Reading Buses and Thames Valley

[Mark L]

I don't wish to push people from one group to another! But this does sound interesting! https://tangytango.proboards.com/post/936733/thread

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2026 ==

Braking the comment down...

A) Personally moving the bus station from where it is now i don't think makes much sense, its ideal for rail passengers, i just think they need to rebuild it on the same site and maybe take some land from the so called car park behind maybe allowing coaches say to use this bus station, which i believe the current can not allow

B) Having spoke with driver's & cleaners at Slough bus depot it seams they now have run out of space and often park buses outside in Stanley Cottages, so again i can't see how anyone else would fit their

C) With the way Carousel are at the moment with Reading it might then turn into a further war or even one might try buy out the other's slough work, which then begs the question who would be the better winner

I doubt either would buy First’s Slough operation as this would entail bringing the existing staff over under TUPE. Much more likely is that one (or both) will wait until First finally chucks in the towel (assuming it does) and then register their own services. Mind you, the demise of First’s Slough operation has been confidently predicted for years but it soldiers on.

 

[sp503]

I doubt either would buy First’s Slough operation as this would entail bringing the existing staff over under TUPE. Much more likely is that one (or both) will wait until First finally chucks in the towel (assuming it does) and then register their own services. Mind you, the demise of First’s Slough operation has been confidently predicted for years but it soldiers on.

Sorry I am new to the area and would like to learn more about the demise of First. I know that First used to have a large presence in Thames Valley which has since shrunk. What led to the failure of First while other companies, Carousel for instance, manage to flourish?

 

[Non Multi]

Sorry I am new to the area and would like to learn more about the demise of First. I know that First used to have a large presence in Thames Valley which has since shrunk. What led to the failure of First while other companies, Carousel for instance, manage to flourish?

First lost 2 bus wars and subsequent council tenders in Maidenhead and Bracknell in the 2010s, repeatedly losing to the small independent Courtney Coaches. The owner, Bill Courtney would later sell the company to Reading Buses and it was merged into their Thames Valley operation (which was initially started in response to First's withdrawal from Bracknell and network changes in Slough and Windsor).

Courtney ran new, leased buses such as Optare Solos, whilst First ran a mostly motley fleet of older Barbie liveried low floor buses, cascaded buses from First London and older Citaros bought by Heathrow. First also relaunched the Beeline brand in a unsuccessful attempt to win back custom in Bracknell. Beeline was the name of the operator before it was purchased by First Bus.

First's operation in the Thames Valley was at the time being overseen by management in Southampton. They made a number of major changes to return the remaining Slough operations to profitability.

After pulling out of Bracknell and withdrawing their Greenline 702 service, they withdrew from tendered routes in Slough and Windsor, then broke up cross town routes in 2017 and after temporarily losing Heathrow funding, axed several direct routes to the LHR terminals. They also stopped serving the local general hospital at Wexham Park.

The Slough cross-town routes were eventually reinstated with higher frequencies with new funding from Heathrow. A change in management saw a rebranding back to Beeline for the 2nd time with newish cascaded double deckers from First Glasgow. First have been more focused on expanding their Heathrow RailAir coach shuttles in recent years than bus routes. Slough depot is also a base for the coaches they now run for FlixBus.

Thames Valley and Courtney (prior to the takeover) took over the tendered routes dropped by First in Slough and Windsor. Reading Buses launched a replacement Greenline 702 commercial service run from their depot in Reading. This was later complimented by the 703 service run by Thames Valley between Heathrow T5, Slough, Windsor and Bracknell, funded by Heathrow.

Carousel initially got a foothold in Slough by running some Sunday tendered services to High Wycombe on the 74, they then expanded onto the Amersham-Gerrards Cross-Wexham-Slough routes and launched a commercial service to Wycombe via Beaconsfield a few years after Arriva withdrew the 74 route. Carousel have gradually taken opportunities to expand their network over time, initially taking routes from Arriva who they would subsequently defeat in the long running bus war in High Wycombe.

 

[Fletcj10]

I was told many years ago (unsure how true it was) that Reading Buses did try to buy Slough (this was during the Courtney & Newbury buy outs) however it's at this point unknown why that never happened, its speculated that First refused the amount offered stating its worth more i.e RailAir is worth more & that Reading couldn't afford anymore than what was offered so the deal was dropped.

Again it could be total wobble but that was what i was told years back.

 

[cactustwirly]

I was told many years ago (unsure how true it was) that Reading Buses did try to buy Slough (this was during the Courtney & Newbury buy outs) however it's at this point unknown why that never happened, its speculated that First refused the amount offered stating its worth more i.e RailAir is worth more & that Reading couldn't afford anymore than what was offered so the deal was dropped.

Again it could be total wobble but that was what i was told years back.

RailAir and the Heathrow services are basically holding everything up.

I doubt First will get rid of Slough because of this reason

 

[sp503]

First lost 2 bus wars and subsequent council tenders in Maidenhead and Bracknell in the 2010s, repeatedly losing to the small independent Courtney Coaches. The owner, Bill Courtney would later sell the company to Reading Buses and it was merged into their Thames Valley operation (which was initially started in response to First's withdrawal from Bracknell and network changes in Slough and Windsor).

Courtney ran new, leased buses such as Optare Solos, whilst First ran a mostly motley fleet of older Barbie liveried low floor buses, cascaded buses from First London and older Citaros bought by Heathrow. First also relaunched the Beeline brand in a unsuccessful attempt to win back custom in Bracknell. Beeline was the name of the operator before it was purchased by First Bus.

First's operation in the Thames Valley was at the time being overseen by management in Southampton. They made a number of major changes to return the remaining Slough operations to profitability.

After pulling out of Bracknell and withdrawing their Greenline 702 service, they withdrew from tendered routes in Slough and Windsor, then broke up cross town routes in 2017 and after temporarily losing Heathrow funding, axed several direct routes to the LHR terminals. They also stopped serving the local general hospital at Wexham Park.

The Slough cross-town routes were eventually reinstated with higher frequencies with new funding from Heathrow. A change in management saw a rebranding back to Beeline for the 2nd time with newish cascaded double deckers from First Glasgow. First have been more focused on expanding their Heathrow RailAir coach shuttles in recent years than bus routes. Slough depot is also a base for the coaches they now run for FlixBus.

Thames Valley and Courtney (prior to the takeover) took over the tendered routes dropped by First in Slough and Windsor. Reading Buses launched a replacement Greenline 702 commercial service run from their depot in Reading. This was later complimented by the 703 service run by Thames Valley between Heathrow T5, Slough, Windsor and Bracknell, funded by Heathrow.

Carousel initially got a foothold in Slough by running some Sunday tendered services to High Wycombe on the 74, they then expanded onto the Amersham-Gerrards Cross-Wexham-Slough routes and launched a commercial service to Wycombe via Beaconsfield a few years after Arriva withdrew the 74 route. Carousel have gradually taken opportunities to expand their network over time, initially taking routes from Arriva who they would subsequently defeat in the long running bus war in High Wycombe.

Wow thank you so much, that is very thorough and helps me put a lot of observations in context. Much appreciated. So it seems to me that the problem lies with the business model of treating the entire Thames Valley as a secondary market, while other operators at least would invest in a few routes in the region to look like they are shaking things up.

 

[Deerfold]

Wow thank you so much, that is very thorough and helps me put a lot of observations in context. Much appreciated. So it seems to me that the problem lies with the business model of treating the entire Thames Valley as a secondary market, while other operators at least would invest in a few routes in the region to look like they are shaking things up.

30 years ago First were advertising for drivers as jobs needing no Evening or Sunday driving. Which was quite dispiriting as a passenger. When I lived in Burnham and worked in London they didn't start running early enough for my morning train and had stopped running by the time I returned. They've withdrawn the 3 nearest routes to where I lived since then.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Wow thank you so much, that is very thorough and helps me put a lot of observations in context. Much appreciated. So it seems to me that the problem lies with the business model of treating the entire Thames Valley as a secondary market, while other operators at least would invest in a few routes in the region to look like they are shaking things up.

Indeed, and a strong municipal bus company (Reading Buses) that has expanded into a region which is quite fertile territory for public transport anyway has challenged their stagnant growth prospects. Same with Carousel's rapid pace of innovation and growth after Arriva the Shires effectively collapsed.

 

[cactustwirly]

Indeed, and a strong municipal bus company (Reading Buses) that has expanded into a region which is quite fertile territory for public transport anyway has challenged their stagnant growth prospects. Same with Carousel's rapid pace of innovation and growth after Arriva the Shires effectively collapsed.

Quite fertile is a stretch, basically most of Thames Valley and N&D routes are subsidised, except for the 703 and 194 routes basically.

Go Ahead can be quite aggressive, I can see them going for more of the Thames Valley routes, like the Slough and Wokingham routes when they come up for tender

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite fertile is a stretch, basically most of Thames Valley and N&D routes are subsidised, except for the 703 and 194 routes basically.

And the 171/172.

 

[Mark L]

And the 171/172.

I *think* N&D service 1 is commercial. Thames Valley 5, 7 (at least the day time element), 16 and 20 also are run commercially.

 

[Goldfish62]

I *think* N&D service 1 is commercial. Thames Valley 5, 7 (at least the day time element), 16 and 20 also are run commercially.

The 1 is partly subsidised, so I'm guessing evenings, Sundays or individual early or late journeys.

 

[Flange Squeal]

In addition to the 5, 16, 20, 171/172, 194, 703 (although I think this gets some support from Heathrow) and majority of the 7’s provision as mentioned above, I believe Thames Valley’s 2 (Windsor to Wexham Park Hospital via Slough) and 704 (Maidenhead to Heathrow via Slough) are also commercially operated.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Quite fertile is a stretch, basically most of Thames Valley and N&D routes are subsidised, except for the 703 and 194 routes basically.

Go Ahead can be quite aggressive, I can see them going for more of the Thames Valley routes, like the Slough and Wokingham routes when they come up for tender

Although I think the initiative from Reading/Thames Valley Buses to operate new commercial routes completely unprompted by a request from local authorities or other key stakeholders shows that the market is reasonably fertile territory, especially with a high quality operation (the very low quality of the Arriva the Shires operation and infrequent timetables on several Thames Travel routes did limit growth on the former 800/143 routes - now partly superseded by the 28 and 43 Reading Buses routes).

I can't see Go Ahead attempting to make further incursions into Thames Valley territory unless it's short extensions of existing routes, or new express interurban routes (likely subsidised partly by Heathrow).
Competition from the Red Group of bus companies is a greater threat to their core High Wycombe base of operations, especially the lack of a Carousel presence on the key High Wycombe to Aylesbury corridor.

 

[cactustwirly]

Although I think the initiative from Reading/Thames Valley Buses to operate new commercial routes completely unprompted by a request from local authorities or other key stakeholders shows that the market is reasonably fertile territory, especially with a high quality operation (the very low quality of the Arriva the Shires operation and infrequent timetables on several Thames Travel routes did limit growth on the former 800/143 routes - now partly superseded by the 28 and 43 Reading Buses routes).

I can't see Go Ahead attempting to make further incursions into Thames Valley territory unless it's short extensions of existing routes, or new express interurban routes (likely subsidised partly by Heathrow).
Competition from the Red Group of bus companies is a greater threat to their core High Wycombe base of operations, especially the lack of a Carousel presence on the key High Wycombe to Aylesbury corridor.

The 43 is a Subsidised route

I can definitely see them making incursions, when contracts are up for renewal

 

[Mark L]

.
Competition from the Red Group of bus companies is a greater threat to their core High Wycombe base of operations, especially the lack of a Carousel presence on the key High Wycombe to Aylesbury corridor.

Carousel will have taken a conscious decision not to register anything on the Aylesbury - Wycombe corridor when it stepped up services following the Arriva pullout. It may not actually be that lucrative!

 

[AlastairFraser]

The 43 is a Subsidised route

I can definitely see them making incursions, when contracts are up for renewal

True. Swap the 43 for the 12 then.
Maybe they will pick up a few contracts, but they must be careful not to overstretch themselves (and Red Group routes are far more valuable to them in the long run).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2026 ==

Carousel will have taken a conscious decision not to register anything on the Aylesbury - Wycombe corridor when it stepped up services following the Arriva pullout. It may not actually be that lucrative!

I think they didn't want a fight with Red Group when they are undergoing a huge expansion, to be honest.
It does get quite a few passengers because there are several sizeable communities that are away from the railway and on the bus route (e.g. Naphill, Walters Ash including RAF High Wycombe and Lacey Green) and key destinations like Stoke Mandeville Hospital too to boost passenger numbers.

 

[Tramtrain]

Speaking of Wokingham services coming up for tender, the council is currently consulting for opinions on changes to services, albeit the proposals are very vague at the moment

Citizen engagement platform

 

[markymark2000]

Speaking of Wokingham services coming up for tender, the council is currently consulting for opinions on changes to services, albeit the proposals are very vague at the moment

Citizen engagement platform

The proposals are revealed only once you have signed up and filled in half of the survey (because.... logic?!?!?)

The few things that I found were the following:
128/129 proposal is to split the route in Twyford to have a Reading-Twyford route (why is anyone's guess when the only place at a loss is Sonning and you could just throw funding at the Reading 12 for that rather than a separate route) and Twyford to Wokingham
Route 124 there is a strong hint at withdrawal as it states in the description for the question about the route being used by very few people.
Route 125 there is a question about whether people would prefer the Saturday service to keep running to Camberley Meadows, or whether people would prefer the service to be more consistent with the Mon-Fri timetable.
Gathering information for various new routes around North Wokingham new housing estates, and between Woodley to Wokingham, Earley to Wokingham, Woodley to Twyford Rail Station and Wokingham to Twyford Rail Station

 

[Mwanesh]

Carousel will have taken a conscious decision not to register anything on the Aylesbury - Wycombe corridor when it stepped up services following the Arriva pullout. It may not actually be that lucrative!

The Aylesbury-High Wycombe route was busy many years ago .I left the Shires around 2006 .

 

[Fletcj10]

Yeah the Reading - Twyford section already has enough buses & Reading's 12 when i see it only has one person & that's the driver.... even being a Reading bus nut born & bread it strikes me that they haven't decided to to relaunch the 128/129 properly into Woodley, i know its been mentioned before that people want that, more so the Woodley - Twyford run not to mention that the Carousel 127 service is self funded so might as well take the funding from that and help Carousel (if needed) otherwise put that into the 128/129 serving Sonning & Woodley instead.

The 124 that doesn't surprise me its what 6/7 stops i think.

125... can't comment

I mean just another thing (unsure if possible) but i know a few people on the 19 route which would like a Sunday service, doesn't have to be hourly but at least something.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

Yeah the Reading - Twyford section already has enough buses & Reading's 12 when i see it only has one person & that's the driver.... even being a Reading bus nut born & bread it strikes me that they haven't decided to to relaunch the 128/129 properly into Woodley, i know its been mentioned before that people want that, more so the Woodley - Twyford run not to mention that the Carousel 127 service is self funded so might as well take the funding from that and help Carousel (if needed) otherwise put that into the 128/129 serving Sonning & Woodley instead.

The 124 that doesn't surprise me its what 6/7 stops i think.

125... can't comment

I mean just another thing (unsure if possible) but i know a few people on the 19 route which would like a Sunday service, doesn't have to be hourly but at least something.

Adding to this i think trying to keep it a Thames Valley route (not Reading) would also keep costs lower as driver's are on lower wage at TV then RB

 

[Mark L]

The Aylesbury-High Wycombe route was busy many years ago .I left the Shires around 2006 .

I suspect Red Line’s parallel operation had an impact on loadings - I think this started in about 2015.

 

[Tramtrain]

The proposals are revealed only once you have signed up and filled in half of the survey (because.... logic?!?!?)

The few things that I found were the following:
128/129 proposal is to split the route in Twyford to have a Reading-Twyford route (why is anyone's guess when the only place at a loss is Sonning and you could just throw funding at the Reading 12 for that rather than a separate route) and Twyford to Wokingham
Route 124 there is a strong hint at withdrawal as it states in the description for the question about the route being used by very few people.
Route 125 there is a question about whether people would prefer the Saturday service to keep running to Camberley Meadows, or whether people would prefer the service to be more consistent with the Mon-Fri timetable.
Gathering information for various new routes around North Wokingham new housing estates, and between Woodley to Wokingham, Earley to Wokingham, Woodley to Twyford Rail Station and Wokingham to Twyford Rail Station

Certainly North Wokingham is woefully underserved, and the current 121 doesn’t really cover much of the town. Extending that to Twyford would make sense. There are so many commuters the drive Wokingham to Twyford, a reasonable service that isn’t <1ph and only down Reading Road, or non existent at the evenings and weekends would be used

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I detect brown envelopes being handed around...

Coming a bit late to this, but I don't think there's any need to imply corruption. Slough Council is to all intents and purposes bankrupt, and the commissioners who have been put in charge are (as far as I can make out) very firm that any spare capital assets should be liquidated to reduce the debt. I suspect that the commissioners see the bus station as a spare asset.

For full disclosure: I am a former Slough Labour Councillor, and it was the (former) Labour Council that managed to go bankrupt. But my last involvement was over 25 years ago, and I now live 200 miles away: I have thought long and hard about whether there was anything I could have done which would have changed that outcome, and concluded that time (and distance) is such that it's not my fault.

 

[nctd2306]

It looks as though the majority of the new EV buses have entered service today on routes 17 and 21 (and a couple of the generics on the 26)
Bus 4 (RG04 ZEB) is wearing a special livery to commemorate 125 years of the company.

I know the CNG 67 plate buses that have been on the 17 for the past few years will be going onto the 23/24 and (I believe) the Sky Blue routes 15/16. Out of the routes operated by the ex Hybrid enviro 400s, that just leaves the 26, does anyone know what will be replacing these vehicles?

 

[Beemax]

Reading's 17 and 21 went all electric this morning using the 24 new MMCs . I thought it was quite brave having an all-out launch on a Friday instead of a gradual drip-feed, but the 17s at least seemed to be operating Ok when I passed several of them on Oxford Road at 7 this morning .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

It looks as though the majority of the new EV buses have entered service today on routes 17 and 21 (and a couple of the generics on the 26)
Bus 4 (RG04 ZEB) is wearing a special livery to commemorate 125 years of the company.

I know the CNG 67 plate buses that have been on the 17 for the past few years will be going onto the 23/24 and (I believe) the Sky Blue routes 15/16. Out of the routes operated by the ex Hybrid enviro 400s, that just leaves the 26, does anyone know what will be replacing these vehicles?

Thre will be more E400 MMC electrics later this year for the 26

 

[aswilliamsuk]

It looks as though the majority of the new EV buses have entered service today on routes 17 and 21 (and a couple of the generics on the 26)
Bus 4 (RG04 ZEB) is wearing a special livery to commemorate 125 years of the company.

I know the CNG 67 plate buses that have been on the 17 for the past few years will be going onto the 23/24 and (I believe) the Sky Blue routes 15/16. Out of the routes operated by the ex Hybrid enviro 400s, that just leaves the 26, does anyone know what will be replacing these vehicles?

Eight more E400EV are on order for the 26, due later this year.

 

[nctd2306]

Eight more E400EV are on order for the 26, due later this year.


Thre will be more E400 MMC electrics later this year for the 26

Ah thank you both, I couldn't remember if new buses were on order (for the 26) or if they were being replaced with cascaded ones!

I do hope the recently transferred e200s to Thames Valley get repainted soon, it took them years to repaint all the Ex Courtney ones and now those repainted ones have returned to the leasing company, we are once again left with lots of plain white buses running around, very out of place compared to Reading's branded buses (and the newer TV vehicles).

 

[Mark L]

Ah thank you both, I couldn't remember if new buses were on order (for the 26) or if they were being replaced with cascaded ones!

All bar 21, which has yet to be delivered, entered service today. As noted they will be used primarily on routes 17 (Wokingham Road - Tilehurst) and 21 (Station - Lower Earley) for which most are branded but the generic vehicles will also be used on the 26 (Station - Calcot).

Bus 1 is in generic silver.
Bus 2 carries a ZEBRA design to promote Zero Emission Buses for the Reading Area, following on from 421 that has a cow design to promote biomethane gas buses, and the leopard and lion bus routes.

Bus 3 carries the latest global warming stripes, with a couple more years than similar bus 431. The stripes were designed by Reading University lead scientist Ed Hawkins as a visual representation of the change in temperature over the past 100+ years. Each stripe or bar represents the temperature in Berkshire averaged over a year, the darker red being the hottest. They often feature on news items relating to the climate, at COP conferences, and on Greta Thunburg's Climate Book.

Bus 4 is purple but carries a wrap to mark the 125th anniversary of local ownership. There is a programme of events planned this year to celebrate this.

Buses 5-18 are also branded for purple 17, and 19-24 for claret 21. Each have individual adverts on the sides and rear promoting the virtues of the buses, and a photo mural on the stairwell. They also have aCCTV monitor at the base of the stairs to give a good view of the upper deck - this is designed to encourage passengers to go upstairs if there are seats available.

Later this year eight more buses will be delivered. Seven will be in yellow for the 26 and one in generic grey.

 

[cactustwirly]

All bar 21, which has yet to be delivered, entered service today. As noted they will be used primarily on routes 17 (Wokingham Road - Tilehurst) and 21 (Station - Lower Earley) for which most are branded but the generic vehicles will also be used on the 26 (Station - Calcot).

Bus 1 is in generic silver.
Bus 2 carries a ZEBRA design to promote Zero Emission Buses for the Reading Area, following on from 421 that has a cow design to promote biomethane gas buses, and the leopard and lion bus routes.

Bus 3 carries the latest global warming stripes, with a couple more years than similar bus 431. The stripes were designed by Reading University lead scientist Ed Hawkins as a visual representation of the change in temperature over the past 100+ years. Each stripe or bar represents the temperature in Berkshire averaged over a year, the darker red being the hottest. They often feature on news items relating to the climate, at COP conferences, and on Greta Thunburg's Climate Book.

Bus 4 is purple but carries a wrap to mark the 125th anniversary of local ownership. There is a programme of events planned this year to celebrate this.

Buses 5-18 are also branded for purple 17, and 19-24 for claret 21. Each have individual adverts on the sides and rear promoting the virtues of the buses, and a photo mural on the stairwell. They also have aCCTV monitor at the base of the stairs to give a good view of the upper deck - this is designed to encourage passengers to go upstairs if there are seats available.

Later this year eight more buses will be delivered. Seven will be in yellow for the 26 and one in generic grey.

Does that mean the 26 and 5/6 night bus is planned for the EVs? Currently it's a generic and mostly the newest E400 City turn up