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Railcards users to face additional checks when buying tickets

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Bletchleyite

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No it doesn't. Passenger specific tickets can be found in numerous places in the developed world.

However you can only guarantee that people have appropriate Government ID to prove that they are the passenger named on the ticket in countries that have such a concept. The UK does not.

Yes, you can give out railway photo cards, but how is that an advantage over Railcards?
 
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Starmill

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I doubt I’d start to drive instead however. For most people I suspect mode used is just determined by convenience.
In my experience it's primarily determined by the cost to the employer, not the convenience of the person travelling. This is why so many meetings are now online only via Teams.
 

AlterEgo

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However you can only guarantee that people have appropriate Government ID to prove that they are the passenger named on the ticket in countries that have such a concept. The UK does not.
We have driving licences, passports, PASS ID cards, just off the top of my head.

Yes, you can give out railway photo cards, but how is that an advantage over Railcards?
It would be used by a minority of people who don't have ID but who also use digital subscription services.

The advantage is you only need to prove entitlement when you book, not when you travel, which eliminates all the lost validity arguments.
 

WesternLancer

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In my experience it's primarily determined by the cost to the employer, not the convenience of the person travelling. This is why so many meetings are now online only via Teams.
This is also true of course, hence the decline in in person work meetings when people are distributed around the country etc - but it does still happen to some extent
 

Krokodil

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Almost certainly. Now, if you are caught with an expired railcard, you have almost no excuse, and can more "legitimately" be pursued by way of civil or criminal means.
Indeed. If you've entered "123456" as the serial number and show up with no railcard then you're not going to be able to claim that it was a "mistake".

Of course not! It will be that you will have to upload your licence, MOT and insurance document before you book and pay in advance for, a time limited reserved slot on the road to drive from A-B - you won't be able to break your journey for longer than a 20 minute personal needs break too. ;). There will be season tickets for these slots, but no refunds if decision not to travel made on the day

But at least that will mean a level playing field across modes.

Funnily enough I can't see people at the DfT seeing it like this.
You can also get your fuel cheaper if you swap between pumps halfway through filling.

You'll get more than a penalty fare if you fill a diesel car with petrol though!

I would question precisely how many of the cases where someone has selected 16-17 Saver rather than 16-25 Railcard were genuine accidents rather than someone casually trying it on, to be honest. Children often do not consider consequences.
I can believe it more than I ever believe the "I haven't got it with me" when someone is asked for a JCP discount card. Unfortunately as they're handwritten the JCP card isn't in the scope of this scheme, it just covers the major ones.

The ORR report was explicit that the industry should consider aligning the child fare boundary to 18, to remove this cliff edge. Absent any announcement to that effect, and we can draw our own conclusions
I found that the introduction of the 16-17 card provided a handy transition from "half-fare with no proof required" to "third off with a card" by bringing in an intermediate stsge of "half-fare with card".

I was astonished when I saw a guard scan a Rail Staff Leisure Pass a few weeks ago. I guess it simply confirmed it was valid, but it wasn't my pass so I didn't feel it was appropriate to ask.
A TOC staff ID card?

I know of one person being caught using a card they should have handed in after leaving the company because a guard scanned it and it flagged up as withdrawn.
 

Bletchleyite

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We have driving licences, passports, PASS ID cards, just off the top of my head.

None of them are mandatory to carry or own. Are you saying people should not be able to travel by train/receive their entitled discounts unless they have optional photographic ID? Try getting that one past the Right.

You're clearly pro ID (pretty sure your posts have indicated that before?), but given how many people are anti, this is politically impossible.
 

Plagiomnium

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LNER at least sometimes allow purchase of Advance tickets more than the standard 12 weeks in advance - I've saved a bit of money that way, and they are rather notoriously one of the TOCs where booking in advance to save money is most necessary!

For the most part allowing purchase/renewal of post-dated railcards would seem to solve the problems of requiring verification. But I wonder how a system like that would deal with the situation I was recently in, where I bought railcard-discounted tickets months in advance for a planned holiday without yet having the railcard, then bought the railcard a few weeks later in order to book tickets for a spur-of-the-moment day trip. If I'd already bought a railcard post-dated to the start of my holiday I presumably couldn't have done that. But perhaps that is enough of an edge case to be reasonably ignored. :)
 

35B

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I found that the introduction of the 16-17 card provided a handy transition from "half-fare with no proof required" to "third off with a card" by bringing in an intermediate stsge of "half-fare with card".
Indeed. But as the government is claiming that report in justification, it's worth looking at how the two relate - and they don't.
 

jon0844

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It's hilarious that the rail industry thinks it's worthwhile issuing a press release to announce an outbreak of common sense! Proving entitlement to a discount in order to claim it?? What will they think of next.

Can we set up a single thread on here to keep all the inevitable corner case whinging in one place?!!

It might be a smart way to warn people that checks are being (going to be) made, so even during the trial phase it might see more compliance elsewhere.
 

Starmill

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All this (potential) faff, and they're only claiming that it could save £20 million?

I fear we've a lot more of this to come - political grandstanding and dubious changes justified by trivial theoretical savings.
Given a Jobcentre Plus Discount and a whole host of other non-national discounts are scoped out of the database, presumably you'll be able to continue to buy all or those freely. The database is specifically for national railcards and 16-17 Savers. I'm not sure that there are savings to be had personally.

The way to make 'savings' is to, erm... actually check tickets?
 

snail

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Load of bumph advertising Trainline which is depressing.
True, for those in the know. But they are the retailer many passengers use when buying tickets so in that context a good example of how Delay Repay are working towards making claims simpler in the future.
 

AlterEgo

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None of them are mandatory to carry or own. Are you saying people should not be able to travel by train/receive their entitled discounts unless they have optional photographic ID?
There is no such thing as an entitled discount - Railcards are a commercial product which are basically a subscription. All that I am proposing is that, like nearly everything else in life, it is only relevant to prove entitlement when buying the ticket. So, if you want to get a third off, either subscribe online and use your membership number 675357821 to buy the ticket in your name MR A SMITH, and then just show ID, or if you don't want to do that or otherwise object on whatever grounds, get a rail photocard like everyone who has a season ticket needs to.

This means that if your railcard discount subscription expires tomorrow, it's fine to buy a ticket for three months ahead. There is no lost validity.

I know people will talk a load of nonsense about ehhhhhhh but I don't want to type my number in when I buy a ticket online, it's friction, but guess what? If I buy my shopping online or deliver stuff from Amazon or use Prime TV or collect frequent flier miles, it has to be entered anyway or otherwise signed in. It's pre-populated in most cases anyway. Now, if when the Amazon driver came to my door with my free same day delivery, they started asking me to prove I am the customer with the entitlement to that free service because of my subscription - THAT would be friction. There is MASSIVE FRICTION in the system already - people go to flipping court because of the deficiencies in it, or get pursued for unpaid fares, or get written up for PFs. Customers hate that.

Nah, sign in or use your number for your discount, not hard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

True, for those in the know. But they are the retailer many passengers use when buying tickets so in that context a good example of how Delay Repay are working towards making claims simpler in the future.
It's advertising and regulatory capture. It is actually really bad.
 

snail

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Gets muddled when you are paid on a time sheet for working hours if your employer accepts time to get to meetings or event the employer has requested you to attend is in work paid time. So if delayed coming back to base then employer is losing out, but doesn’t get the delay repay compensation as the employee currently gets it.

I can see HR teams seeing this as a way to prevent that scenario continuing.
It was made very clear in my employer's travel policy that any delay claims during working hours were to be processed by our travel provider on behalf of the employer. Out of hours compensation for delay could be claimed directly by me from the TOCs.
 

saismee

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Indeed. If you've entered "123456" as the serial number and show up with no railcard then you're not going to be able to claim that it was a "mistake".
Until someone memorises the serial of their 3-year railcard and punches it in on day 1,096 of travelling and is treated like an armed bank robber on the train for it.
 

WesternLancer

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It was made very clear in my employer's travel policy that any delay claims during working hours were to be processed by our travel provider on behalf of the employer. Out of hours compensation for delay could be claimed directly by me from the TOCs.
Thanks for sharing. clearly they had thought this through and implemented a clear approach in that case.
 

AlterEgo

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Until someone memorises the serial of their 3-year railcard and punches it in on day 1,096 of travelling and is treated like an armed bank robber on the train for it.
I'm a little surprised there won't - apparently - be a requirement to enter the expiry date.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm a little surprised there won't - apparently - be a requirement to enter the expiry date.

If they're actually going to be checking it against a database (even if not immediately) there's probably no need. If it's just "added friction" (i.e. a means of forcing people to look at said date and check it hasn't passed) then it's an odd omission.
 

TUC

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



They're not, but I'm sure under GBR they will be. Large IT projects take time, if rushed they are usually rubbish.
Why does it need GBR? The purchasing of railcards is already separate to TOCs.
 

redreni

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If they're going to verify that the Railcard is valid before one can buy a discounted ticket, then there's no reason not to allow passengers to buy post-dated Railcards. In other words, you want to travel in 12 weeks' time, you want to buy an Advance now to lock in the price, so you buy a Railcard now that starts on the date of travel. The Railcard can be issued straight away. It will be accepted for ticket purchases for travel on or after its start date, but not for ticket purchases for travel before that date, so there's no chance of accidental or deliberate misuse before the start date and no difficulty in enforcing the rules. That would be both sensible and reasonable.

Making it so that, in the circumstances described above, you have to buy the Railcard now and waste almost the first quarter of its period of validity, would be wholly unreasonable, so that's what I would expect to see happen.
 

MikeWM

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I've no idea how this will work at TVMs, but any of the options I can think of sound like a total nightmare. How will this work with a physical Gold Card, for example [1] - enter the photocard number?

[1] Yes, some of us still have these...
 

jfollows

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It’s just a political announcement, with little thought to the actual ramifications. Someone can claim a saving of £20m/year, today, even though the implementation will probably do far less than this. All the big problems are clear in this thread, but not to the people who want to claim the savings.
 

thejuggler

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LNER at least sometimes allow purchase of Advance tickets more than the standard 12 weeks in advance - I've saved a bit of money that way, and they are rather notoriously one of the TOCs where booking in advance to save money is most necessary!
Indeed. I bought some tickets for travel in mid June about 2 weeks ago.

I need to buy some for November and will do so when they are released, but this is likely to be after my railcard expires in July. As it is unlikely I will need a Railcard between June and November I intended buying tickets but holding off buying the railcard until just before travel, now I'll have to check the rules at the time.
 

redreni

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There is no such thing as an entitled discount - Railcards are a commercial product which are basically a subscription. All that I am proposing is that, like nearly everything else in life, it is only relevant to prove entitlement when buying the ticket. So, if you want to get a third off, either subscribe online and use your membership number 675357821 to buy the ticket in your name MR A SMITH, and then just show ID, or if you don't want to do that or otherwise object on whatever grounds, get a rail photocard like everyone who has a season ticket needs to.

This means that if your railcard discount subscription expires tomorrow, it's fine to buy a ticket for three months ahead. There is no lost validity.

I know people will talk a load of nonsense about ehhhhhhh but I don't want to type my number in when I buy a ticket online, it's friction, but guess what? If I buy my shopping online or deliver stuff from Amazon or use Prime TV or collect frequent flier miles, it has to be entered anyway or otherwise signed in. It's pre-populated in most cases anyway. Now, if when the Amazon driver came to my door with my free same day delivery, they started asking me to prove I am the customer with the entitlement to that free service because of my subscription - THAT would be friction. There is MASSIVE FRICTION in the system already - people go to flipping court because of the deficiencies in it, or get pursued for unpaid fares, or get written up for PFs. Customers hate that.

Nah, sign in or use your number for your discount, not hard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


It's advertising and regulatory capture. It is actually really bad.
I wouldn't be against switching to a system where the date of purchase rather than the date of travel matters for Railcard validity. It wouldn't eliminate the possibility that the Railcard check is passed at point of purchase but not at point of travel, though. It has to be the same person. Otherwise you'd get people travelling on Railcards that aren't theirs.

I've told friends to buy Network Railcard discounted tickets before when they don't have a Network Railcard, on the basis that they'd meet me on the train and we'd travel together. I split my tickets at the station where they got on, so we would have tickets covering the same journey and wouldn't fall foul of the requirement to travel together for the whole journey. Presumably I would have to buy all the tickets if we were to do a similar thing under the regime being contemplated?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It’s just a political announcement, with little thought to the actual ramifications. Someone can claim a saving of £20m/year, today, even though the implementation will probably do far less than this. All the big problems are clear in this thread, but not to the people who want to claim the savings.
They need to take account of the money they're currently able to extort in the form of settlements from the people they seem to be admitting (?) are in some cases being (reasonably) innocently tripped up by the current rules. If they lose that revenue...
 

redreni

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I suspect that could fall foul of a revenue block at their origin station anyway.
Good thing they only do revenue blocks about every third leap year, then. The only jeopardy there is they'd have to wait outside the station and we'd have to step back a train. It's a high frequency line, so that would have been no big deal.
 

MrJeeves

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Is there an existing database (consolidated or distributed) to verify railcard details against ? If so, how quickly are newly purchased railcards added to it ?
No. It’s been posted many times that there is no centrally accessible record.
There is a central railcard validation database.

It covers:

Railcard TypeDescription
2TRTwo Together Railcard
DIS/DICDisabled Persons Railcard
FAMFamily & Friends Railcard
NEWNetwork Railcard
SRNSenior Railcard
TST26-30 Railcard
TSU16-17 Saver
VETVeterans Railcard
YNG16-25 Railcard

All newly sold Railcards exist in this database. The primary issue is the poor recording of previously purchased paper Railcards from stations. I'm not sure when data for the system started being collected for these, but hopefully it was over 3 years ago! :p

You can call the API with a Railcard number, its railcard type, expiry date, and the cardholder names, and it will confirm the expiry date in a response if it's found to match with one in the database.

A separate endpoint exists to track changes to validity. You provide a timeframe and it will list all the Railcards which have been made invalid (not naturally expired) or have been made valid again during that timeframe. This might happen if a Railcard is "hotlisted".

The documentation is all public. It's not hard to find:


I think it's a shame it doesn't cover Jobcentre Plus Railcards, but I think it's understandable given how they are issued.
 
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rwblake

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In an age of technology I wish the default approach were to solve the problem closer to the root cause (by regularly checking tickets on trains!). The more technology involved, the more privacy is given up. There is a simple solution to all this! It feels fairer too - you don't have to prove you're innocent (prove you have a railcard etc).
 
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