Railway Wages

[Toots]

My thread and i say he was to aggresive, you could of just said i don't understand your question, or rephrase it, but no he jumped on his high horse.
I never intended to have a go a railway workers wages, i asked if this was one reason why according to the magazine i read renewals are so high, railway wages are very good compared to other industries.
Your right about Network rail contracting the renewals out but they do the pricing, and are in charge, there is always a NR Rep on every job contractors do

I understood your question perfectly,it's just that you'd already decided the answer when you posted it.It would have been similar to saying ' Which supermarket is the most expensive?....and why do Tesco charge so much'?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

What more can I say?! I am trying to make the point that it is not indisuptable that Labour deliberately encouraged immigrant so that wages, and inflation could be kept low.

The key words for me here are deliberately, and encouraged.

An equally valid point of view is that Labour were a useless government who made a lot of mistakes, mostly due to incomptetence. To me this is a far more credible interpretation, as it takes into account the other mistakes and decisions that they made during their term of office.

Yes, to me Labour were guilty of monumental stupidity in a number of areas, and I doubt they had the collective intelligence necessary to think up a deliberate policy of this type to control inflation!

I am not trying defend Labour in the slightest! All I am attempting to do is to point out that your view is not the only one!

Given the warnings that were made to them at the time, I can't give that explanation credibility, but fair enough, it's an alternative explanation...

Personally I think that Labour were a devastatingly good and intelligent electoral force, neutering the Conservatives and building a power base of public sector employees, dependent on the Government teet and securing their vote. But that's way off topic now....

Anyway, I think we're both sort of in agreement as to one of the reaons bus drivers wages are lower than perhaps they should be.

 

[Greenback]

Given the warnings that were made to them at the time, I can't give that explanation credibility, but fair enough, it's an alternative explanation...

Personally I think that Labour were a devastatingly good and intelligent electoral force, neutering the Conservatives and building a power base of public sector employees, dependent on the Government teet and securing their vote. But that's way off topic now....

Anyway, I think we're both sort of in agreement as to one of the reaons bus drivers wages are lower than perhaps they should be.

Yes we are! I certainly think that bus drivers deserve more due to the responsibilities they have.

It's only a question of semantics otherwise - your interpretation of the immigration question is both possible and credible, but there are alternatives!

 

[Toots]

Personally I think that Labour were a devastatingly good and intelligent electoral force, neutering the Conservatives and building a power base of public sector employees, dependent on the Government teet and securing their vote. But that's way off topic now....

And you are talking utter rubbish as well.Just because someone works for the public sector doesn't mean they are scroungers as you infer,'dependent on the government teet',the fact is that although many employees are govrenment funded,the alternative is mass unemployment and the problems that brings.

 

[Greenback]

And you are talking utter rubbish as well.Just because someone works for the public sector doesn't mean they are scroungers as you infer,'dependent on the government teet',the fact is that although many employees are govrenment funded,the alternative is mass unemployment and the problems that brings.

Most public sector employees of my acquaintance are quite moderate in their political views - hardly any of them conform to the Labour voting stereotypes that are so often prominently featured in our glorious print media!

I also feel that a lot of people, when they refer to the public sector, are only thinking in terms of the civil service, which has a very poor reputation in many people's eyes these days, again largely due to the media.

Most people think of civil servants as lazy, overpaid and generally unable of holding down a job anywhere else.

Whether or not this is true, people tend not to think the same way about nurses, our armed forces or other parts of the public sector.

 

[ole man]

I understood your question perfectly,it's just that you'd already decided the answer when you posted it.It would have been similar to saying ' Which supermarket is the most expensive?....and why do Tesco charge so much'?

I hadn't already decided, i was asking a question.

 

[Toots]

Greenback,I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about,in fact I'm not sure you know exactly what you are talking about!.I was replying to the 'government teet' quote,ergo, people employed by the government,you say 'most people',but how do you quantify that?,in fact you use the words 'most' and 'many' in an apparent attempt to back up your views but you don't seem to have any basis on which to base these claims on.
What are 'Labour voting stereotypes'?,they had a majority for well over a decade,but I didn't really see that many red books,cloth caps or whippets being bandied about,in fact there were very few strikes either,so that would suggest it was everyday people who didn't have an agenda as such,anyway must go,don't want the black pudding getting burnt...:roll:

 

[Greenback]

Greenback,I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about,in fact I'm not sure you know exactly what you are talking about!.I was replying to the 'government teet' quote,ergo, people employed by the government,you say 'most people',but how do you quantify that?,in fact you use the words 'most' and 'many' in an apparent attempt to back up your views but you don't seem to have any basis on which to base these claims on.
What are 'Labour voting stereotypes'?,they had a majority for well over a decade,but I didn't really see that many red books,cloth caps or whippets being bandied about,in fact there were very few strikes either,so that would suggest it was everyday people didn't have an agenda as such,anyway must go,don't want the black pudding getting burnt...:roll:

I am attempting to put the earlier post by get pulled off into some sort of context. I am speaking generally based on my conversations with people of my acquaintance and hopw they view people who are employed by the government, inculding nurses and the armed forces, rather than just the civil service.

The sterotypes I mean are those that are presented ocntinually in the media. The ones that get pulled off draws upon in their post in fact. The image that is created is one of lazy, overpaid people voting Labour due to their self interest in seeing the grossly inefficient public sector status quo continue, regardless of how they mgiht feel about other political issues. There are no red books, cloth caps or whippets involved,

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It's amazing how successful the government are at getting the proles to argue amongst themselves about who gets sh*t on the most, isn't it?

 

[Toots]

Again we have lots of generalisation but no substance,who are these lazy overpaid people,and I'm figuring there must be hundreds if it's worth quoting and the problem that bad,so who are they,or what do they do.The people I associate with waste and being overpayed are speculators and bankers who seem to get away with criticsm,yet even now fill their pockets after they caused the problem in the first place,or don't they fit your stereotype?.

 

[Greenback]

Again we have lots of generalisation but no substance,who are these lazy overpaid people,and I'm figuring there must be hundreds if it's worth quoting and the problem that bad,so who are they,or what do they do.The people I associate with waste and being overpayed are speculators and bankers who seem to get away with criticsm,yet even now fill their pockets after they caused the problem in the first place,or don't they fit your stereotype?.

There are none. It is how the right wing print media portray the public sector.
They are not my sterotypes. Just look at any edition of 'newspapers' like the Mail or Express and you might spot a few.

Unfortunately, some people just accept what is printed as fact, which is why it continues, and the more often the lies are repeated, the more people seem to accept it.

 

[Smudger105e]

Unfortunately, some people just accept what is printed as fact, which is why it continues, and the more often the lies are repeated, the more people seem to accept it.

A while ago I did an OU course in Social Sciences, and we had to compare two articles about a specific Government policy, one written for the Mirror and one for the Daily Mail, it is amazing how the 'facts' meant such different things to each writer. You wouldn't think they were talking about the same thing!! I will try to find two articles and post on here, just to show the different politacal viewpoints or a subject.

Personally I wouldn't trust anything in the press 100%, even the broadsheets...

 

[Greenback]

Quite right. I did a similar module when in University. What is presented by most so calles newspapers are not facts in the true sense of the word, but an opinion, based on a selective interpretation of the facts.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I never said that public sector workers were lazy, or they were scroungers. Many do a fine and admirable job. I simply say that as is human nature, they are naturally self interested in their own prosperity and job security in the same way that private sector employees are. Rightly or wrongly, the Conservatives want small government. If your job was in the public sector, would you vote for a party that was planning to reduce the size of Government? Of course, there are other factors involved, but this is a big one.

Therefore surely it stands to reason that the bigger the public sector, the more people are dependent on Big Government continuing and therefore, the Labour vote is secured/increased? This is NOT a class issue. I would apply this reasoning as much to someone earning £120k as the head of a Quango as I would to clerk in a Town Hall on £15k.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite right. I did a similar module when in University. What is presented by most so calles newspapers are not facts in the true sense of the word, but an opinion, based on a selective interpretation of the facts.

The problem is, the same applies now, I would argue, to the BBC. For that reason I avoid at all costs any BBC news with it's anti-cuts agenda, and get my news from elsewhere. All you here from the BBC is emotianal reaction. I've never heard them once actually acknowledge that spending is NOT being cut. Government spending in cash terms is increasing for the life of the Paliament.

 

[Greenback]

I never said that public sector workers were lazy, or they were scroungers.

I never siad you did! I was trying to point out that some people believe this, purely because it is the image projected from some sections of the wider media!

Many do a fine and admirable job. I simply say that as is human nature, they are naturally self interested in their own prosperity and job security in the same way that private sector employees are. Rightly or wrongly, the Conservatives want small government. If your job was in the public sector, would you vote for a party that was planning to reduce the size of Government? Of course, there are other factors involved, but this is a big one.

I know of public sector employees who say they voted for parties other than Labour. Some say they voted UKIP! Whether they did vote for who they said I cannot sya, of course!

Therefore surely it stands to reason that the bigger the public sector, the more people are dependent on Big Government continuing and therefore, the Labour vote is secured/increased? This is NOT a class issue. I would apply this reasoning as much to someone earning £120k as the head of a Quango as I would to clerk in a Town Hall on £15k.

That is a logical view. People do not always behave in logical ways though. Besides, many of the older staff where I used to work wanted tot ake early retirement or redundancy, but did not have the opportunity. Logically, they should have voted Conservative!

The problem is, the same applies now, I would argue, to the BBC. For that reason I avoid at all costs any BBC news with it's anti-cuts agenda, and get my news from elsewhere. All you here from the BBC is emotianal reaction. I've never heard them once actually acknowledge that spending is NOT being cut. Government spending in cash terms is increasing for the life of the Paliament.

Yes, you can argue that. Where an organisation is largely impartial and balanced, it is easy for it to attract criticism from both ends of the political spectrum. In contrast, the printed media are not required to be impartial, so the Daily Mail, Daily Mirror can't be accuse dof bias in the same way - they are entitled to have an opinion and to express it, unlike the Beeb.

I would suggest that the BBC has a history of challenging the government more than the opposition, regardless of who is in power. Remember the abuse the BBC got from Labour when they were in charge? Maybe, on occasion, they don't get it right, but in principle, it is right that the party in power should b scrutinised more, as they are the ones that actually have the power to make decisions, ratherthan just moan and criticise like the opposition.

 

[Toots]

The problem is, the same applies now, I would argue, to the BBC. For that reason I avoid at all costs any BBC news with it's anti-cuts agenda, and get my news from elsewhere. All you here from the BBC is emotianal reaction. I've never heard them once actually acknowledge that spending is NOT being cut. Government spending in cash terms is increasing for the life of the Paliament.

And herein lies the true dogma of a Tory.'An emotional reaction'?,it's 'emotional reactions' that make us human beings,it is what gives us hope,it's what makes us happy or sad,they govern our entire lives,so to dismiss them is selfish in the extreme.Why would the BBC acknowledge something is not being cut?,it would reporting the motorways are all open,it's just a given,if they close for whatever reason however,you want know,because obviously it will have an effect on you for that particular day.
Greed may be good in Wall Street,but for me,this I'm alright Jack attitude purported by the Conservatives is simply wrong....

 

[tbtc]

Greed may be good in Wall Street,but for me,this I'm alright Jack attitude purported by the Conservatives is simply wrong....

Everyone is greedy these days, from the Government to the TOCs to the Trades Unions to the railway staff. Everyone is clearly only in it to fill their own pockets. No point in pretending otherwise.

 

[Greenback]

I agree that greed and selfishness is mroe prevalent now than it was a couple of generations ago, but I think it;s stretching it a bit to say that everyone is greedy.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

And herein lies the true dogma of a Tory.'An emotional reaction'?,it's 'emotional reactions' that make us human beings,it is what gives us hope,it's what makes us happy or sad,they govern our entire lives,so to dismiss them is selfish in the extreme.Why would the BBC acknowledge something is not being cut?,it would reporting the motorways are all open,it's just a given,if they close for whatever reason however,you want know,because obviously it will have an effect on you for that particular day.
Greed may be good in Wall Street,but for me,this I'm alright Jack attitude purported by the Conservatives is simply wrong....

The problem is reporting on emotial reaction is facile journalism. A typcial report often contains:

"The Tory Government are about to cut their budget and you could lose your job, how do you feel about that?"

"I'm really angry about it"

"So you don't think the Government should cut the budget to the 5-a-day fruit and vegatable education comittee?

"No"

"Do you think the Government should think again?"

"Yes"

Do you really need some over enthusiastic fresh out of uni and wet behind the ears reporter to shove a mic in someone's face to know they are likely to be upset at losing their job? I'm pretty sure I could have guessed that already! I want to see some expert reaction rather than telling me the bleedin' obvious.

In a totally unscienfic poll, a newspaper conducted reasearch into all those who worked for the BBC and stated a political preference on their Facebook pages. The results showed 11 times as many "liberals" as "conservatives".

I'd be staggered if that didn't have an effect on journalisitic output.

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2007/10/there-are-ten-t.html

 

[tbtc]

I agree that greed and selfishness is mroe prevalent now than it was a couple of generations ago, but I think it;s stretching it a bit to say that everyone is greedy.

Fair enough.

Personally I disagree - nowadays people only seem to care about whats in it for them, rather than any "class solidarity" or "principles".

I can't really complain about people trying to get as big a slice of the "cake" for themselves as they can in the modern world (everyone else does), as long as they are honest about it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In a totally unscienfic poll, a newspaper conducted reasearch into all those who worked for the BBC and stated a political preference on their Facebook pages. The results showed 11 times as many "liberals" as "conservatives".

I'd be staggered if that didn't have an effect on journalisitic output

Since the Government is a coalition between Liberal and Conservative then that'd suggest a fairly pro-Government BBC.

What was the percentage of Labour voters?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Since the Government is a coalition between Liberal and Conservative then that'd suggest a fairly pro-Government BBC.

What was the percentage of Labour voters?

At the time, there was no "Labour" option on Facebook, it was Very Liberal, Liberal, Neither?, Conservative or Very Conservative. It was "small c" conservativism, of course.

As I tried to stress, the poll was far from scientific, but just something that give a bit of credibility to the many claims that the BBC is 'left leaning'.

 

[tbtc]

At the time, there was no "Labour" option on Facebook, it was Very Liberal, Liberal, Neither?, Conservative or Very Conservative. It was "small c" conservativism, of course.

As I tried to stress, the poll was far from scientific, but just something that give a bit of credibility to the many claims that the BBC is 'left leaning'.

I'd suggest that "conservatives" are in a minority in the UK. If you are counting "Liberal" as "Left Wing" then the "Liberal/ Left" have won more votes are most general elections than the Conservatives.

Could it be that the BBC represents the British Public better than the make up of most other media companies?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Are you seriously suggesting though that there are 11 times as many "liberals" as there are (small c) conservatives in the country? That was the findings of the survey of the BBC employees. I suggest that isn't true by a gigantic margin.

You are right in that recently "left leaning" parties have won a bigger share the vote in general elections, it is not true for local or European elections. In the 2009 Eurpean Elections Conservatives and UKIP got approximately 48% of the vote and Labour and Lib Dems about 30% or something in that ball park. So it's not as simple as you're making it. The country is far more divided.

Now, you could interpet those results in one of two ways. 1) People vote more "seriously" in General Elections and so that results is more accurate OR 2) People vote for who they really want in local elections and European elections because there is no need to vote tactically as in general elections.

 

[OxtedL]

Remember that essentially no-one votes in European elections.

EDIT: Looked it up, OK, in 2009 turnout was 34.48%, so better than I though but still atrocious. Compare to 65% for the most recent general election.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Whilst that is a valid point, it doesn't adequately explain why UKIP's vote went from 1.5% in a General Election to about 18% in European one. Or that the BNP vote goes from 2% in a General to 7% in a European.

FPTP doew seriously skew results and are not a reliable indicator for the nations political preferences (ironically). I might be stating the obvious but the Conservative vote is seriously under represented in the North and Inner Cities, because many people think there is no point in voting for them in many contituencies because they have more chance of seeing Lord Lucan riding Shergar than they are get a Conservatve MP. The same is true of course (although I would argue to a slightly lesser extent) for Labour in the South East.

 

[OxtedL]

I agree with what you are saying.

However, on top of my point about turnout I would like to suggest that people change voting patterns across different elections as they see their vote affected by different issues.

We have very few SNP and Plaid MPs and yet they can string together a large minority and even occasionally a majority in their respective Parliament/Assembly. A phenomenon commonly experienced is that people who swing one way for a general election will swing the other way for local or European elections to compensate. Which of course means that Plaid and the SNP have a bit of a potential headache on their hands if the Westminster political cycle creates interference with their own.

I would also suggest that very few people actually understand the significance of the European elections, seeing them in a different light to General elections. There is typically much less publicity, and the way that the press treats the EU (because it conveniently fits in with their editorial line and they believe that shifts papers...) makes it incredibly easy for the right wing parties to get in on this.

You can blame a lot on the voting system, but at the end of the day there are loads more things going on.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

You can blame a lot on the voting system, but at the end of the day there are loads more things going on.

Indeed, and I'm not even suggesting tbtc was wrong to say we may have a liberal/left majority. But it's certainly nothing like the magnitude of the BBC survey (if we are giving the survey any credibility, of course).

 

[HSTEd]

I get the impression that lots of the SNPs votes in Scottish elections are disenchanted labour/liberal voters who are voting SNP because of the generic social democratic programme they espouse rather than any feeling of wanting independance.

The problem also with that sort of liberal/conservative poll is that it is largely designed for the American system, where a liberal is basically a social democrat, whereas in the UK we can liberals who are social democrats and liberals who are almost anarcho-capitalist in there zeal about free markets.

 

[Greenback]

Fair enough.

Personally I disagree - nowadays people only seem to care about whats in it for them, rather than any "class solidarity" or "principles".

I can't really complain about people trying to get as big a slice of the "cake" for themselves as they can in the modern world (everyone else does), as long as they are honest about it.

Yes, most people are intereste din getting a bigger share of the cake for themselves, but I believe there still a few people who have principles, hough nto class solidarity as in the traditional meaning. I know of NHS employees who refuse to take private work because they have a belief in fre eehalth care, for example, depsite the fact that they could earn a lot more.

I'd suggest that "conservatives" are in a minority in the UK. If you are counting "Liberal" as "Left Wing" then the "Liberal/ Left" have won more votes are most general elections than the Conservatives.

Could it be that the BBC represents the British Public better than the make up of most other media companies?

Yes!

Indeed, and I'm not even suggesting tbtc was wrong to say we may have a liberal/left majority. But it's certainly nothing like the magnitude of the BBC survey (if we are giving the survey any credibility, of course).

We shouldn't - by your own admission it was a non scientific survey! And it only offered two choices!

I get the impression that lots of the SNPs votes in Scottish elections are disenchanted labour/liberal voters who are voting SNP because of the generic social democratic programme they espouse rather than any feeling of wanting independance.

This is a problem for Plaid Cymru. They might lose votes from pro indpendence supporters because of soem othe raspect of policy they don't like, and they might grab votes from anti independence voters because of those same social aspects,d espite the party being in favour of independence.

In the end, there is more than a single issue in voters minds, as I said previously!

The problem also with that sort of liberal/conservative poll is that it is largely designed for the American system, where a liberal is basically a social democrat, whereas in the UK we can liberals who are social democrats and liberals who are almost anarcho-capitalist in there zeal about free markets.

Indeed. It must have been based on the American two party political system.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

We shouldn't - by your own admission it was a non scientific survey! And it only offered two choices!

True, but set in context to nation as a whole (similar sample size) where there were only 1.5 Liberals to 1 Conservative, the magnitude of the BBC result was quite staggering. I wouldn't like to suggest the result was 100% accurate, which is why I suggest it's not entirely credible to believe the result, but a result like that does not suggest to me that the organisation is entirely reflecting national society.