Redhill Season Ticket help

[cmmercer]

Hi everyone,

I have done a little browsing through this forum, whilst also following links to ATOC website to work out the maps in order to solve my query - but I just can't get my head around it - so I hope that you can help!!

I have just moved to Redhill, and am communting to Elephant & Castle (I know, lucky me) for work. The train in the morning is easy enough - there is a direct one. But until 6pm there is not another direct train home.

My season ticket is 'NOT LONDON', so my question is: Can I get the train to Blackfriars (which I believe is a London Terminal?!?), change there and then come back out again?

I hope this makes sense, but please ask if there is anything else you need to know to answer my query.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Greenback]

I am afraid that a route Not London means that the ticket is not valid at Blackfriars.

Sorry, but welcome to the forum anyway!

 

[cmmercer]

Oh, that's annoying - it is what I had assumed hence the decision to check with the experts on here. but I had a little hope left

I guess I'll be changing at Tulse Hill, Streatham Common, and East Croydon on my way home then?!?! not sure I can fill nearly an hour every evening at Elephant and Castle!!

 

[Greenback]

It's certainly easier on a direct train, but if I had a choice between waiting around for an hour and changing, it would be the latter for me!

 

[John @ home]

I have just moved to Redhill, and am commuting to Elephant & Castle ... until 6pm there is not (a) direct train home.

I guess I'll be changing at Tulse Hill, Streatham Common, and East Croydon on my way home then? not sure I can fill nearly an hour every evening at Elephant and Castle!

The off-peak service Elephant - Redhill not via London does indeed involve three changes but, in addition to the direct train at 1756, there is a 1704 with only one change.

1704 Elephant & Castle - East Croydon 1725
1738 East Croydon - Redhill 1753

1756 Elephant & Castle - Redhill 1837

 

[cmmercer]

The off-peak service Elephant - Redhill not via London does indeed involve three changes but, in addition to the direct train at 1756, there is a 1704 with only one change.

I know!! but last night I missed it by a fraction of a second - to make that distance in 4 minutes requires no hold ups and a brisk pace. So tonight I am going to try a little harder!!!

Whilst not difficult to do the three changes way home it just seems to make the day drag so much more and I was really fed up by the time I got home last night!!

 

[John @ home]

there is a 1704 with only one change.

I know!! but last night I missed it by a fraction of a second - to make that distance in 4 minutes requires no hold ups and a brisk pace.

We now have the additional information that

• you finish work at 1700, and
• your place of work is at least 5 minutes walk from Elephant & Castle

If missing the 1704 means that you're really fed up when you get home, then we need to look at alternative options. Unfortunately they all cost more money. I'll use weekly season ticket rates below. For monthly rates, multiply by 3.84. For annual rates, multiply by 40.

One option is to buy a season ticket which allows you to travel via London in addition to the route avoiding London. A Redhill - London Terminals route Any Permitted ticket costs £58.60, compared with £53 for Redhill - Elephant & Castle route Not London, so this option would cost you an extra £5.60 a week.

Another option is to continue to buy the cheaper £53 ticket, but to pay an excess fare to allow you to travel via London on each occasion that you miss the 1704. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage give you the right to do this.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

13. The route you are entitled to take
... (e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

I'll edit this post when I've confirmed how much the difference would be in this instance.

 

[cmmercer]

Thanks very much!!

those details are indeed correct. useful info about the fee though!! so am I right in thinking that an Elephant & Castle to Redhill single costs £7.80, and Blackfriars to Redhill costs £9.20 - I just have to pay the difference?

everyone apart from the big boss leaves at about 4pm - so i might just have to try and sneak out a few minutes earlier to catch the 1704

Cheers,
Chris

 

[John @ home]

am I right in thinking that an Elephant & Castle to Redhill single costs £7.80, and Blackfriars to Redhill costs £9.20 - I just have to pay the difference?

There are a number of ways in which this could be calculated, and I am awaiting confirmation of which method would be correct.

One of the methods uses the figures £7.80 and £9.20. That calculation would be

Anytime Day Single Elephant - Redhill route + Any Permitted £9.20
minus Off-Peak Day Single Elephant - Redhill route Not London £7.80
To pay: £1.40

Another possible calculation would be

Off-Peak Day Return Redhill - Elephant route + Any Permitted £11.80
minus Off-Peak Day Return Redhill - Elephant route Not London £7.90
Difference: £3.90. Half the difference for change of route in one direction only.
To pay: £1.95

I would be interested to hear from any rail staff on the forum who issue excess fares how they would calculate the correct amount.

 

[cmmercer]

John, Thanks so much for the info!! I don't think I ever appreciated how many permutations there were for train travel and ticketing

Chris

 

[John @ home]

I don't think I ever appreciated how many permutations there were for train travel and ticketing

Yes.

Research Project on Fares [1]

Each year, 300 million fares are defined by the operators ... The overwhelming majority of these fares are never used, because they relate to journeys which are never made

[1] Research Project on Fares, Final Report for DfT / ORR Rail Value for Money Study, Steer Davies Gleave, London, February 2011.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I would be interested to hear from any rail staff on the forum who issue excess fares how they would calculate the correct amount.

I don't think you can excess fare a season for being off route (I could check tomorrow).

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=813193 suggests you would need a new single to cover the journey not covered by the season.

 

[RJ]

The excess fare is a return from Elephant to Blackfriars.

 

[John @ home]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=813193 suggests you would need a new single to cover the journey not covered by the season.

That thread (Excess Fare Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool South) is a request for an over-distance excess fare with a season ticket, which is not a passenger's right defined in the NRCoC. In this instance, the passenger's right to pay an excess fare of the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route is defined in NRCoC 13(e). The question is how that excess fare is calculated.

I have suggested two methods in post #9. hairyhandedfool's suggestion adds a third possible method. But this is not a satisfactory method because the amount to be paid is not known at the point the passenger approaches the ticket office at Elephant to request the excess fare. The OP has indicated he would travel via Blackfriars. On arrival at Blackfriars, if the first FCC service to East Croydon were routed via Tulse Hill, the lowest priced ticket would be a £4.30 SDR Elephant - Blackfriars. If the first FCC service to East Croydon were routed via London Bridge, the lowest priced ticket would be a £2.60 SDS Elephant - New Cross Gate route London Not Underground. [1]

Such an indeterminate procedure does not seem likely to me to be the correct one. But, at this stage, we just don't know.

[1] using Denmark Hill as an appropriate Routeing Point for Elephant and the notional, tortuous, but Permitted, Route of Elephant - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham - New Cross - walk - New Cross Gate - Croydon - Redhill (map combination LL+LB).

 

[RJ]

I wouldn't have done any excess which was not explicitly permitted by the book. I regularly had season ticket holders travelling off route, I always issued a single to the point of deviance from the routing validity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That thread is a request for an over-distance excess fare with a season ticket, which is not a passenger's right defined in the NRCoC.....

In post number five you will note AlterEgo suggests off-route is not possible, however, I agree that off-route and over-distance are not the same.

 

[John @ home]

In post number five you will note AlterEgo suggests off-route is not possible

In post #5 of Excess Fare Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool South, AlterEgo claims

you cant "excess" a Season ticket - not for travelling over-distance or off-route anyway.

I don't know what he means by off-route with reference to that thread.

For this discussion, there are two sets of fares Redhill - Elephant, route Not London and route + Any Permitted. The OP has a ticket valid by the less expensive route(s) and wants, on some occasions, to travel by the more expensive route(s). There is no question of travelling by anything other than a Permitted Route, so being off-route does not apply and NRCoC 13(e) gives the passenger the right to pay an excess fare of the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route. But we still don't know how that is calculated.

 

[richardderby]

cheaper season tickets available between gatwick and london bridge, route Southern only, (which i presume are valid at Redhill). excellent service to and from redhill-london bridge and its only two minutes on the northern line to Elephant and castle... maybe an oyster card....

 

[francisoldfield]

I always excess and I am a conductor that works through redhill. The way I work it out is that the season ticket technically (to me!) is a SDS from Elephant & Castle. I find out what this is and then take that away from the same single but with the route via London and hey presto just the difference is charged! No idea if its legal but no one has ever questioned it and its good customer service in my book!

Francis

 

[John @ home]

cheaper season tickets available between gatwick and london bridge, route Southern only, (which i presume are valid at Redhill). excellent service to and from redhill-london bridge and its only two minutes on the northern line to Elephant and castle... maybe an oyster card....

Mmmm. Yes, they are valid at Redhill but this ticket is only £1 a week less than the OP's current season, and ten Oyster PAYG journeys a week London Bridge - Elephant would cost £19, increasing to £20 in January.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Excess Fares section of the FRPP mentions seasons for 'Std to 1st' (difference in single fares), 'Over-distance' (new ticket) and 'Deviation to a new destination' (new ticket).

So the question is, what would the op be sold immediately before travel? IMO, a new ticket to cover the part of the journey not covered by the season. So what is the excess?......

In answer to your point about which route if there is more than one, well that is an age old question, to which the passenger must be made aware and to which the clerk can make atleast an educated guess (using timetables!).

 

[cmmercer]

Thank you all for your continued help and interest in this subject, but I am afraid I must admit - I am a little lost now!

I walk up to the ticket office at Elephant, and tell the person there that I need to make my journey home via Blackfriars he will calculate the difference between the two fares, or charge me a new single ticket to Blackfriars?

Thanks again

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the staff are the same as when I worked for Thameslink, they'll sell you a new single ticket.

 

[OwlMan]

Mmmm. Yes, they are valid at Redhill but this ticket is only £1 a week less than the OP's current season, and ten Oyster PAYG journeys a week London Bridge - Elephant would cost £19, increasing to £20 in January.

It would be cheaper to get an any permitted Redhill - London Terminals (only £5-60 per wek extra)