Railcards users to face additional checks when buying tickets

[styles]

I find it strange that we had a thread not long ago where people were suggesting pretty much exactly what is proposed, with the one issue raised as being the issue of purchase a long way in advance*, and now the railway is proposing to actually do pretty much exactly what was suggested on here people are now up in arms about it as some kind of overreach or surveillance?

Dunno, I have the same objections I've had when this has popped up in other threads before!

The issue I find with buying the Railcard post-dated in order to secure an Advance fare is the logistics of changing the Railcard start date if you later decide to buy another Advance on an earlier date.

Let's say today is 18th March, and I buy an Advance with post-dated Railcard for 1st June. That all seems sensible enough. Now let's say my friend asks if I want to meet up on 1st April, is this system going to be able to change the 1st June start date of my Railcard to 1st April for this new ticket?

Then we think ok that's not too difficult to program, tickets being sold 12 weeks in advance in most cases. But what about say the Caledonian Sleeper service, which can be booked a whole year in advance? If I book a ticket with a new Railcard to travel in March 2027 then book this 1st April trip, by the time my CS trip comes around I'm going to have days left on my Railcard, which technically isn't a problem but may trip some people up. What then if, in a month's time, I change my CS booking to be April 2027, because they have fee-free amendments? Presumably the booking software is going to need to be reprogrammed to account for Railcard expiry dates when amending bookings as well as when making and paying for the initial booking.

None of it is technically difficult but I think, like most things to do with Railcards, it just adds an unnecessary barrier.

I still advocate for ditching most Railcards entirely, but keeping the discount, so to get the 16-25 discount you should show your ID which shows yours 16-25 for example.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Realistically all this will mean for TVMs is that you will have to type in photocard number, same as in Ireland currently. It quite likely already contains a check-digit to validate you didn't just enter a random number, but can't actually check whether the Railcard is valid. Honestly this makes sense for online platforms, but not for TVMs since you already have to select the Railcard each time all it will do is needlessly lengthen the process. At ticket offices and on board I'd really hope that visual checks would be enough otherwise it would probably end up revenue negative since guard’s will end spending their whole time typing in Railcard numbers..

This brings a couple of thoughts to mind:
- accepting that what we see here may not accurately reflect what happens in the real world, how often do we see reports of people applying the wromg railcard at a TVM? I think a contributor told us this happened upthread, but otherwise posters seem to run into trouble buying tickets on their phones.
- and how long are TVMs going to be around for, anyhow? My feeling is that there's a quite rapid move to buying online becoming the norm. If I am right on that, then we much more need to worry about getting the process right on phones.

 

[styles]

- and how long are TVMs going to be around for, anyhow? My feeling is that there's a quite rapid move to buying online becoming the norm. If I am right on that, then we much more need to worry about getting the process right on phones.

Presumably for as long as we want to issue penalties for not buying a ticket before boarding. Unless we are happy to mandate people buy a ticket on their phone before boarding, but I suspect, quite rightly, this would face some serious pushback.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree the complete portfolio of different rail cards needs to be scrapped, its a right dogs breakfast of confusion and in certain age groups discrimination.

Just replace it with 1 single Railcard ...

1 card per person that crucially anyone and everyone can buy, if they wish, and it gives 1/3 off the fare being purchased.

Indeed. Something most sensible Western countries. But no as a country, we're "special" so we have to have an over-commercialised system to fleece as much money out of passengers that the DfT/Treasury can get away with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2026 ==

Reality is could probably scrap all railcards, cut 25-30% off all fares, to nearly same as railcard price and would be revenue neutral

That wouldn't work unfortunately. The base line fare would just rise more quickly to what it would have been, anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2026 ==

I still advocate for ditching most Railcards entirely, but keeping the discount, so to get the 16-25 discount you should show your ID which shows yours 16-25 for example.

That's the worst possible solution as you lose any benefit of generating more business from the sunk cost. Plus you lose revenue from sale of the card itself and it precludes the possibility of any BahnCard type system in future.

Plus it would just add insult to injury for those of us discriminated against by not being eligible for a discount. The disparity would be even greater.

 

[styles]

That's the worst possible solution as you lose any benefit of generating more business from the sunk cost. Plus you lose revenue from sale of the card itself and it precludes the possibility of any BahnCard type system in future.

Conversely you generate more business from not having an adversarial fares and discounts system. You also save money on the administration of the Railcards scheme, and don't have passengers penalised for Railcards being a couple of days out of date or not downloaded to a phone etc.

 

[TUC]

Realistically all this will mean for TVMs is that you will have to type in photocard number, .

That will be potentially discriminatory for those with dyslexia or visual impairmen.

 

[styles]

That will be potentially discriminatory for those with dyslexia or visual impairmen.

Even accessibility issues aside, it'll just cause large queues at some stations, especially as people fumble around trying to find the Railcard number on their phone etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Conversely you generate more business from not having an adversarial fares and discounts system. You also save money on the administration of the Railcards scheme, and don't have passengers penalised for Railcards being a couple of days out of date or not downloaded to a phone etc.

The increased disparity between those able to buy a railcard and those not, would be unacceptable.

For starters, revenue would be lost from those who would have previously bought a railcard - guess who will have to cough up the difference.

Then you have those who wouldn't have bought a railcard, but who now have a free discount, another revenue loss - guess who will have to cough up the difference.

Then there's no incentive to take advantage of a sunk cost, so no new business. Another revenue loss - guess who will have to cough up the difference.

Such a proposal would make a bad situation worse.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Even accessibility issues aside, it'll just cause large queues at some stations, especially as people fumble around trying to find the Railcard number on their phone etc.

Although, as I commented above, booking tickets by phone seems to be becoming the norm. Passengers who have bought on phone won't be delayed by a slow process on ticket machines.

 

[styles]

The increased disparity between those able to buy a railcard and those not, would be increased unacceptably.

There would be no need to buy a Railcard, so the disparity would be zero.

For starters, revenue would be lost from those who would have previously bought a railcard - guess who will have to cough up the difference.

I expect the cost of administering the Railcard system is very high. Not just directly in issuing Railcards, the mobile app, etc but the indirect costs like the verification systems, programming in booking engines, complaints, etc.

The ORR has already said that the costs of administering the 16-17 Saver Railcard combined with the cost of dealing with incorrect usage may outweigh just changing the lower bound of adult tickets to 18, for one example.

Add on the potential for increased passenger demand from not having to get their head around Railcards and pay a capital outlay for one or two journeys which might not pay off the Railcard etc. Take for a simple example a couple looking at trains from Edinburgh to London. In fuel in my car that would cost £130 in today's prices. If they don't know about the Two Together Railcard, as many occasional travellers don't, and their fares come up at £200, driving is very tempting - the money saved is a night out at a West End show. Now consider that their fares show up as £135. That suddenly is a lot more tempting.

Then you have those who wouldn't have bought a railcard, but who now have a free discount, another revenue loss - guess who will have to cough up the difference.

As above.

Then there's no incentive to take advantage of a sunk cost, so no new business. Another revenue loss - guess who will have to cough up the difference.

As above. New business to be made from people not put off by it all etc.

Such a proposal would make a bad situation worse.

I really don't think so.

 

[ChilliSauce]

… will they all include friends, family, children, accompanying helpers?
… will they all have a minimum fare?
… will they all have peak restrictions?

1 Rail Card per person .. nice and simple ...

Minimum Fare (why should their be?) and Peak Restrictions is in the detail ...

Talking of minimum Fare ...I have just used my 50% "rail card" if you can call it that ..to buy a fare from Braclev to Braclev (Gr) for about 46p ..

 

[yorksrob]

There would be no need to buy a Railcard, so the disparity would be zero.

Yes there would be - between those who don't have access to a railcard and are forced to pay full fare.

I really don't think it's acceptable that those who are already forced to pay full fare should be forced to pay a greater proportion.

 

[styles]

Yes there would be - between those who don't have access to a railcard and are forced to pay full fare.

Exactly as it is now.

I really don't think it's acceptable that those who are already forced to pay full fare should be forced to pay a greater proportion.

They wouldn't. The discounts would remain the same.

 

[35B]

Yes there would be - between those who don't have access to a railcard and are forced to pay full fare.

I really don't think it's acceptable that those who are already forced to pay full fare should be forced to pay a greater proportion.

I’m with you on the value of selling railcards - people value what they have to work for much more than a bare entitlement, which will translate into more use of that railcard.

I’m agnostic about whether there should be a general railcard, available to all and without any eligibility conditions. But, as an able-bodied non student between 31 and 60 who lives outside the former NetworkSE area, I am not discriminated against by not getting those discounts. The railcard is a concessionary discount that some people are eligible for - and so much the better for them.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly as it is now.

Which is already deeply unsatisfactory.

They wouldn't. The discounts would remain the same.

When someone buys a railcard, you're getting them to commit to make back more than the sunk cost of the railcard than they've invested. That is how business is grown.

You can go the way of just giving the discount away - might drum up a bit of extra business, but enough to off set the cost of the discount ? Maybe - maybe not, but if that were the case, you might as well do it for everyone.

I prefer the idea of a national railcard because you can still charge full fare for:

- peak hour commuters, as the peak requires more resources.
- tourists, they're on holiday.
- rich people - who are wealthy enough not to be concerned by rail fares.

I believe that this is the logic behind the Swiss system.

 

[Sonic1234]

I’m with you on the value of selling railcards - people value what they have to work for much more than a bare entitlement, which will translate into more use of that railcard.

It also provides a feel good factor when they see how much they "saved", even if they wouldn't have travelled at full price.

It's like Tesco Clubcard Prices. Everyone pays the Clubcard price, even those excluded from the scheme e.g. under 18s find workarounds, but it builds loyalty and feels rewarding when you see how much you saved on the till.

If a National Railcard is ever introduced (Ha!), this is an argument for having it as a card rather than a general discount, and if it's a £35 card everyone will have one, except for international tourists and the "I buy a £5 day return into town when the car is in for the MOT once a year" customer. The assumption would be that you have the national railcard.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m with you on the value of selling railcards - people value what they have to work for much more than a bare entitlement, which will translate into more use of that railcard.

I’m agnostic about whether there should be a general railcard, available to all and without any eligibility conditions. But, as an able-bodied non student between 31 and 60 who lives outside the former NetworkSE area, I am not discriminated against by not getting those discounts. The railcard is a concessionary discount that some people are eligible for - and so much the better for them.

Similarly, I don't object to those who already have the discount having the discount. In fact, in a national railcard scenario, I would give those a discount on the railcard itself. However, I don't believe that there is a justification for increasing that disparity for full fare payers.

However, the commercial benefit of railcards that you've outlined, work across the board.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2026 ==

It also provides a feel good factor when they see how much they "saved", even if they wouldn't have travelled at full price.

It's like Tesco Clubcard Prices. Everyone pays the Clubcard price, even those excluded from the scheme e.g. under 18s find workarounds, but it builds loyalty and feels rewarding when you see how much you saved on the till.

If a National Railcard is ever introduced (Ha!), this is an argument for having it as a card rather than a general discount, and if it's a £35 card everyone will have one, except for international tourists and the "I buy a £5 day return into town when the car is in for the MOT once a year" customer. The assumption would be that you have the national railcard.

I'd actually have the cost of it for those who aren't already eligible, a bit more substantial - maybe £150. That way they would have to think about making the money back.

 

[styles]

Which is already deeply unsatisfactory.



When someone buys a railcard, you're getting them to commit to make back more than the sunk cost of the railcard than they've invested. That is how business is grown.

You can go the way of just giving the discount away - might drum up a bit of extra business, but enough to off set the cost of the discount ? Maybe - maybe not, but if that were the case, you might as well do it for everyone.

I don't think promoting the idea of not needing to apply in advance of a discount is remotely the same as giving everybody a discount. There will still be criteria, like being aged 16-30 for example, so it will still be targetted.

I prefer the idea of a national railcard because you can still charge full fare for:

- peak hour commuters, as the peak requires more resources.

Some railcards already have peak restrictions, no need for that to change.

- tourists, they're on holiday.

You could do this already with a checkbox for UK citizen or not; though worth noting the current system of Railcards is already open to tourists anyway so again, no need for change per se.

- rich people - who are wealthy enough not to be concerned by rail fares.

I'm not sure means-testing rail fares is desirable nor do I think the cost of administering such a means-testing system (with or without an actual card) would generate a surplus. For starters the UK doesn't even track wealth, only income, so we wouldn't be taxing the wealthy more, many of whom actually pay low levels of income tax. A lot of means-testing schemes don't save the money it costs to administer. It may do for rail, but I wouldn't be so sure. If we were to adopt it though, yes we'd need an individual card for everybody (or everybody who wants a non-wealth discount) for that.

 

[Snow1964]

Although, as I commented above, booking tickets by phone seems to be becoming the norm. Passengers who have bought on phone won't be delayed by a slow process on ticket machines.

And those that buy on phones tend to be regular users.

The railway should be encouraging occasional users, and that doesn't mean jumping through hoops to get a railcard, and make it difficult to try and buy cheapest (even if split) ticket at station. TVMs don't sell railcards. They don't sell split tickets. Ticket office hours are sparse on non existent at many of the networks 2500 stations.

Thats why as majority of off peak fares are with railcards, should dump the faff of railcards, and just price the off peak close to railcard price. It's not as if people with railcards suddenly travel more, they do it to save money, same reason why I have a Tesco club card, not because it makes me use Tesco more. It just saves money when happen to be using it anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And those that buy on phones tend to be regular users.

The railway should be encouraging occasional users, and that doesn't mean jumping through hoops to get a railcard, and make it difficult to try and buy cheapest (even if split) ticket at station. TVMs don't sell railcards. They don't sell split tickets. Ticket office hours are sparse on non existent at many of the networks 2500 stations.

Thats why as majority of off peak fares are with railcards, should dump the faff of railcards, and just price the off peak close to railcard price. It's not as if people with railcards suddenly travel more, they do it to save money, same reason why I have a Tesco club card, not because it makes me use Tesco more. It just saves money when happen to be using it anyway.

Increasingly occasional users will download the Trainline app or use the Trainline website on their PC (and yes, it will be Trainline, not anything else). They won't go to a booking office.

And again - booking offices are still told to check Railcard validity when purchasing discounted tickets. That has never gone away. So those occasional users who do use booking offices already have this applied.

 

[Starmill]

In short, yes. It has long been the policy overall but for practical reasons has not applied online until now.

This isn't true at all. Ticket offices will issue railcard discounted tickets beyond the horizon for renewal consistently with a conditions advised stamp.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't true at all. Ticket offices will issue railcard discounted tickets beyond the horizon for renewal consistently with a conditions advised stamp.

They may do that as a workaround*, but what they won't do is sell a Railcard discounted ticket without evidence of a Railcard held at the time of purchase. At least they are not supposed to, and that is confirmed upthread. Some might, but we all well know that booking offices are not always well known for applying the rules correctly at times, e.g. refusing valid tickets and not doing excesses correctly.

I'd have thought it likely that something similar would apply to these additional checks, rather than people being refused Advances at renewal time.

(Sorry, I misread the question I was replying to in the post you've replied to, I've edited it a bit to clarify).

* Does anyone know if they are also allowed to use that workaround where a Railcard isn't held because the passenger isn't eligible for it yet but will be by the time of the journey?

 

[Starmill]

They may do that as a workaround*, but what they won't do is sell a Railcard discounted ticket without evidence of a Railcard held at the time of purchase. At least they are not supposed to, and that is confirmed upthread. Some might, but we all well know that booking offices are not always well known for applying the rules correctly at times, e.g. refusing valid tickets and not doing excesses correctly.

I'd have thought it likely that something similar would apply to these additional checks, rather than people being refused Advances at renewal time.

(Sorry, I misread the question I was replying to in the post you've replied to, I've edited it a bit to clarify).

* Does anyone know if they are also allowed to use that workaround where a Railcard isn't held because the passenger isn't eligible for it yet but will be by the time of the journey?

They are very happy to do this. Say you're 59 and making bookings in advance using a Senior Railcard. It's totally normal...

 

[Haywain]

* Does anyone know if they are also allowed to use that workaround where a Railcard isn't held because the passenger isn't eligible for it yet but will be by the time of the journey?

Whilst it may well be done, there is nothing to say that it should be done, so it isn't "allowed".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2026 ==

Say you're 59 and making bookings in advance using a Senior Railcard. It's totally normal...

In my time working in ticket offices I never encountered such a request, so it's stretching things to say it's normal.

 

[island]

If they're actually going to be checking it against a database (even if not immediately) there's probably no need. If it's just "added friction" (i.e. a means of forcing people to look at said date and check it hasn't passed) then it's an odd omission.

You can call the API with a Railcard number and get back its railcard type, expiry date, and the cardholder names.

How does this work with station-issued Railcards, which have non-unique 5-digit numbers?

 

[The exile]

In short, yes. It has long been the policy overall but for practical reasons has not applied online until now.

Edit: looks like I misread the question - they will ask for a Railcard which must be held to purchase, but it might not be checked whether it needs renewal or not.

So in other words if I hold a railcard valid until April 30th I can be sold a discounted ticket with start date May 1st, but if I don’t already hold one, I can’t. If the railcard in question is a Senior one for which I don’t become eligible until May 1st that sounds to me that the only reason for my being treated less favourably is my age….

 

[MrJeeves]

How does this work with station-issued Railcards, which have non-unique 5-digit numbers?

Well you give it the 5-digit number and it comes back with a Railcard.

Is it the right Railcard? Dunno.

I don't think anyone really cared when that was pointed out, though.

 

[mmh]

For those who insisted this change would only be of concern to enthusiasts on here, and not something the general public would be bothered about - we already have our first new user sign up to ask about losing validity time when buying advance tickets in, err, advance.

Buying tickets / railcards for travel with Avanti

My friend and I are planning a return trip to London from Manchester along with my friend's 18-year old daughter. The plan is that I buy the three sets of tickets for us all on the Avanti website in order to make sure that we get seat reservations together. We currently don't have any...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CyrusWuff]

How does this work with station-issued Railcards, which have non-unique 5-digit numbers?

Logically it would also use the issuing location details to make a reasonably unique ID. (At least until the machine in question has issued 99,999 tickets and rolls back over to 00000 or 00001.)

This is the rail industry, however, so the cynic in me suggests that may not have been considered.

 

[snail]

If they're going to verify that the Railcard is valid before one can buy a discounted ticket, then there's no reason not to allow passengers to buy post-dated Railcards. In other words, you want to travel in 12 weeks' time, you want to buy an Advance now to lock in the price, so you buy a Railcard now that starts on the date of travel. The Railcard can be issued straight away. It will be accepted for ticket purchases for travel on or after its start date, but not for ticket purchases for travel before that date, so there's no chance of accidental or deliberate misuse before the start date and no difficulty in enforcing the rules. That would be both sensible and reasonable.

Making it so that, in the circumstances described above, you have to buy the Railcard now and waste almost the first quarter of its period of validity, would be wholly unreasonable, so that's what I would expect to see happen.

So what happens if you later decide to travel before the railcard start date? Can it be changed (for a fee?)? Do you buy another with the relevant start date, giving you a few weeks before the original start date and a few weeks after the new one expires when the original is still valid? I don't really get that it's so important to post date railcards for infrequent travel. If I buy one now for travel in May will I remember in May next year that I need another one? Much simpler - though fractionally more expensive - to have the validity at the point of sale, as happens with other discount-type schemes.