Railway grades in danger?

[Mainsideman]

With the strikes upon us…
Which grades would be worried about their job security in regards to the cuts and why?

 

[Dr Hoo]

TOC Managing Directors would seem to be most immediately exposed to the changes envisaged by Great British Railways.

Is that the sort of thing we are talking about?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Booking office staff would be the main one. Booking offices are likely to mostly close progressively over the coming 10-20 years (though it might not require compulsory redundancy it might involve moving round a bit), and because they are a minority method of buying tickets a strike wouldn't really affect very much, so they have no power to strike to resist it unlike guards.

Still, DOO must be a risk to guards.

 

[Geeves]

Always makes me chuckle when the internet bookings and apps go down it's just a free for all as no one can check anything. Such is progress I suppose! I suspect eventually the railway will be run entirely by mobs of rentacops when everything is automatic. Manchester Metrolink on steroids comes to mind.

 

[DarloRich]

the answer is: All roles are at risk from the very top to the very bottom.

 

[Horizon22]

Certain station management might be - there's a lot of duplication there between TOCs and NR. Otherwise, evidently ticket offices.

 

[endofthetunnel]

The OPs question was I think related to the current strike vote. The roles affected by the “2500 job cuts” are NR operational grades - maintenance of signalling, telecom, Pway, and so on, who are being threatened with ‘modernisation’.

The change to GBR is comparatively far in the future and has not influenced the strike, but I would agree the reduction of duplicated roles between multiple TOCs and NR would seem sensible, and those who’s job is purely to communicate between the two.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes in relation to the strikes, it was focussed on a considerable maintenance reorganisation - involving some reductions - and other working arrangements in the operational world. This was certainly true for NR anyway.

 

[alxndr]

The OPs question was I think related to the current strike vote. The roles affected by the “2500 job cuts” are NR operational grades - maintenance of signalling, telecom, Pway, and so on, who are being threatened with ‘modernisation’.

Primarily operatives to begin with, but I very much expect them to come for technicians, teamleader, supervisors, and managers in the not too distant future.

 

[Dunnideer]

Primarily operatives to begin with, but I very much expect them to come for technicians, teamleader, supervisors, and managers in the not too distant future.

I think the next think they’ll try is to dramatically reduce headcount by making cross-discipline teams. You can see the start of this with what they’re proposing for operatives but in future I expect we’ll see the abolition of seperate S&T, P-Way, Off Track, Distirubtion maintenance/faulting teams and everyone will be expected to work on everything (with predictable disastrous results). The MOM grade will probably be savaged and incorporated into their cross-discipline teams too.

So a typical team might consist of someone who knows how to use a meter and has SMTH, someone who can work a shovel and knows the track standards, another who has a live line tester and can put up earths and use the insulated poles, and an operating dogsbody who can do LXA, Points Operator etc.. You’ll end up with four or five man teams but in vastly reduced numbers compared with the maintenance organisation we have now.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

But that makes sense where access to trackside kit is restricted by the safety rules, why not have a team that can do as much of the mtce as possible whilst having a single access opportunity?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Will GBR go down the same route as Railtrack and use contractors for PW and S&T work in the hope of saving money?

 

[TravelDream]

Booking office staff would be the main one. Booking offices are likely to mostly close progressively over the coming 10-20 years (though it might not require compulsory redundancy it might involve moving round a bit), and because they are a minority method of buying tickets a strike wouldn't really affect very much, so they have no power to strike to resist it unlike guards.

This.
I wonder how many non DfT 'Category A' stations will have booking offices in the next decade or two. Very few I think outside of a few strategic locations like airports.

We still don't know what GB Railways means, but there will likely be a move to reduce duplication. Especially in management level roles.

 

[SynthD]

What portion of RMTs number of job cuts are actual job losses? They do include waiting for retirement/etc typically.

 

[Bald Rick]

All jobs. The threat to the railway is VERY real. It is simply unaffordable at present. Government has made that clear.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

All jobs. The threat to the railway is VERY real. It is simply unaffordable at present. Government has made that clear.

Is it me, or I feel like this is hyperbole considering HS2 is under construction, Crossrail has just opened and the commitment to the Integrated Rail Plan.

Its pretty clear the railways aren't going to be shut down entirely.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

All jobs. The threat to the railway is VERY real. It is simply unaffordable at present. Government has made that clear.

Yes indeed.

 

[Watershed]

Is it me, or I feel like this is hyperbole considering HS2 is under construction, Crossrail has just opened and the commitment to the Integrated Rail Plan.

Its pretty clear the railways aren't going to be shut down entirely.

These are all capex in projects that have been assessed as having a significant net benefit to the economy and the taxpayer. Quite different from trying to minimise opex on a railway whose value to taxpayers is questionable in parts.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

These are all capex in projects that have been assessed as having a significant net benefit to the economy and the taxpayer. Quite different from trying to minimise opex on a railway whose value to taxpayers is questionable in parts.

Yes, but its pretty clear the entire railway isn't going to shut down.

I think there really are a number of people who are being extremely pessimistic/overreacting.

Honestly, I would say that this forum is probably the most negative and pessimistic place I've been on the internet in recent times, which saying something.

 

[Starmill]

Is it me, or I feel like this is hyperbole considering HS2 is under construction, Crossrail has just opened and the commitment to the Integrated Rail Plan.

Its pretty clear the railways aren't going to be shut down entirely.

The post you're quoting states that all roles should be considered to be at risk. It doesn't state that the railway is going to be wholesale closed!

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it me, or I feel like this is hyperbole considering HS2 is under construction, Crossrail has just opened and the commitment to the Integrated Rail Plan.

Its pretty clear the railways aren't going to be shut down entirely.

I didn’t say the whole railway would be shut down.

But I think, in fact I know, that parts of it are at risk. And therefore all types of jobs are at risk.

And that includes mine. In 3 decades of railway career I have never been worried about my job. I am now. Very.

 

[alxndr]

I think the next think they’ll try is to dramatically reduce headcount by making cross-discipline teams. You can see the start of this with what they’re proposing for operatives but in future I expect we’ll see the abolition of seperate S&T, P-Way, Off Track, Distirubtion maintenance/faulting teams and everyone will be expected to work on everything (with predictable disastrous results). The MOM grade will probably be savaged and incorporated into their cross-discipline teams too.

So a typical team might consist of someone who knows how to use a meter and has SMTH, someone who can work a shovel and knows the track standards, another who has a live line tester and can put up earths and use the insulated poles, and an operating dogsbody who can do LXA, Points Operator etc.. You’ll end up with four or five man teams but in vastly reduced numbers compared with the maintenance organisation we have now.

I think it's what they ultimately want as well, but I can't see it working at all.

Looking at it just from an S&T perspective, SMTH rules would cause a major problem in such a multidisciplinary team. To change any piece of equipment which requires more than basic installation (securing wires or bolts) both the tester and the installer needs to be competent in the equipment. It's not permitted for the tester to make any adjustments or carry out any set up as that breaches the independent testing requirements. This already causes problems where there aren't two people suitably qualified on one team. With a multidisciplinary team that means two people per team will need a significant amount of S&T training, on top of any training they need to do other things.

It's already considered impossible by most to learn everything there is to know about S&T. There's simply too much. I can't imagine trying to learn all of it as well as learning enough to be passable on other departments assets as well. Plus the more variation in your work the less frequently you're likely to do each individual thing, leading to skill fade and difficulty keeping up the competence.

Related to skill fade, if you're doing bits and pieces of everything you're less likely to gather a detailed history of all your assets. That's not something that can be quantified, and they'll never consider, but it's invaluable. I recently relocated, and while I'm doing alright up here, I'm a far weaker teamleader here than I was at my previous depot because I don't know everything like the back of my hand yet.

I also worry about progression in a multidisciplinary model. As it stands, you work your way up through the grades, having some formal training, but learning a lot through working under instruction. It's like how they say you only really learn to drive after you've passed your test; nothing can truly replace doing something in the real world (obviously under adequate supervision on the railway). In a multidisciplinary team how does someone get to be the "SMTH/S&T/meter bod"?

I think some reasonable cross disciplinary working could work (e.g. train pway and welders to perform FPL tests and only call on the S&T to adjust if it fails, or share straightforward, low level veg clearance out between the disciplines with off track only attending the big jobs), but still keep to discipline specific gangs.

More PCs (Protection Controllers) could be utilised as well to share blockages where appropriate. That would still bring the benefits of making the most use of track access time, especially if inspections were aligned between disciplines as much as possible. Improve access points and walking routes too so that you're not needing to take blocks to get to the site of work, thereby stopping someone else having that block or having losing hours waiting for access and improving safety. That would require some investment though, and the money is seemingly not there.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I wonder how many non DfT 'Category A' stations will have booking offices in the next decade or two. Very few I think outside of a few strategic locations like airports.

Many countries in Western Europe manage perfectly well with such a small number or ticket offices this seems a very pragmatic way to reduce costs.

 

[43066]

But I think, in fact I know, that parts of it are at risk. And therefore all types of jobs are at risk.

Which parts of it, out of interest (to the extent you’re able to say)?

I have to say I’ve never felt *more* confident in my job security as a driver than I do now, after seeing how thin on the ground we are these days. We regularly receive emails begging for overtime and passenger numbers on the trains I work, and those I commute on, are increasingly healthy.

Although I’m conscious that picture isn’t necessarily replicated elsewhere - smaller ticket offices being an obvious example - I increasingly think much of the doom and gloom reported on this forum is misplaced.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which parts of it, out of interest (to the extent you’re able to say)?

I’m not.

 

[bramling]

All jobs. The threat to the railway is VERY real. It is simply unaffordable at present. Government has made that clear.

Hard for a government to claim anything is unaffordable when they’ve just today spent £10bn (the amount not covered by the “windfall tax”) on subsidising peoples energy bills.

Of course, whether they *want* to afford it is another matter.

 

[DNCharingX]

I am not in the railway industry (yet), but the past few days have been giving me the impression that it's not a good time to be joining the railway.

Hearing about job cuts, pay disputes, strikes, and so on, really does something to those rose-tinted glasses. Maybe that's for the better.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Has anyone seen any details of the planned re org yet, not that it effects me as I was made redundant last year?

 

[43066]

Hard for a government to claim anything is unaffordable when they’ve just today spent £10bn (the amount not covered by the “windfall tax”) on subsidising peoples energy bills.

Of course, whether they *want* to afford it is another matter.

Indeed.

I honestly can’t foresee a “Thatcher moment”, despite the current IR situation. The amounts of money involved with the railway simply aren’t big enough, relative to the potential disruption caused, especially with the current “get back to the office” messaging.

 

[bramling]

Indeed.

I honestly can’t foresee a “Thatcher moment”, despite the current IR situation. The amounts of money involved with the railway simply aren’t big enough, relative to the potential disruption caused, especially with the current “get back to the office” messaging.

No and I think Johnson’s own position is still sufficiently precarious that starting battles on new flanks - which in this case will deliver poor publicity one way or other - isn’t in his or his government’s interest.

Sunak is meanwhile too busy writing out proverbial cheques on the “Bank of U.K. Taxpayer” credit card account.