clearly been comparing with European health systems.

The thing is Farage has form (as do many politicians) for being a manipulative liar.

This being the case, and given his financial interests, he may bleat about European social insurance systems but that clearly isn't what he will do.

Were the Lib Dems to propose such a system (and let's be fair, I support us going that way) I'd believe them. But Farage? No.

 

[nw1]

Precisely. I think there is a stand of Little Englanderism to the party but I think that's more amongst some supporters. The party at large is more xenophobic than anything. But the key thing is that to a large group of people they represent a red button that they're willing to press because nothing else is working and everything seems to be getting worse. What have they, in their minds, got left to lose from one last throw of the dice?


Yes, but if you'll forgive me, you're quite the lefty so you're coming from a very different view of the world. So it may not make sense to you but when you've grown up in Grangetown (eighth most deprived ward in the country), when there's bugger all opportunities available locally other than retail, care work, warehousing, or similar (and we've just found out 300+ good jobs are about to go as Sabic is closing a plant later this year), when you can't get in to see your GP, when the cost of living continues to spiral upwards but your wages (or benefits or both) aren't keeping pace, when the Tories just seemed to make everything worse for fourteen years, when Labour said they'd sort it but the decline hasn't even seemed to slow down let alone stop or reverse and really you remember them from last time and yeah they were better than the Tories sure but Grangetown has been deprived for decades so isn't like they really fixed it back then anyway.

Of course you'll vote for the party that isn't any of the above. They've all failed you, your family and your local area for decades.

I live here and I promise you whilst there are definitely xenophobes and racists here most people are just fed up with their lives being crap and no political party seems to give a damn about actually trying to help them. Most seem to just want to make their life worse. They will therefore roll the dice.

I agree, it's a bad move, Reform will trash the country even worse. But unless Labour can actually start to communicate some sort of positive vision and can actually start to at least improve the vibes of living in this country, Reform will do well. It doesn't need to be perfect with milk and honey flowing freely and streets paved with gold. It would probably be enough if people felt that their local area looked tidy and looked after, that the roads weren't filled with potholes, that they knew they'd be able to see a GP when they needed one, and that they could afford their rent, utilities, food bill and a few luxuries without losing sleep.

What part of Labours messaging gives the impression that that's what they're going to achieve? And without that. Reform will do well in 2029 because people are fundamentally sick of the state of this country.



It goes deeper and longer than that. Plenty of these areas were struggling for far longer than just 2010 onwards. The Brexit vote in 2016 was the first real cry for help that broke through the bubble that had formed in parts of the country that were doing okay or better. That's why these people are being seduced by Reform. They voted Labour all their lives and things didn't really get all that much better, they tried voting Brexit and Boris and things got worse and now they've tried Labour again and they've not even slowed down the decline. I don't think most people expect things to be fixed. They do expect that at least the vibes would be more positive.


It might be comforting to pretend that all Reform voters are just xenophobes and racists that just need educating to understand that the immigrants are the problem but that's a recipe for losing the next General Election because that isn't the issue we're facing. It's part of the issue for sure. But unless Labour (or someone else) actually make people feel more positive about their lives and the country in general we're sunk.

Some interesting points, but a couple of questions:

a) you mention the UK but is this not an international issue? Many countries, from what I gather, are going through a period of austerity right now due to the actions of Russia and Middle Eastern players in addition to the aftermath of Covid. And to be honest, the far-right is a problem across much of Europe, to be honest. So presumably other countries have the same problem. Germany appears to have staved off the threat of the AfD by taking something of an anti-immigration approach without veering too far to the right. Is that a useful comparator?

b) what of the possibly very strong tactical anti-Reform vote? 30% of people might support Reform, but perhaps 40% or 50% are horrified of the prospect of a Reform government. I can see tactical alliances perhaps keeping them out - heck, you could even have long-term liberals/"lefties" voting Tory in order to do so. I can say that I personally would be prepared to vote Tory to keep Reform out, and I've never been a fan of the Tories. I can see that coordinated and organised anti-Reform campaigns could keep them out. There is, I suspect, a lot of deep fear of Reform amongst many of us and if that exceeds their support, there is every chance that the are defeated, even if we end up with some strange coalition (Lab-Con?).

 

[jon0844]

And to be honest, the far-right is a problem across much of Europe, to be honest. So presumably other countries have the same problem. Germany appears to have staved off the threat of the AfD by taking something of an anti-immigration approach without veering too far to the right. Is that a useful comparator?

Labour is talking about being harsher on immigration, but one factor is that a lot of Reform voters (and indeed Brexit voters who shouted nasty things to EU citizens the day after the result along the lines of 'go home, you lost') is that they want to deport people already here. They're almost certainly loving what Trump is doing (which isn't just rounding up criminals to deport, but going onto farms and into Home Depot to deport people working and paying taxes).

It's very much a continuation of parties like the BNP that wanted to send foreigners (and this will mostly be black and brown people, let's be honest) 'home'. And many don't believe that someone being born here is enough.

Labour isn't going to be offering to do that, nor the Tories. So, if people want this then they're going to vote Reform. Going by my social media, including comments from people I know, there are people out there that would happily see people rounded up and deported. And these are the ones that will not expect it to include the people they know and like, just the 'other ones'. Hence the situation Stateside where Latinos voted for Trump then got surprised when their family members were rounded up. No, not us! We voted for you...

 

[ainsworth74]

Some interesting points, but a couple of questions:

a) you mention the UK but is this not an international issue? Many countries, from what I gather, are going through a period of austerity right now due to the actions of Russia and Middle Eastern players in addition to the aftermath of Covid. And to be honest, the far-right is a problem across much of Europe, to be honest. So presumably other countries have the same problem.

Well yeah of course we're seeing a similar disease spreading internationally. It seems quite clear that the post-war order in multiple ways (i.e. economic, geo-politically, etc etc) is beginning to disintegrate. I have no idea what will replace it. But this is a thread about ReformUK and UK politics so making sweeping international comparisons didn't seem highly relevant though yes, in general, I would suggest that there are similarities in many countries. But equally differences. After all, all politics is local

Germany appears to have staved off the threat of the AfD by taking something of an anti-immigration approach without veering too far to the right. Is that a useful comparator?

Have they? AfD increase the representation in the Bundestag from 83 seats (10.4% of the vote) in the 2021 Federal Elections to 152 seats (20.8% of the vote) and are the second largest party in the Bundestag following the 2025 elections. Perhaps we've seen peak AfD but the response to the 2025 election seemed more like a sigh of relief that it didn't go as badly as it could have done rather than a ringing rejection of the AfD. From what I can tell the AfD have a firm base in the former East Germany now and so there's reason to think they could grow from there. Two big eastern states (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Saxony-Anhalt) have elections in 2026 that'll be an interesting bellweather for how the AfD are doing.

b) what of the possibly very strong tactical anti-Reform vote? 30% of people might support Reform, but perhaps 40% or 50% are horrified of the prospect of a Reform government. I can see tactical alliances perhaps keeping them out - heck, you could even have long-term liberals/"lefties" voting Tory in order to do so. I can say that I personally would be prepared to vote Tory to keep Reform out, and I've never been a fan of the Tories. I can see that coordinated and organised anti-Reform campaigns could keep them out. There is, I suspect, a lot of deep fear of Reform amongst many of us and if that exceeds their support, there is every chance that the are defeated, even if we end up with some strange coalition (Lab-Con?).

I'm not trying to wargame out the 2029 election here in the middle of 2025 and I'm not sure there's any point to doing so either. In that time there's a whole host of factors that could change. For one thing Reform could just straight up implode. They're hardly the most stable of political parties. Labour might find their mojo as well. We might be at war Russia (or the US!). Who knows? Ask me in 2028 and I might start thinking more strategically about what might actually happen when we get to the General Election.

But sat here in 2025 I'm simply pointing out that a key element of defusing the Reform danger is trying to address the underlying issues. Pretending that it's just a bunch of xenophobes and racists is unhelpful in that task and if that's the focus of Labour over the next four years they're going to have an uphill battle.

Labour isn't going to be offering to do that, nor the Tories. So, if people want this then they're going to vote Reform.

And even if either did, those voters wouldn't believe them anyway. They're that hardcore of racists that will vote Reform come what may. No point trying to win them over, particularly as they've been voting Reform for a while at this point (and Brexit Party, UKIP, BNP, etc before that).

 

[nw1]

Labour isn't going to be offering to do that, nor the Tories. So, if people want this then they're going to vote Reform. Going by my social media, including comments from people I know, there are people out there that would happily see people rounded up and deported. And these are the ones that will not expect it to include the people they know and like, just the 'other ones'. Hence the situation Stateside where Latinos voted for Trump then got surprised when their family members were rounded up. No, not us! We voted for you...

As I said above, we appear to have a closet hardline Reform supporter in our flats, which are very much multicultural. Someone graffitied some Tory literature this morning to encourage residents to vote for Reform, and just left it in the hall.

I removed it forthwith...

 

[AlterEgo]

What I was trying to say is that one reason given for Reform support is that people were struggling financially and public services are in a poor state.
Therefore, a left-wing party is surely the obvious choice to tackle the problems.

Why would it be *obvious*?

I mean, if you look at history, the "obvious" reaction to a country in a parlous state with crises on multiple fronts and a citizenry in dire financial straits is to vote for right wing reactionary parties.

 

[brad465]

Tice has proposed a policy on allowing members of the public to have a say on criminal sentences through petitions to force sentence reviews:

Give public a say on prison sentences, says Reform UK

The party's deputy leader Richard Tice says members of the public should have a say on whether sentences are too harsh or lenient.

www.bbc.co.uk

The deputy leader of Reform UK has proposed a new law that would allow members of the public a say when they think criminal sentences are either too harsh or too lenient.
MP Richard Tice said he wanted a system where if 500 members of the public said they disagreed with a sentence in a petition to the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC), it would have to decide whether to refer the decision to a court.
He said it would add a further safeguard on sentences and that would give the public more confidence in the justice system.
A spokesperson for the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) said they were not actively considering Tice's proposals.
Tice told MPs that "even noble, experienced, wise judges can get things wrong", but that "maybe the public would have ever more confidence in a vibrant democracy, in our justice system, if it was like a system of treble check safeguard of the sentences, without being able to impinge on the original judgement that was following a case."
He said it would give people more confidence in the "fairness and the comparative appropriateness of sentences within our system".
An MoJ spokesperson declined to formally comment but said that under existing laws, a defendant can refer their conviction to the Court of Appeal if they believe their sentence to be unduly harsh or incorrect.
Anyone can refer a case they believe to be unduly lenient to the attorney general, the spokesperson added.
Tice proposed the bill in the wake of the case of Lucy Connolly, and referenced her in his speech in the House of Commons.
Alluding to Connolly's case, he said someone sending a post on social media could be given a sentence "that might be significantly more than the sentence given to a shoplifter, a robber, a mugger, a drug dealer".
Connolly was jailed for 31 months in October after admitting inciting racial hatred. She posted on on X calling for "mass deportation now", adding "set fire to all the... hotels [housing asylum seekers]... for all I care".
Her message was reposted 940 times and viewed 310,000 times, before she deleted it three and a half hours later.
In May, she lost an appeal against her sentence.

Tice has previously said Connolly should be freed, external and that her imprisonment was an example of "two tier justice".

The CCRC, the body Tice proposes would assess any sentences a public petition has flagged, has faced criticism after a series of missteps.

The independent, arms-length body looks into potential miscarriages of justice in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Dame Vera Baird KC, the new interim chair of the CCRC, told the BBC earlier this month the commission was "incapable of learning from their mistakes" and she wanted to "root out" the culture causing them.

Her predecessor quit in January after an independent report concluded the CCRC had mishandled the case of Andrew Malkinson and had failed to complete basic work that could have cast doubt on his conviction.

Malkinson was wrongly imprisoned for rape in 2004. He was freed in 2023 when a judge declared his conviction unsafe when new DNA evidence on the victim's clothing was found to match another man.

MPs will debate the use of prison as a penalty for non-violent offences arising from social media posts after a Parliamentary petition created by ex-Reform MP Rupert Lowe passed the 100,000 signatures threshold.

I think this is inherently flawed: judges have to listen to hours upon hours of evidence, plus take into account all sorts of factors, when deciding a sentence for a guilty person. Almost the entire population who would be able to sign a petition would not have even read/heard 1% of that evidence, so could easily just sign something because they feel like it, and/or suits their tribal belief, without doing any serious research. Then the fact only 500 signatures are needed means a very high volume of sentences would have to be reviewed in this way, blocking up more justice system capacity, slowing down the whole justice system for other cases. As is pointed out, appeals' process already exists and even where improvements can be made to sentencing, this is a professional area which the public should stay well out of.

 

[jon0844]

Why 500? Just post details of the case on Facebook and look at the comments to decide.

If it's someone who was speeding, well that's war on motorists, so they're okay. No charge*.

Foreign sounding name caught shoplifting; death penalty and then deport the corpse.

* Oh wait, they were of foreign descent. Lock them up too.

 

[Gloster]

Why 500? Just post details of the case on Facebook and look at the comments to decide.

If it's someone who was speeding, well that's war on motorists, so they're okay. No charge*.

Foreign sounding name caught shoplifting; death penalty and then deport the corpse.

* Oh wait, they were of foreign descent. Lock them up too.

You are being much too unambitious with here. Have it on live, prime time TV presented by Davina McCall and Claudia Winkleman, ‘…who will be eliminated this week from Strictly Come Judging, the topping show?’ Or have ‘The Masked Condemned’ and watch the looks of horror as the voters realise that they have voted through the trap door someone of the wrong colour. Think of the money that would roll in from the ‘phone lines.

 

[styles]

I wouldn't necessarily object to citizen juries having a say on broader sentencing guidelines, but not individual cases.

 

[nw1]

So

Tice has proposed a policy on allowing members of the public to have a say on criminal sentences through petitions to force sentence reviews:

Give public a say on prison sentences, says Reform UK

The party's deputy leader Richard Tice says members of the public should have a say on whether sentences are too harsh or lenient.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think this is inherently flawed: judges have to listen to hours upon hours of evidence, plus take into account all sorts of factors, when deciding a sentence for a guilty person. Almost the entire population who would be able to sign a petition would not have even read/heard 1% of that evidence, so could easily just sign something because they feel like it, and/or suits their tribal belief, without doing any serious research. Then the fact only 500 signatures are needed means a very high volume of sentences would have to be reviewed in this way, blocking up more justice system capacity, slowing down the whole justice system for other cases. As is pointed out, appeals' process already exists and even where improvements can be made to sentencing, this is a professional area which the public should stay well out of.

This just seems to show Reform's whole attitude. Let off vicious people like Connolly just because they have a certain type of politics. "Two-tier justice" indeed. The only "two-tier justice" is that of the populist right who appear to wish to let off people who have perpetrated hate crimes against immigrants.
Yet if the criminal was left-wing or non-British, you can just bet that they would be calling for them to be locked up for life.

If politicians want to pursue a tough law-and-order policy, they need to do it in an objective, non-biased way. A genuine tough-on-law-and-order person would see that Connolly has incited violence and arson and therefore deserves an appropriately tough sentence.

There's a new and better meaning for the word "snowflake" as far as I'm concerned. A right-wing populist who cries when justice is served against them for wrongdoing. See also one Marine Le Pen.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2025 ==

Why would it be *obvious*?

I mean, if you look at history, the "obvious" reaction to a country in a parlous state with crises on multiple fronts and a citizenry in dire financial straits is to vote for right wing reactionary parties.

Maybe but I don't think the country is in quite as bad a state as you imply. That's not to say that it's in a good place, of course, but things don't seem as bad as they were in Great Depression. Arguably, talking up the country's problems to be worse than they are is just contributing to the spiral of despond and making things worse, as some posters above have mentioned.

I'd prefer to compare things now to how the country was in say the early 80s, when there was (for a time, until the Falklands war intervened) a strong move towards the left and away from Thatcher.

But it's not obvious to me why people suffering hard times vote for the hard-right, other than victim-blaming. Since my teenage years it's been obvious to me that the politicians who care most for the poor are on the left. I'm not saying that current Labour are great in that regard, but that's arguably because they aren't left-wing enough.

 

[brad465]

I wouldn't necessarily object to citizen juries having a say on broader sentencing guidelines, but not individual cases.

Yes there are a fair few issues that citizen's juries should be used in (for example I'd used them in the Assisted Dying debate to decide the best policy, which is then put to a referendum/election manifesto), but this is not what is being suggested by Tice on the matter of prison sentences.

 

[99009]

But it's not obvious to me why people suffering hard times vote for the hard-right, other than victim-blaming. Since my teenage years it's been obvious to me that the politicians who care most for the poor are on the left. I'm not saying that current Labour are great in that regard, but that's arguably because they aren't left-wing enough.

Allow me to try to explain this and, if necessary over the coming hours/days, elaborate on the posts made by @ainsworth74 which, in my opinion, are absolutely spot on and hit the nail on the head.

I suggest re-reading post #731 made by @ainsworth74 and reading what I've said below, but this time keep in mind that the key word that is necessary when reading all this is...

PERCEPTION.

Perception being the way in which something is understood or interpreted. So not the truth or reality of something, but what seems or feels like to be the truth or reality.

What he's describing in that post is people's perception of why they perceive/believe/feel voting Reform is a good idea. Like you, I agree voting Reform wouldn't be a good idea and would make things worse, but that's not what some people around the UK percieve/believe/feel.

Some people around the UK (I don't know a quantity so can't quantify for you whether it's a minority/few/majority etc but I personally believe it's a small majority based off the Brexit vote) do not identify with when media/people use terms such as hard-right, left, left-wing. To them it's not about left or right and politics just isn't important. For them, left/right exists only for the elite, the media and for those who have an interest in politics. This plays a part in attracting support to Reform/Farage, who position themselves as anti-elite and anti-establishment. Some of the interest/attraction of voting Reform/Farage is about the perception that nothing has changed/improved for them in their daily lives voting Labour or Conservative.

Reform literally means change. The word reform, along with some of the things they say, is enough for some people to think "Well, my life is horrible right now, I wait ages to see a GP, fuel/food prices are going up, it's all the same with Labour and Conservative etc but they seem different, so I'll vote for them because they're going to change it and make it better."

So, in short, with people suffering hard times and feeling unsupported/desperate, it doesn't matter whether the party is hard right or hard left. It's totally irrelevant. What matters to them is that they see someone (in this case Farage) saying they agree with/understand how they feel, saying they're going to come along and fix the problems and saying they're going to improve their lives. Essentially, someone is going to change things and make their lives better in doing so.

Lastly, if anyone is reading this thinking "Reform only attracts people who are xenophobic/homophobic/racist/anti-immigration" please may I ask you to re-read ainsworth's posts, especially post #731 as mentioned and this one. Why? Because thinking people only want to vote Reform for these reasons is not true. That only accounts for a part (again I don't know a quantity so won't quantify it) of Reform's support. I have tried to explain/back up ainsworth's posts because I really think he's correct and I think it's something that not enough people are understanding. Voting Reform, especially to people who are struggling, is seen as the solution to their desire for their lives to get better because they and Reform are/feel anti-elite, because Reform are new so it's worth a try/risk, because Reform are not Labour/Conservative etc and because they want change, which is literally what Reform means, so they feel/perceive/is the perception of what Reform/Farage will bring.

 

[Howardh]

Nige doesn’t mind people arriving on large boats.

Yachts!

We could have a situation where Reform don't have quite enough to form a majority government so would rely on Tory support - wonder if every single Tory MP in such a senario would be happy to prop up Reform, or in order to oppose them defect to (most likely) the Lib Dems within days of the general election? I understand that if a government can't form a majority the chances are another election within 6 months - but the result could be identical!

 

[SuspectUsual]

Voting Reform, especially to people who are struggling, is seen as the solution to their desire for their lives to get better because they and Reform are/feel anti-elite, because Reform are new so it's worth a try/risk, because Reform are not Labour/Conservative etc and because they want change, which is literally what Reform means, so they feel/perceive/is the perception of what Reform/Farage will bring.

So it boils down to “look at Labour, they’ve failed in the past; look at the Tories, they’ve failed in the past; we haven’t failed and we’ve got lots of criticism of the status quo and some vague guff about what we'll do”

Exactly how the Brexit battle was won

 

[The Ham]

So it boils down to “look at Labour, they’ve failed in the past; look at the Tories, they’ve failed in the past; we haven’t failed and we’ve got lots of criticism of the status quo and some vague guff about what we'll do”

Exactly how the Brexit battle was won

However, that only works to a point.

They need to show that they can deliver improvements within the councils they run.

If they also fail, then their support may reduce.

 

[nw1]

Allow me to try to explain this and, if necessary over the coming hours/days, elaborate on the posts made by @ainsworth74 which, in my opinion, are absolutely spot on and hit the nail on the head.

I suggest re-reading post #731 made by @ainsworth74 and reading what I've said below, but this time keep in mind that the key word that is necessary when reading all this is...

PERCEPTION.

Perception being the way in which something is understood or interpreted. So not the truth or reality of something, but what seems or feels like to be the truth or reality.

What he's describing in that post is people's perception of why they perceive/believe/feel voting Reform is a good idea. Like you, I agree voting Reform wouldn't be a good idea and would make things worse, but that's not what some people around the UK percieve/believe/feel.

Some people around the UK (I don't know a quantity so can't quantify for you whether it's a minority/few/majority etc but I personally believe it's a small majority based off the Brexit vote) do not identify with when media/people use terms such as hard-right, left, left-wing. To them it's not about left or right and politics just isn't important. For them, left/right exists only for the elite, the media and for those who have an interest in politics. This plays a part in attracting support to Reform/Farage, who position themselves as anti-elite and anti-establishment. Some of the interest/attraction of voting Reform/Farage is about the perception that nothing has changed/improved for them in their daily lives voting Labour or Conservative.

Reform literally means change. The word reform, along with some of the things they say, is enough for some people to think "Well, my life is horrible right now, I wait ages to see a GP, fuel/food prices are going up, it's all the same with Labour and Conservative etc but they seem different, so I'll vote for them because they're going to change it and make it better."

So, in short, with people suffering hard times and feeling unsupported/desperate, it doesn't matter whether the party is hard right or hard left. It's totally irrelevant. What matters to them is that they see someone (in this case Farage) saying they agree with/understand how they feel, saying they're going to come along and fix the problems and saying they're going to improve their lives. Essentially, someone is going to change things and make their lives better in doing so.

Lastly, if anyone is reading this thinking "Reform only attracts people who are xenophobic/homophobic/racist/anti-immigration" please may I ask you to re-read ainsworth's posts, especially post #731 as mentioned and this one. Why? Because thinking people only want to vote Reform for these reasons is not true. That only accounts for a part (again I don't know a quantity so won't quantify it) of Reform's support. I have tried to explain/back up ainsworth's posts because I really think he's correct and I think it's something that not enough people are understanding. Voting Reform, especially to people who are struggling, is seen as the solution to their desire for their lives to get better because they and Reform are/feel anti-elite, because Reform are new so it's worth a try/risk, because Reform are not Labour/Conservative etc and because they want change, which is literally what Reform means, so they feel/perceive/is the perception of what Reform/Farage will bring.

I see what you're saying, though the way of thinking is somewhat alien to me as since my late teens, the left-right axis has been second nature to me and has always governed how I vote.

But with that all in mind, what do "we" do to prevent a Reform-led government next time?

"We" being those of us who are frightened of, disturbed by, and repulsed by Reform; would understand that Reform would do a terrible job, not actually make things better, increase the wealth divide (does Farage really care about the poor? No, I suspect); potentially trash sectors of the economy due to a hardline anti-immigration stance; and most worryingly of all, could bring in an authoritarian regime which is at least as bad as what is currently in place in the US. We're already seeing signs of authoritarianism and control-freakery in the form of their bans on flying non-national/county flags such as the Pride flag or the Ukraine flag.

"We" also being other parties, such as Labour, the Lib Dems and even the Conservatives.

It's almost like we need to galvanise the anti-Reform vote and get the complacent out and make sure they vote.

Perhaps those with the skill should relentlessly attack, and attack, and attack the party itself - without attacking its voters. Show them up for what they really are and how they will likely make life much harder for all of us.

Perhaps we need to "reform" the voting system as a matter of urgency, as I've said before. Under PR we avoid the risk of them getting a majority on 30% of the vote, which the broken FPTP system is renowned for doing.

 

[SuspectUsual]

They need to show that they can deliver improvements within the councils they run.

They'll just point the finger at insufficient central government funding and/or unreasonable demands made on them as a result of central government policies (eg our DOGE highlighted Kent wasting council tax payers money on TV Licenses. Its only because they're for the children of illegals and we have no choice but to pay"

It is NEVER their fault