Railway grades in danger?

[43066]

Don't join the railways, the bus industry or TfL at the moment. None are in a good place.

Not sure I’d necessarily advise that re. the railway. For all the doom and gloom recruitment continues in many areas and Ts and Cs are generally pretty favourable. Obviously it depends where the OP would be joining from.

Sadly the bus industry does indeed seem to be in steep decline from what I understand of it, particularly outside London. I appreciate you will know more about this.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Don't join the railways, the bus industry or TfL at the moment. None are in a good place.

Really?

Railway staff tend to have better pay and job security than almost every other career! Average tenure in Railway companies is very very high compared to elsewhere. These cuts are unprecedented in railway terms, but the idea of a job for life that is almost extinct elsewhere still exists in the railways...

 

[bramling]

Really?

Railway staff tend to have better pay and job security than almost every other career! Average tenure in Railway companies is very very high compared to elsewhere. These cuts are unprecedented in railway terms, but the idea of a job for life that is almost extinct elsewhere still exists in the railways...

Must admit I wouldn’t recommend anyone to join at the moment. Awful atmosphere, and seems to be present pretty much across the board.

Even the “come in, do what I have to do, keep myself to myself, go home at the end of the shift” types are completely hacked off.

Then again, this whole country feels like one massive sewer at the moment, so perhaps the railway industry is simply reflecting wider reality. The whole Covid response combined with the disgraceful example set by the politicians seems to have bred a pig-ignorance amongst a significant proportion of the population.

 

[Goldfish62]

Really?

Railway staff tend to have better pay and job security than almost every other career! Average tenure in Railway companies is very very high compared to elsewhere. These cuts are unprecedented in railway terms, but the idea of a job for life that is almost extinct elsewhere still exists in the railways...

Ok, I was being a bit flippant, but who wants to go straight into a company riddled with industrial strife?

 

[dk1]

Don't join the railways, the bus industry or TfL at the moment. None are in a good place.

Not sure about buses but I wouldn’t worry too much with the other two.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2022 ==

Must admit I wouldn’t recommend anyone to join at the moment. Awful atmosphere, and seems to be present pretty much across the board.

Even the “come in, do what I have to do, keep myself to myself, go home at the end of the shift” types are completely hacked off.

I’ve heard that pretty much since I joined in 1984. First thing I was told was if something better comes along outside to jump ship. Good job I paid no attention. Couldn’t have asked for a better career or the pension to look forward to in the next couple of years & will still only be 56 Mind you that’s still later than my parents retired as publicans but difference is I still enjoy it most of the time & am rather more greedy too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2022 ==

Ok, I was being a bit flippant, but who wants to go straight into a company riddled with industrial strife?

It soon passes over. Look at it like an investment, it’s for the long haul.

 

[Falcon1200]

From a NR point of view, I have always wondered how secure the position of Delay Attribution Clerk / TDA would be going forward.

I would think reasonably safe, given that no matter how the railways are organised and run delays still have to be investigated and explained. More uncertain might be the multiple Performance Sections, poring over every incident to see what delays can be re-attributed to someone else.....

The way the new organisation is set up could have an effect on Control staffing (on privatisation, my office required around 12 extra staff to do essentially the same work as before, because it was now split between different companies), however the work of NR and TOC/FOC Control staff has diverged so much since 1994 that it might prove very difficult to re-integrate.

 

[Javelin_55]

From a NR point of view, I have always wondered how secure the position of Delay Attribution Clerk / TDA would be going forward.

Performance-related positions like TDAs will always be needed in one form or another, just as they were in BR days.
People think of delay attribution as nothing more than arguing over petty minutes here and there, but fundamentally it's about using that data to get the responsible parties to make improvements to the railway.

The only change I could see happening is the TOC/NR teams potentially merging when GBR comes in.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Ok, I was being a bit flippant, but who wants to go straight into a company riddled with industrial strife?

Industrial strife that's came about because workers believe that they can extract a big pay rise at a time when most people are lucky to be getting 3%...

 

[northwichcat]

Is it me, or I feel like this is hyperbole considering HS2 is under construction, Crossrail has just opened and the commitment to the Integrated Rail Plan.

One thing to note about HS2 is it will include a call at a Park & Ride station near Manchester Airport, instead of calling in towns where people live like Stockport, Wilmslow and Macclesfield. It's moving towards a model where if you don't live in a city, you drive to a station.

I am not in the railway industry (yet), but the past few days have been giving me the impression that it's not a good time to be joining the railway.

Hearing about job cuts, pay disputes, strikes, and so on, really does something to those rose-tinted glasses. Maybe that's for the better.

It's not a good time to join any industry. If people have less disposable income, they'll spend less. That'll effect transport, retail, hospitality, tourism, haulage firms etc. The only silver lining is around 1/3 of the population kept their roles during the pandemic but spent less due to stay at home restrictions, meaning they saved more.

 

[bramling]

That £10 billion is £10 billion less for other government spending, and only increases the pressure on everything else.
At the very least it adds a year to the notional recovery time from the Covid overspend/economic impact.
Spending on the energy/food crises was unavoidable, unlike spending on rail.

Opening Crossrail moves that enterprise from capital to opex spend and so is part of the TfL cost burden.
HS2 will be mostly capex ("investment") spend for the rest of the decade.

Who says spending on the “cost of living crisis” was essential? Johnson may have decided it was politically necessary (especially against the backdrop of the self-inflicted bad time he’s been having for months), but this doesn’t mean it was essential nor necessary.

It was never in any manifesto that our tax would be subsidising energy bills, likewise Sunak’s cut in fuel duty doesn’t seem to have transmitted its way to a fall in prices at the pumps. Money pits like furlough, world-beating test & trace, and eat out to help out weren’t in the manifesto either.

Meanwhile, I don’t remember stripping down the railway system being in there, nor even being mentioned. Rail remains the core system of public transport in this country, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation to expect it to be prioritised for funding. In terms of fuel bills, perhaps people shouldn’t have squandered their cash on buying dogs or moving to the countryside during lockdown?!

 

[FGW_DID]

Industrial strife that's came about because workers believe that they can extract a big pay rise at a time when most people are lucky to be getting 3%...

That‘s 3% more than I got last year, 3% more than the year before that, hopefully it’s not that this year as well! Same goes for my other half, who is frontline staff and worked throughout the pandemic, earning a whole lot less than the pop star driver wages that everybody likes to bang on about.
not expecting the earth. I would be happy to be one of your 3%ers!

 

[43066]

Industrial strife that's came about because workers believe that they can extract a big pay rise at a time when most people are lucky to be getting 3%...

Most people, or most people you know?

earning a whole lot less than the pop star driver wages that everybody likes to bang on about.

Pop star driver wages? Do you know many train drivers who earn millions then?!

I get the impression many on here perhaps lack experience of the working world, have no real frame of reference in terms of earnings, and think earning £50k+ per year is like winning the lottery or earning £350k per week as a footballer... Rest assured it really isn’t. Especially if you live in London.

 

[John Bishop]

Most people, or most people you know?



Pop star driver wages? Do you know many train drivers who earn millions then?!

I get the impression many on here perhaps lack experience of the working world, have no real frame of reference in terms of earnings, and think earning £50k+ per year is like winning the lottery or earning £350k per week as a footballer... Rest assured it really isn’t. Especially if you live in London.

Especially when your taxed at 40%!

 

[Watershed]

Especially when your taxed at 40%!

You're only taxed at 40% on earnings above £50k. So you wouldn't pay 40% on anything if you earn £50k, particularly after pensions are deducted.

And whilst 40% sounds very dramatic, once you include National Insurance, marginal tax rates above £50k increase from 33.25% to 43.25%. Whilst that's undoubtedly high, it's not as if your marginal rate is doubling.

Obviously in Scotland things are slightly different.

 

[class ep-09]

All jobs. The threat to the railway is VERY real. It is simply unaffordable at present. Government has made that clear.

All governments made it clear as no passenger railway in the world earns its keep .
But they still keep it as it has wider economical benefits .

So, treat is not very real .

 

[Watershed]

All governments made it clear as no passenger railway in the world earns its keep .
But they still keep it as it has wider economical benefits .

So, treat is not very real .

A lot of people have been lulled into a false sense of security. Had the government known, with the benefit of hindsight, what it was signing up for by agreeing to underwrite the railway back in March 2020 - I very much doubt it would have done so.

 

[43066]

A lot of people have been lulled into a false sense of security. Had the government known, with the benefit of hindsight, what it was signing up for by agreeing to underwrite the railway back in March 2020 - I very much doubt it would have done so.

I tend to think the opposite. A lot of people have bought into fear mongering.

The government has squandered so many billions over the past few years, the railway is (or should be) the least of its worries - as we know revenues are now back to circa. 80%.

 

[Exscrew]

I find this thread to be a pointless exercise.
Nobody truly knows whats the future for staff, cross the bridge when you come to it.

 

[BrummieBobby]

Once again, far too many commentators assume that all railway employees earn a driver's wage...

 

[Bald Rick]

All governments made it clear as no passenger railway in the world earns its keep .
But they still keep it as it has wider economical benefits .

So, treat is not very real .

perhaps you don’t deal with Government on a daily basis, and hear what they are saying.

 

[Starmill]

All governments made it clear as no passenger railway in the world earns its keep .
But they still keep it as it has wider economical benefits .

So, treat is not very real .

Quite a lot of long distance railways are capable of covering all of their operating costs, i.e. all of the costs associated with keeping train services running once the line is built. It's difficult to account for the cost of the initial construction but some routes generate a profit sufficient to make repayments on the kind of debt that would have been needed to get them built, assuming long maturity at very competitive rates, no more than about 3%. Think Madrid - Barcelona, Paris - Lyon, Rome - Naples, Frankfurt - Cologne. Obviously they weren't counting on a pandemic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2022 ==

A lot of people have been lulled into a false sense of security. Had the government known, with the benefit of hindsight, what it was signing up for by agreeing to underwrite the railway back in March 2020 - I very much doubt it would have done so.

I've tried to point this out politely time and again, but despite the growing evidence on the ground of more and more restricted resources unfortunately I think that some people continue to assume that everything they know about the industry based on what was common between privatisation and the onset of the pandemic still holds. Pointing this out does not mean that the claim is that everything is going to fall apart and close down. It simply means that what today is closing Teesside Airport and reducing timetables, or leaving units parked up out of service waiting parts or playing a hard line over rest day working may tomorrow be more wholesale reallocation of resources. Especially away from rural and regional services. Ultimately it however matters relatively little what any of us think is right, given usually what happens is just what Andrew Gilligan wants to do anyway.

 

[geoffk]

Not exactly "railway grades", but how about the ORR? There will be surely no need for a regulator under GBR if the Government is taking the revenue risk. For the safety side something more like the old HMRI. ORR seems to have mission creep as they have stopped trams running at Crich because of an issue with traction poles and we remember the retrospective application of increased clearances on OHLE lines a few years ago which threatened huge increases in costs despite there being no evidence of a risk to safety. Putting my tin hat on now.

 

[Horizon22]

perhaps you don’t deal with Government on a daily basis, and hear what they are saying.

To be fair, I don't think many people do. There's certainly cause for concern but for many it is hard to realise what that may be.

 

[Bantamzen]

A lot of people have been lulled into a false sense of security. Had the government known, with the benefit of hindsight, what it was signing up for by agreeing to underwrite the railway back in March 2020 - I very much doubt it would have done so.

I tend to think the opposite. A lot of people have bought into fear mongering.

The government has squandered so many billions over the past few years, the railway is (or should be) the least of its worries - as we know revenues are now back to circa. 80%.

And yet services run by government owned TOCs are starting to be cut. As I have said countless times, the government are looking for savings, and they are looking for them in publicly financed areas. So if the rail use is at 80% of it's pre-pandemic levels, someone, somewhere in Whitehall is seeing that as a potential 20% cut in operating costs, and I'm sure you know what that will mean. And if the senior civil servants are looking for a career boosting move, that 20% could be quickly increased.

I've included the quote above yours as it is very poignant. With that hindsight, a lot of rail workers would have found themselves furloughed, with no guarantee of a return. It isn't fearing mongering, it is a reality of the public service. Publicly financed services are almost always the first places to find the axe swinging at them when governments need to claw back money.

 

[43066]

And yet services run by government owned TOCs are starting to be cut. As I have said countless times, the government are looking for savings, and they are looking for them in publicly financed areas. So if the rail use is at 80% of it's pre-pandemic levels, someone, somewhere in Whitehall is seeing that as a potential 20% cut in operating costs, and I'm sure you know what that will mean. And if the senior civil servants are looking for a career boosting move, that 20% could be quickly increased.

Fairly obviously a railway’s costs aren’t going to vary up and down by precisely the number of passengers. It also seems most irrational to object to a given level of subsidy - with the pandemic still in the recent past - when there’s scope for that to change in the future. Certainly if things are allowed to remain as bad as they have been at TPE and Northern etc. in the name of “cost saving” there’s every chance that recovery in revenues will continue to be held back.

Anyway none of that is an argument against industrial action. If cuts are inevitable anyway, as we also keep being told on here, the unions meekly rolling over won’t change that. So they might as well dig in and fight as hard as they can.

I've included the quote above yours as it is very poignant. With that hindsight, a lot of rail workers would have found themselves furloughed, with no guarantee of a return. It isn't fearing mongering, it is a reality of the public service. Publicly financed services are almost always the first places to find the axe swinging at them when governments need to claw back money.

It’s not remotely poignant - it’s a matter of opinion I’ve seen repeated many times on here, but which isn’t underpinned by evidence that I’ve ever seen. Had the railway been shut down it would then have been almost impossible to restart. I think many on here *wish* the railway had been closed down and the staff furloughed (not necessarily @Watershed).

I do object to this attitude of “we kept the railway running therefore you should be grateful” because it wasn’t in any way shape or form done to benefit the staff. Many of whom, especially of the lower paid workers for whom it didn’t represent a significant pay cut, would probably much rather have been furloughed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not exactly "railway grades", but how about the ORR? There will be surely no need for a regulator under GBR if the Government is taking the revenue risk. For the safety side something more like the old HMRI. ORR seems to have mission creep as they have stopped trams running at Crich because of an issue with traction poles and we remember the retrospective application of increased clearances on OHLE lines a few years ago which threatened huge increases in costs despite there being no evidence of a risk to safety. Putting my tin hat on now.

As long as there's a private element in the railway (eg freight, open access, or different ownership models like HS1 and Heathrow Express) there will be a need for an industry regulator.
Maybe not of the scale of the present ORR, but someone has to regulate a level playing field for access and charges.

 

[geoffk]

As long as there's a private element in the railway (eg freight, open access, or different ownership models like HS1 and Heathrow Express) there will be a need for an industry regulator.
Maybe not of the scale of the present ORR, but someone has to regulate a level playing field for access and charges.

I suppose I was making a general point that cuts in staffing should be aimed first at "backroom pen-pushers" rather than front-line staff on tracks, trains and stations. How many are employed on "delay attribution" for example?

 

[Goldfish62]

I suppose I was making a general point that cuts in staffing should be aimed first at "backroom pen-pushers" rather than front-line staff on tracks, trains and stations. How many are employed on "delay attribution" for example?

While of course remembering that these "backroom pen-pushers" are also real people with real families to feed and real mortgages to pay. I trust their union(s) will fight for them every bit as much as they're fighting for other railway staff.

 

[43066]

I suppose I was making a general point that cuts in staffing should be aimed first at "backroom pen-pushers" rather than front-line staff on tracks, trains and stations. How many are employed on "delay attribution" for example?

To be fair this point has been discussed before and the answer was “not very many”.

 

[geoffk]

While of course remembering that these "backroom pen-pushers" are also real people with real families to feed and real mortgages to pay. I trust their union(s) will fight for them every bit as much as they're fighting for other railway staff.

Yes of course. But it's clear that cuts will be falling somewhere.