Re-Boarding An Empty Train And The Possible Consequences

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

A few weeks a go I travelled up to Derby from London on a Friday evening before changing for the last train up the Matlock branch. Having had a long week at work and a few post work pints I slept for most of the journey. On arrival at Derby I alighted from the terminating service and boarded the Matlock train before realising that I'd left my phone on the Meridian. With no one on the platform to ask for help I got back on the Meridian and quickly retrieved my phone. However, much to my horror all the doors had subsequently been locked on the four car unit other than the last door at the London end. On making my escape an EMT employee expressed surprise that she had not seen me when she checked the train but I just shrugged my shoulders and marched off.

Now I happily admit that what I did was stupid and I should have simply contacted EMT the following morning in the expectation that my phone would have been found by the cleaners. However, given that the Meridian had already pulled out of the station by the time the Matlock train had left I wonder what the consequences had been if I'd not been able to get off. If I'd been able to alert the driver would he have been able to return the train to the station or would I have been transported straight to Etches Park. If so would I have been escorted back to the station with a telling off or would I have faced being prosecuted?

Any responses would be very welcome. Suffice to say I won't make the same mistake twice!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[Muzer]

I would probably pull the pascom in such a situation myself to alert the driver that I was there, but I can see how this would simply not occur to some people. Would probably be easier (for you and for the driver/guard in question!) than waiting until you get to the depot, at least! If you alert the driver before they leave, hopefully they can simply reopen the doors and let you out (I don't know if there would be any additional paperwork for this though - I'm not railway staff!), then reset the pascom and be on their way. I don't know what they'd do if they had already started moving by the time you alerted them.

As you say, the real answer is not to get back on

 

[bunnahabhain]

People have been taken into Etches Park before, a colleague did it once in similar circumstances, generally once you've left the platforms you're stuffed; My colleague had to escort them back up to the station from the park.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do Meridians have the ability for the internal doors to be physically locked (so the staff member checking the train can lock each coach as they go to make sure everyone gets off?

 

[The Ham]

Do Meridians have the ability for the internal doors to be physically locked (so the staff member checking the train can lock each coach as they go to make sure everyone gets off?

Surley the easier thing to do is for the guard to lock the external doors and then if anyone is found unlock one door for them to leave by,

 

[34D]

Sounds like a good way to score some new track

 

[whhistle]

And just to conform, no, EMT would not simply stop the train and allow the person off - even if the last coach was still on the platform.

 

[Nippy]

We had an HST stop with a pass com at Kensal Carriage wash, driver investigated and found the punter. Quick change of ends, back to Padd and try again.

 

[LowLevel]

Surley the easier thing to do is for the guard to lock the external doors and then if anyone is found unlock one door for them to leave by,

Doesn't work like that on 222s. You can only open the crew doors in the buffet or first class or the cab doors without the driver. After you've checked everyone is off you can walk down the outside to have a final check as passengers being sent to the depot is a safety issue which you will get all sorts of paperwork for. If you can prove you checked the train the consequences are less severe but still unpleasant when you get a 'please explain'.

I'm interested to know why whistle thinks you wouldn't stop the train to let the passenger off as a passenger on a DOO-NP train going onto a non-passenger line is definitely an operating incident. If it was me on the platform and I noticed it going out I'd be straight on to the box to tell the driver via GSMR.

 

[thelem]

If so would I have been escorted back to the station with a telling off or would I have faced being prosecuted?

I don't see how a passenger could get in trouble for boarding an unlocked train, although the staff might for not noticing.

In Brighton the class 319s are locked by the platform staff, who press buttons on the outside of each carriage, which avoids this problem but I guess makes it easier for someone to deliberately hide in a carriage. A better solution would be to have a mode where the doors could be opened from the inside but not the outside, for a walk through inside the train.

 

[BestWestern]

Surley the easier thing to do is for the guard to lock the external doors and then if anyone is found unlock one door for them to leave by,

Doesn't work like that on 222s. You can only open the crew doors in the buffet or first class or the cab doors without the driver. After you've checked everyone is off you can walk down the outside to have a final check as passengers being sent to the depot is a safety issue which you will get all sorts of paperwork for. If you can prove you checked the train the consequences are less severe but still unpleasant when you get a 'please explain'.

I'm interested to know why whistle thinks you wouldn't stop the train to let the passenger off as a passenger on a DOO-NP train going onto a non-passenger line is definitely an operating incident. If it was me on the platform and I noticed it going out I'd be straight on to the box to tell the driver via GSMR.

Are there no passenger-accessible doors which can be released by the Guard whilst in a platform? It seems utterly ridiculous to have staff tasked with checking that a train is empty but have no way of sensibly releasing anybody who is found on board!

The only 'safe' way of checking a train is clear of passengers is to lock the doors first and then do the walk through check, anything else is a waste of time. A final check walking down the outside seems pointless since anybody joining after you've been through is likely to have gone straight into a toilet!

I agree that any reasonable effort ought to be made to prevent a passenger joyriding into a depot!

 

[LowLevel]

Are there no passenger-accessible doors which can be released by the Guard whilst in a platform? It seems utterly ridiculous to have staff tasked with checking that a train is empty but have no way of sensibly releasing anybody who is found on board!

The only 'safe' way of checking a train is clear of passengers is to lock the doors first and then do the walk through check, anything else is a waste of time. A final check walking down the outside seems pointless since anybody joining after you've been through is likely to have gone straight into a toilet!

I agree that any reasonable effort ought to be made to prevent a passenger joyriding into a depot!

I should clarify I meant the only doors that could be opened except the cab door are the buffet bar and kitchen crew doors. They are in the main area of the train but not operable by passengers. Any of the other doors require a full release from the driver so you only have 2 points to detrain them.

 

[Qwerty133]

I once saw a member of platform staff let a passenger off a XC 170 at Leicester, through the cab door. Not as bad as this situation, as the train was going back into service and the doors would've been reopened within 10-20 minutes, but still not a situation you'd want to find yourself in.

 

[edwin_m]

The Underground has a button on the end of each coach that will close its doors. When a train goes out of service a staff member will check each coach and then press the button before moving on to the next. They would be likely to notice if someone jumped on the coach they were just in the course of checking. With gangwayed trains there is the possibility of someone going through from a coach just about to be checked to one that just has been, and where toilets are provided these would need checking too. However it should be possible with main line stock to close but not lock all the doors, have person A go through inside while person B watches from the platform to make sure nobody else boards.

 

[badassunicorn]

Happens fairly regularly at the depot where I work, people either fall asleep or are on their phones, usually they pull a passcom on the way to the depot, or once they see they are in the depot, or just scare the sh**t out of the member of staff who is walking through the train once its stabled in the yard!

 

[tcm1106]

Do 350s not have the same button on the end of the intermediate vehicles?

 

[infobleep]

I was once overcarried at Harrow and Wealdstone. I was fixing the zip on my bag and thought I had more time than I actually did you leave the train and that staff checked that passengers have left. They don't, well not off peak at least. That just delayed me by 10 minutes. I can't see why staff would have been at fault.

Another time I was on a crowded Euston station as people all got a London Midland service. I boarded the wrong one. Soon the lights went out whilst I was in the loo. Someone came through I think but didn't seem to notice my door locked. Fortunately I got out in time.


The worst or best experience, depending on your view, was a return journey from Portsmouth to Guildford. There was a train problem. I see people all starting to get off so instead of just packing up I decided to go and ask the guard first was what was going on.

Guard explained and thought I'd got off. I went back to pack up however. Just as I finished and got to the doors, they had closed. I did manage to alert a member of staff on the platform but it was too late. Turns out the communications system had failed so train had to be taken out of service on safety grounds.

As the guard was going back to Guildford anyway, the train was stopping there. So I was told to sit in first class near the front. I felt awkward about the situation. From talking to someone else from another TOC, I get the impression the guard and/or station staff might have got a telling off for not checking thoroughly enough. However we are all human and no one is perfect.

 

[Elwyn]

I fell asleep on a train some years back and ended up in West Worthing sidings at 0100ish. Staff woke me up and escorted me safely to an exit. They could not have been more helpful. There was list of taxi phone numbers in their office which they offered me. I was evidently not the first to have come unstuck like that.

 

[No Fault Found]

We had an HST stop with a pass com at Kensal Carriage wash, driver investigated and found the punter. Quick change of ends, back to Padd and try again.

Really????

Surely continuing to OOC and a taxi for said punter is much cheaper and easier?

 

[tony6499]

Used to be/still is as far as I know for people to be carried up to Lovers Walk on the empties off the last trains arriving at Brighton. It's really a consequence of too many trains arriving and not enough platform staff booked on duty. Many a time the empties would have to come back out of Lovers drop the punter on the platform and then return back to the sidings.

It's one of the things that happen now with the numbers of staff cut and not the ability to be in 2 places at one time.

 

[40fan]

I didn't actually board an empty train at Manchester Piccadilly a few years ago, I just didn't realise it terminated there. Driver or guard noticed me and said where are you going? Oxford Road I said, and he invited me to stay on for the e.c.s move to Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[infobleep]

Someone told me a passenger was using the loo and he needed up in Lovers Walk depot. The passenger was apparently so apologetic. I wouldn't say it was the passengers fault in such circumstances.

In an ideal world I personally wouldn't mind seeing the inside of Lovers Walk Depot. However I wouldn't be attempting to do so any time soon!

 

[GatwickDepress]

This has happened to me twice. I got overcarried into the Ore turnback siding, and ages ago now, I fell asleep and was woken up by a member of staff in Victoria carriage shed. :blush:

 

[sd0733]

Do 350s not have the same button on the end of the intermediate vehicles?

Yes they do. At my depot we are told not to use them though, I believe the more southerly depots use them.
If a passenger ever ends up carried on ecs to LNWR at Crewe they have to get BTP out to give said passenger a lift back to the station and the guard responsible for emptying the train gets a meeting with the managers

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'd say pretty much any driver/guard of a reasonable level of experience has carried a passenger somewhere they shouldn't at some point. When people keep jumping on the train behind you when you are trying to check the train is empty it is inevitable sooner or later. In the overwhelming majority of cases no harm seems to be done.

 

[Busaholic]

Slightly off-topic, but it might interest some forum members, about 30 years ago in the days of slam-doored stock I was working in Kent but living in Hither Green in S,E, London and one night caught a train from Folkestone Charing Cross bound that was going to pass through Hither Green non-stop, the only problem being that when it was timed to get into London I would miss the last stopper back by 2 minutes! I decided to present my predicament to the guard who had a word with the driver and came back to tell me that as we went through Hither Green he would slow down sufficiently for me to open the door, take a runnung jump and slam the door shut again! This was duly accomplished and I went through the ticket barrier to be asked where I'd come from, but as I was able to proffer the correct ticket, all was well. At the time I worked for the Probation Service so I was used to being told to take a running jump!

 

[celeborne]

We had a call from Driver on his way to the depot reporting someone left on the train. We (the Signalbox) told him to return to the station but control told him to carry on to the depot. They soon stopped that when we reminded them of the 1889 railway act. To accidentally send a passenger over unlocked points is not against the law. To deliberately do so I think may be an offence. :

 

[TomJ93]

I thought I'd end up in a depot because I didn't know the about the loop at Kennington! Some poor old bloke looked ever so worried at me being carted off into a tunnel!

 

[Minilad]

I remember in the olden days deliberately hiding in the toilets at Hull after arriving from The Cross behind a Deltic so you could get the 03 shunt to release the engine in the book

We have on occasion had people taken to Central Rivers but its not that common

 

[Nippy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nippy
We had an HST stop with a pass com at Kensal Carriage wash, driver investigated and found the punter. Quick change of ends, back to Padd and try again.

Really????

Surely continuing to OOC and a taxi for said punter is much cheaper and easier?

Yes, because apart from me, the driver and the over carried punter no one else was any the wiser! No form filling required, meeting with management etc. punter back in Padd in under 15 minutes. They would have probably spent that sat at Mitre Bridge waiting to get into OOC.