Reduction in minimum age for train drivers.

[Sorcerer]

This is a very valid point. The average is something like 47 but I’m not quite sure how that’s calculated. There will be a significant number waiting to retire - certainly 10%+ of my current depot would be in the bracket if “retiring within five years”, and it has taken well over a year to get around 12 qualified drivers fully productive for various reasons (that is exceptionally bad even by railway standards!)

That is exceptionally bad just on the face of it, never mind by railway standards. I expect those kind of numbers would be even worse with TOCs that often lose qualified drivers to the likes of Avanti and LNER. I think it's safe to say that the industry needs a bit of a shake-up to manage sustainable recruitment, at least for the time being, and perhaps even without the need to rely on goodwill of staff to work overtime to not be brought to their knees when they lose that goodwill.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Well my comment was made with my direct experience of working with younger people in an industry where personal phones are not allowed in the workplace as we deal with quite sensitive personal information like bank details ect. Getting caught could lead to dismissal but they flout the rules anyway, they can't function without checking facebook or whatever they do on there which needs checking constantly, even when walking across a busy road.

 

[43066]

I've had rail staff and off the streets and not noticed any difference regarding attitude.

I was speaking more there about training school staff I’ve spoken to, who have experienced dozens if not hundreds of each over many years.

If you’ve not noticed any difference in terms of your own trainees that’s good, and how it should be of course. I can think of a couple of people just off the top of my head who proved manifestly unsuitable and then expected to be given their old job back, which by then had been filled by someone else (in one case making wild allegations of bias against the training school staff). At least with an off the street candidate they could simply be got rid of.

Generally there are agreements around existing staff being guaranteed their old roles back etc., and being allowed to retain their current salary where it is higher than the trainee driver wage. That’s all perfectly proper, of course, but it does explain why guards, platform staff etc. can find it hard to break into the driving grade.

I have seen glowing references given to individuals a company is keen to get rid of!

Fair point. That can happen internally, too, of course.

A bizarre comparison and somewhat insulting to teenagers.

Mick Whelan of ASLEF sums up the reasoning perfectly:

Full steam ahead: young people take the drivers seat to improve train services and unlock jobs

Lowering the train driver age to 18 will help future-proof our railways, support young people in fulfilling careers and boost growth across the country.

www.gov.uk

Whelan I think has taken a slightly old fashioned viewpoint here: these days people often don’t join one industry and remain in it for their entire working lives. I had no thought of joining the industry at 18 when I was off to uni. I joined in my early thirties, however, and have had ten incident free years since.

Having worked outside you also learn how much damned hard work jobs paying driver type money are, and are therefore perhaps a bit better able to take the rough with the smooth! I fully endorse @bramling’s comment re. shifts being a shock and I’d certainly have struggled with them at 18.

That said I do agree we shouldn’t stereotype 18yos, just as we shouldn’t any other age group.

 

[thenorthern]

It makes sense.

Just taken a look at the training age for prospective RAF and commercial pilots is 18.

If it is considered appropriate for young people to learn to fly the 20 year minimum age appears to be a bit of an anomaly.

Also the minimum age for a general aviation licence is 17.

With train drivers or any other operator of heavy machinery/vehicles the most important thing is that someone is medically fit to do it rather than age.

 

[43066]

Also the minimum age for a general aviation licence is 17.

With train drivers or any other operator of heavy machinery/vehicles the most important thing is that someone is medically fit to do it rather than age.

That’s a PPL, but a PPL doesn’t qualify the holder to be paid to carry the travelling public. A CPL (which does) is age 18 min.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Some of the comments on this thread are astounding. Narrow minded and bigoted, and would be far more suitable in the letters column of the Daily Mail.

Seconded.

 

[dk1]

Many I think know they are 'trapped' by the salaries.

Been my problem for the last 15 years or so. Glad I stuck it out though as all worth it now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Are there restrictions on drinking alcohol the day before train driving ? Some industries have such and even have random tests.

And the railway industry is one of the strictest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

If you can find any 18 year olds who can function without checking their phones every five minutes... then I see no problem, heh.

Then this job is not for them if they can’t overcome this obsession. Random checks can be done now to detect any internet use from outside the driving cab as there is zero tolerance for any electrical equipment to be switched on let alone in silent or airplane mode. ASLEF will also play no part in defending such foolish individuals.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Then this job is not for them if they can’t overcome this obsession. Random checks can be done now to detect any internet use from outside the driving cab as there is zero tolerance for any electrical equipment to be switched on let alone in silent or airplane mode. ASLEF will also play no part in defending such foolish individuals.

Random checks on internet use from outside the driving cab? Really? Off the top of my head, I'm struggling to see how that would be technologically possible. You'd presumably need to detect any signals from any mobile phone to a mobile phone network. You'd need to be able to distinguish a phone in the cab from a phone 2 metres away in the hands of a passenger sitting just behind the cab. And you'd need to do this when the train is zooming past at 100 mph. That seems a pretty tough challenge. And what happens if the driver actually needs to phone a signaller or someone as part of their duties?

 

[dk1]

Random checks on internet use from outside the driving cab? Really? Off the top of my head, I'm struggling to see how that would be technologically possible. You'd presumably need to detect any signals from any mobile phone to a mobile phone network. You'd need to be able to distinguish a phone in the cab from a phone 2 metres away in the hands of a passenger sitting just behind the cab. And you'd need to do this when the train is zooming past at 100 mph. That seems a pretty tough challenge, even before you get to the question of distinguishing a phone that is actually being used from a phone that is sitting at the bottom of a bag behind the driver silently downloading WhatsApp messages in the background. And what happens if the driver actually needs to phone a signaller or someone as part of their duties?

No idea how it’s done. Was tipped off by a driver manager not that I would be as dumb as to do such a thing. Infact it’s often a joy to not be in touch with the outside world for an hour or three.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Random checks on internet use from outside the driving cab? Really? Off the top of my head, I'm struggling to see how that would be technologically possible. You'd presumably need to detect any signals from any mobile phone to a mobile phone network. You'd need to be able to distinguish a phone in the cab from a phone 2 metres away in the hands of a passenger sitting just behind the cab. And you'd need to do this when the train is zooming past at 100 mph. That seems a pretty tough challenge. And what happens if the driver actually needs to phone a signaller or someone as part of their duties?

Agreed.
I don’t believe there is an ability to conduct live monitoring… sounds like typical D(S)M scaremongering to me, but should an incident occur, they have the right to seize all electronic devices in your possession and can easily determine if there’s been any activity on said devices, time stamped etc.

 

[dk1]

Agreed.
I don’t believe there is an ability to conduct live monitoring… sounds like typical D(S)M scaremongering to me, but should an incident occur, they have the right to seize all electronic devices in your possession and can easily determine if there’s been any activity on said devices, time stamped etc.

Wasn't scaremongering.

 

[DMckduck]

Random checks on internet use from outside the driving cab? Really? Off the top of my head, I'm struggling to see how that would be technologically possible. You'd presumably need to detect any signals from any mobile phone to a mobile phone network. You'd need to be able to distinguish a phone in the cab from a phone 2 metres away in the hands of a passenger sitting just behind the cab. And you'd need to do this when the train is zooming past at 100 mph. That seems a pretty tough challenge. And what happens if the driver actually needs to phone a signaller or someone as part of their duties?

The cost of the technology required to actually detect such usage would be monumental and as you say how would it even be possible, if you had to define what a mess room rumour is, that would be a perfect example.

 

[43066]

No idea how it’s done. Was tipped off by a driver manager not that I would be as dumb as to do such a thing. Infact it’s often a joy to not be in touch with the outside world for an hour or three.

I’d chalk that one up to nonsense/scaremongering tbh mate. Hard to see how that could be possible? How many people are on their phones on your standard railway carriage?

What they can do, if you’re accused of being seen on your phone, and most certainly if you have an incident, is ask for phone records/logs. That has certainly be done in the past. You could refuse to produce them (although not if the incident is serious enough for the RAIB to be involved), but they can dismiss you on the balance of probabilities anyway.

Mine goes to airplane mode and into the bag immediately I’m in the cab. As you say, that’s one of the quickest ways to lose the job, the other one failing D&A, of course.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Wasn't scaremongering.

Unless you’re connected to the onboard/company WiFi, there’s absolutely no viable way of doing this on your own personal device.
Even then, they can only monitor what data/internet you use.

If it’s a company tablet or phone however, yes, they can absolutely remotely monitor that, provided it’s again, connected to WiFi or a phone mast.

 

[dk1]

Unless you’re connected to the onboard/company WiFi, there’s absolutely no viable way of doing this on your own personal device.
Even then, they can only monitor what data/internet you use.

If it’s a company tablet or phone however, yes, they can absolutely remotely monitor that, provided it’s again, connected to WiFi or a phone mast.

Thank you. I have no idea whatsoever what’s possible. It was a genuine warning from something that was being trialled.

 

[Horizon22]

I daresay some of the supposedly narrow-minded comments are based on rather wider experience of having to manage or work with staff in their late teens. For starters, there’s a reason why motor insurance is inflated for this age group, and it isn’t bigotry.

Which again, is totally incomparable when an 18/19 year old has a holistic and extensive driver training programme in a safety-conscious industry. Lots of studies suggest humans don't fully mature until at least 25 anyway. If you're an adult you should be able to become a train driver. And if they're not good enough then fine; they won't pass the process.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Which again, is totally incomparable when an 18/19 year old has a holistic and extensive driver training programme in a safety-conscious industry. Lots of studies suggest humans don't fully mature until at least 25 anyway. If you're an adult you should be able to become a train driver. And if they're not good enough then fine; they won't pass the process.

I wonder if there's any danger of someone applying at 18 and not passing the selection process, when if they'd waited a couple of years (during which time their brain continues to mature and change) they would have passed. Obviously that's not a problem for the railways who will have hundreds of other applicants to choose from, but a waste and unnecessary disappointment for any individual concerned. Can you reapply after a rejection?

 

[Horizon22]

I wonder if there's any danger of someone applying at 18 and not passing the selection process, when if they'd waited a couple of years (during which time their brain continues to mature and change) they would have passed. Obviously that's not a problem for the railways who will have hundreds of other applicants to choose from, but a waste and unnecessary disappointment for any individual concerned. Can you reapply after a rejection?

You have three (recently upped from two) chances at passing the psychometrics at OPC to the required standard. If you pass that, you could fail the interview loads of times and still try again elswhere.

 

[Economist]

Thank you. I have no idea whatsoever what’s possible. It was a genuine warning from something that was being trialled.

I'll have to ask the DMs at my place about it since it's customary to leave work tablets on flight mode whilst driving because they have loads of technical information on them. One of the last things I want to be doing is waiting a couple of minutes for it to turn on if I want to have access to the traction manual to fix a fault. I know one company where the company tablet doubles up as the Driver Advisory System.

I think company phones should be allowed on in flight mode since we have generally signalling panel numbers in them. If a train derailed or hit something and the GSM-R was wrecked, a quick phone call to the signaller after getting out of flight mode could be quicker and more effective than track circuit clips, especially over a four track railway and/or if there were long signal sections. Having to wait a couple of minutes for the phone to turn on could be the difference between preventing or allowing other trains to hit the wreckage. This would especially be the case if the driver was physically injured and couldn't get the clips down.

 

[Pintman]

I wonder if there's any danger of someone applying at 18 and not passing the selection process, when if they'd waited a couple of years (during which time their brain continues to mature and change) they would have passed. Obviously that's not a problem for the railways who will have hundreds of other applicants to choose from, but a waste and unnecessary disappointment for any individual concerned. Can you reapply after a rejection?

There probably is a danger of that, but part of the process is deciding whether or not to go for it. Someone who thinks about whether or not they're currently equipped to pass is already demonstrating a better mindset for the role than someone who just decides to have a go because why not

 

[zuriblue]

Quite a good (long) piece here. Edited to include a quote.

‘It’s an illogical job’: Why driving a train isn’t as cushy as it might seem

The rulebook is hefty, the hours are awful and the hurdles to becoming a train driver huge. But 18-year-olds can now apply

www.theguardian.com

Few professions’ pay have aroused such incredulous ire as train drivers: earning an average of nearly £70,000 a year, going on strike to demand more, and they don’t even have to steer. But if it really is such a cushy number, why doesn’t Britain have enough drivers – and what does it take to join their ranks?

But as recent job adverts for Northern Railway show, driving may not be quite the money for old rope that headlines sometimes imply. The training salary of £26,000 rises to £62,000 in three years; but the attributes required include “diligence and moral courage”, “zero tolerance for drugs and alcohol” and “exceptional concentration skills within a low-stimulus environment”, not to mention 3am starts.

 

[Purple Train]

It is a very good piece - it does a lot of very nice debunking, and I note it is currently the trending article on the Grauniad's website. Mr Topham is one of the best transport writers I've come across, and not just in mainstream media.

 

[pint]

From an outsider the whole shift pattern used is off-putting for starters, I've also imaged train cabs to be kitted out to the same level that HGV cabs are, with air con/heating and a few things such as radios as in broadcast radio/in cab audio ( Bluetooth/Spotify etc) to keep drivers alert/prevent boredom , as well as toilet access

 

[dk1]

From an outsider the whole shift pattern used is off-putting for starters, I've also imaged train cabs to be kitted out to the same level that HGV cabs are, with air con/heating and a few things such as radios as in broadcast radio/in cab audio ( Bluetooth/Spotify etc) to keep drivers alert/prevent boredom , as well as toilet access

Defiantly no personal electrical equipment allowed to be switched on. Anyone who can’t cope with boredom or struggles to stay alert need not reply. The only radio you’ll get is GSM-R for contact with the signaller.

 

[bahnause]

Defiantly no personal electrical equipment allowed to be switched on. Anyone who can’t cope with boredom or struggles to stay alert need not reply.

Spotify works on our company issued iPad. Numerous studies confirm, that music can improve alertnes on long journeys. Quite a few countries have adapted their rulebooks accordingly.

 

[dk1]

Spotify works on our company issued iPad. Numerous studies confirm, that music can improve alertnes on long journeys. Quite a few countries have adapted their rulebooks accordingly.

Definitely won't happen here. Strictly no devices to be on in operational driving cabs. Not even permitted silent or airplane at my TOC.

 

[bahnause]

Definitely won't happen here. Strictly no devices to be on in operational driving cabs. Not even permitted silent or airplane at my TOC.

I am not convinced that sticking to old policies despite new evidence is a successful strategy.

 

[43066]

I am not convinced that sticking to old policies despite new evidence is a successful strategy.

Feel free to write to the ORR ! For its worth, I tend to agree with you. The approach to electronic devices in the UK is rather outdated and contradictory, to say the least.

 

[dk1]

I am not convinced that sticking to old policies despite new evidence is a successful strategy.

If anything it will get even more severe.

 

[saismee]

Spotify works on our company issued iPad. Numerous studies confirm, that music can improve alertnes on long journeys. Quite a few countries have adapted their rulebooks accordingly.

I am not a driver and have no driving experience, but that sounds like a terrible idea. Switching songs sounds like it could easily be enough of a distraction to cause a problem.

I believe in some parts of Australia, their train cabs have radios (so you cannot choose the song) which automatically switch off when any kind of alarm goes off. Maybe that could be trialled here but I doubt it.