Reduction in minimum age for train drivers.

[Economist]

I highly doubt it. Such disciplinary actions and/or development plans are rarely - if ever - made public.

I was thinking of something that would either make an RAIB report or make the headlines like the BA pilot who was sacked for snorting coke off a colleague's chest downroute. Not saying it would necessarily happen but if it did I wouldn't be surprised if it somehow got out and much was made of the driver's age if under 21.

 

[43066]

I get the impression that the interested parties (DfT, TOCs, ASLEF) want something that looks good in the media, like many grand announcements in the media it won't have a big impact because I presume the vast majority of trainees will continue to be over 21.

Absolutely.

Train driving isn’t a job which appeals or is suited to the majority.

That’s no different to most jobs, though?What is certain is that, even with current recruitment practices, it has enough appeal to garner plenty of applicants for each role (no great surprise when there are relatively few jobs where you go from zero to £70-80k+ within a year or so).

Part of the issue is around how this volume of people are whittled down in a way that ensures those who are recruited are suited to the relatively unusual skillset of the role. Lowering the age limit (which inevitably means a few dozen/hundred more applicants per post) will make this process harder for small recruitment teams as - just based on the law of averages - far more additional unsuitable than suitable applicants will be generated.

You can train to be an officer in the Royal Marines at 18 - it’s not what everyone will do, but that’s why there’s an open selection process.

There’s an open process for train drivers too - arguably a lot more open than for the Royal Marines as they (AIUI) have stringent upper age limits!

To be clear I don’t object to the age being lowered in principle, but I do think a. It will lead to few 18yos being recruited, just as few 21 years olds are currently, and b. It won’t make any difference to driver numbers and rest day work reliance, which is largely a political/economic decision.

 

[Red Devil]

As noted above - if you actually speak to some driver trainers, their worst nightmare is often ex guards who think they know it all. They often prefer a blank canvas with no preconceived ideas.

I've had rail staff and off the streets and not noticed any difference regarding attitude.

 

[bramling]

It might not be suited to the majority, but it appeals to a lot. Hence the number of applicants which for trainee drivers and intercity operators is often over 1000.

Let’s be honest, for many of these people the appeal will be the £. Which straight away introduces the problem that they want the £, but not some of the difficult stuff which comes with it, the big nasty being shift work.

 

[styles]

Absolutely against the law to hire based on age these days, you aren't even allowed to ask date of birth on application forms.

You can still hire based on age, but for a long time now, and most recently solidified in the Equality Act, you need to demonstrate that it is to achieve a 'legitimate aim', and that the discrimination is both necessary and proportionate.

Doesn't apply to the context you were replying to (merely recruiting younger people so you get your money's worth out of your training investment into them), but yeah.

In practice, it's hard to prove things like age discrimination unless somebody outright says they're doing it. If I have two candidates in front of me, one is 15 years younger and I think I'll get more out of the younger person, I could hire them on that basis, as long as I don't actually tell people that's what I'm doing. If challenged I could easily brush it off saying they had more enthusiasm for the role or something else subjective.

If it happens at scale, that may be easier to prove. Why does train company X have an average driver age 15 years lower than company Y when both X and Y operate similar services in geographical areas of similar age distributions, who entered the market round about the same time; starts to bring objectivity into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Let’s be honest, for many of these people the appeal will be the £. Which straight away introduces the problem that they want the £, but not some of the difficult stuff which comes with it, the big nasty being shift work.

I felt like this happened when there was a lorry driver shortage as well. Pay offers with golden handshakes made it sound very lucrative. A family member of mine was telling me he wants to get his cat C/D entitlements so he can start trucking. And I was sceptical really and asked what about your fiancé, and your 3 kids? A lot of these highly paid roles involve multiple days away from home at a time, and can't even really use your phone while you're driving to keep in touch. Living out of lay-bys and service stations. Sure you could get a portable genny and an air fryer to eat more healthily than my uncles used to when they were truckers, but I can imagine there's a fair amount of stress in being on the wagons now.

 

[furnessvale]

This assumes that performance in the prior role is any guide to performance in the new role - experience shows that in many cases it isn’t. It also creates a vacancy in the first role you then have to backfill. Yes the person already employed is a “known quantity”, but a lot can equally be discovered by reference checks on someone from outside, and only hiring those with solid employment histories.

Certainly guards at my operator have had a “mixed” experience of getting onto driving courses, and there have been plenty of “unofficial” suggestions that the company prefers to look outside. A few have even left to get a key elsewhere and then returned. Like it or not, there is no longer a “line of promotion” to driving as there was under BR. The decision of operators to move away from that presumably didn’t happen by accident…

I have seen glowing references given to individuals a company is keen to get rid of!

 

[The Sorcerer]

It makes sense.

Just taken a look at the training age for prospective RAF and commercial pilots is 18.

If it is considered appropriate for young people to learn to fly the 20 year minimum age appears to be a bit of an anomaly.

It makes no sense at all. None.

As if there are not enough people over 20 who dont want £1000 a week job!

Makes no sense at all,so what is real reason for runing the risk of having a teenager driving a 400 ton train that any insurance company would charge double the premium if it where a motor vehicle involved.

 

[Goldfish62]

Makes no sense at all,so what is real reason for runing the risk of having a teenager driving a 400 ton train that any insurance company would charge double the premium if it where a motor vehicle involved.

A bizarre comparison and somewhat insulting to teenagers.

Mick Whelan of ASLEF sums up the reasoning perfectly:

Because, at the moment, young people who want to become train drivers leave school or college at 18, get other jobs, and we miss out as an industry, as they don’t wait around until they turn 20 to find a career.

Full steam ahead: young people take the drivers seat to improve train services and unlock jobs

Lowering the train driver age to 18 will help future-proof our railways, support young people in fulfilling careers and boost growth across the country.

www.gov.uk

 

[miami]

but not some of the difficult stuff which comes with it, the big nasty being shift work.

Many in the rail industry seem to think they are somehow special with shift work. Vast numbers of people do shift work - including industries that don't practically stop on days like christmas day, let alone Sundays, or "5am starts".

 

[Goldfish62]

Many in the rail industry seem to think they are somehow special with shift work. Vast numbers of people do shift work - including industries that don't practically stop on days like christmas day, let alone Sundays, or "5am starts".

Yes, I believe over a quarter of the working population is some sort of shift work.

 

[DMckduck]

A bizarre comparison and somewhat insulting to teenagers.

Mick Whelan of ASLEF sums up the reasoning perfectly:

Full steam ahead: young people take the drivers seat to improve train services and unlock jobs

Lowering the train driver age to 18 will help future-proof our railways, support young people in fulfilling careers and boost growth across the country.

www.gov.uk

Mick Whelan should also realise that the recruitment process also needs speeding up, as said 18 year olds aren't likely to sit around waiting in talent pools when those other career options still exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Many in the rail industry seem to think they are somehow special with shift work. Vast numbers of people do shift work - including industries that don't practically stop on days like christmas day, let alone Sundays, or "5am starts".

To be fair, it is sensationalised on this forum quite a bit. Staff on the ground don't go on about it half as much.

 

[Horizon22]

Let’s be honest, for many of these people the appeal will be the £. Which straight away introduces the problem that they want the £, but not some of the difficult stuff which comes with it, the big nasty being shift work.

Sure and I didn't suggest otherwise. Of course high salaries with very few barriers to entry will attract a large number of candidates.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Many in the rail industry seem to think they are somehow special with shift work. Vast numbers of people do shift work - including industries that don't practically stop on days like christmas day, let alone Sundays, or "5am starts".

I think train crew roles (and probably true for bus drivers and pilots / airline crew) is a bit different. Because yes, whilst a considerable number of people do shift work, a significant number of those will have mostly "set" shifts (i.e an early shift starts at 0600). A train driver could start at 0425, then 0520 then 0412, then 0633. It's more jarring.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

To be fair, it is sensationalised on this forum quite a bit. Staff on the ground don't go on about it half as much.

I'm not sure - it seems to be a continuous but low level of grumbling!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Yes, I believe over a quarter of the working population is some sort of shift work.

Around 14% of the workforce apparently. Plenty of 18-21 year olds may well have experienced it in roles like retail and hospitality if they've been employed before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Makes no sense at all,so what is real reason for runing the risk of having a teenager driving a 400 ton train that any insurance company would charge double the premium if it where a motor vehicle involved.

There's no comparison. Driving a car has - in reality - very few active safety measures to prevent driver error. Becoming a train driver will take at least 12 months, with numerous assessments, highly structured training and a number of safety systems which will prevent major incidents.

 

[Adam Williams]

Not true. I avoid asking them because I recognise they're nonsense (particularly for software engineers who tend towards the neurodiverse and thus more likely to have the problem I described with them).

ok - but you will if you want to work for a big company

Except even large companies won't waste time with these sorts of Qs when interviewing software engineers. Some of the alternatives (leetcode bingo) aren't exactly flawless, in my view, but at least it's more closely related to the role than a lot of the "Tell us about a time you dealt with an abusive and unreasonable customer" nonsense [and somehow I feel like "blocked them at the payment gateway and suggested they use Trainline for their booking needs going forwards" wouldn't be valued as an answer]. You wouldn't get a question like that in a Google SWE interview, for example.

There's a view here from some that driver salaries seem to justify the hoops, but I am unconvinced the job is really that "special" - sorry*; nor is there any sort of correlation more generally in our society between pay potential and hoop-jumping; you only need to look at the nonsense you have to go through to get a speciality training place as a resident doctor (including two years as a foundation doctor, at least four years at medical school, competition against IMGs, requirements to publish academic research/build a portfolio/organise placements/network with consultants/ace your academic exams) to try and secure a training post with a 49k salary.

I realise we've strayed away from the topic at hand here, but I do think some other fields could do with learning from engineering fields and reviewing how they assess candidates from first principles to ensure that they're not unfairly disadvantaging some candidates who might otherwise be good at the job.

* That's not to say I don't value those doing the work or consider their pay unreasonable, I just don't think there's a unique requirement in this field for recruitment to work the way it currently does.

 

[Goldfish62]

Around 14% of the workforce apparently. Plenty of 18-21 year olds may well have experienced it in roles like retail and hospitality if they've been employed before.

Looking it up it very depends on how you define it. Perhaps a better way would be to say that a quarter of full time workers do contracted hours other than a traditional Mon-Fri 9-5.

 

[Horizon22]

Looking it up it very depends on how you define it. Perhaps a better way would be to say that a quarter of full time workers do contracted hours other than a traditional Mon-Fri 9-5.

It may well be and happy to be corrected if there is a source for it. The 4 million / 14% figure was the primary number that came up when I searched for it.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm not sure - it seems to be a continuous but low level of grumbling!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

I don't really understand it myself. I did a job involving shift work for a few years. I didn't like it so I left and got another job not involving shift work. Simple! Some of my friends have been on shift work for most of their working lives. They do it because it suits them. If it didn't suit them they'd look for work elsewhere.

 

[Horizon22]

I don't really understand it myself. I did a job involving shift work for a few years. I didn't like it so I left and got another job not involving shift work. Simple! Some of my friends have been on shift work for most of their working lives. They do it because it suits them. If it didn't suit them they'd look for work elsewhere.

Many I think know they are 'trapped' by the salaries.

 

[Goldfish62]

Many I think know they are 'trapped' by the salaries.

Fair comment and very valid point!

 

[Pintman]

Except even large companies won't waste time with these sorts of Qs when interviewing software engineers. Some of the alternatives (leetcode bingo) aren't exactly flawless, in my view, but at least it's more closely related to the role than a lot of the "Tell us about a time you dealt with an abusive and unreasonable customer" nonsense [and somehow I feel like "blocked them at the payment gateway and suggested they use Trainline for their booking needs going forwards" wouldn't be valued as an answer]. You wouldn't get a question like that in a Google SWE interview, for example.

But before you get to these questions you also need to pass a suite of other assessments, more akin to the leetcode bingo that you mention

 

[bramling]

Many in the rail industry seem to think they are somehow special with shift work. Vast numbers of people do shift work - including industries that don't practically stop on days like christmas day, let alone Sundays, or "5am starts".

There’s a big difference with all this. If somewhere like a retail store finds that someone’s attendance is erratic, they can get rid of them literally at the drop of a hat. It’s much harder for the rail industry to get rid of problem people, and even if it was it will have resulted in a relative fortune having been wasted in terms of training - and meanwhile you now have cancelled trains because there’s now an unfilled vacancy.

I’ve seen it happen too many times. Let’s have the money, oooh sorry but I want every weekend off, if you pull me in for my poor attendance I’m off for 6 months with stress.

 

[renegademaster]

That most will be unlikely to pass selection isn't a reason to ban 18 years from being train drivers, it's just a reason to set expectations of it helping with staff shortages low.

The vast majority of applicants don't get past the initial psychometric tests,

Are they designed to get the numbers down to what they want them to be or is there a sound reasoning on where exactly the thresholds are drawn?

 

[Meole]

Are there restrictions on drinking alcohol the day before train driving ? Some industries have such and even have random tests.

 

[baz962]

That most will be unlikely to pass selection isn't a reason to ban 18 years from being train drivers, it's just a reason to set expectations of it helping with staff shortages low.

Are they designed to get the numbers down to what they want them to be or is there a sound reasoning on where exactly the thresholds are drawn?

The psychometric testing isn't for whittling down numbers , it's testing designed by psychologists to find people who can concentrate and for attention.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Are there restrictions on drinking alcohol the day before train driving ? Some industries have such and even have random tests.

The railway has random testing and although the alcohol level isn't zero , it's very close to it. I personally don't really drink and if I did , I certainly wouldn't be having more than one or two the night before.

 

[Pintman]

Are they designed to get the numbers down to what they want them to be or is there a sound reasoning on where exactly the thresholds are drawn?

They're designed to assess people for abilities and aptitudes relevant to the role, such as concentration, attention to detail, ability to learn rules, etc.

 

[Horizon22]

Are there restrictions on drinking alcohol the day before train driving ? Some industries have such and even have random tests.

Well it depends on your shift. If you were to do a late shift, come home and have one beer and have a late shift the next day, you are likely to be fine. Many wouldn't bother though.

The railway has random testing and people have been dismissed after being caught over the limit during such tests.

 

[duffield]

The road limit is 80mg per 100ml blood, rail limit is 30mg.

 

[FrontSideBus]

If you can find any 18 year olds who can function without checking their phones every five minutes... then I see no problem, heh.

 

[Towers]

Full steam ahead: young people take the drivers seat to improve train services and unlock jobs

Lowering the train driver age to 18 will help future-proof our railways, support young people in fulfilling careers and boost growth across the country.

www.gov.uk

“Future-proof our railways” - picture of an FGW HST….

 

[Goldfish62]

Some of the comments on this thread are astounding. Narrow minded and bigoted, and would be far more suitable in the letters column of the Daily Mail.

 

[bramling]

Some of the comments on this thread are astounding. Narrow minded and bigoted, and would be far more suitable in the letters column of the Daily Mail.

I daresay some of the supposedly narrow-minded comments are based on rather wider experience of having to manage or work with staff in their late teens. For starters, there’s a reason why motor insurance is inflated for this age group, and it isn’t bigotry.