Rail centres that have developed well in recent times

[O L Leigh]

But hardly any longer distance Anglia trains used to stop at Stratford. Now most do. And how about the West Anglia route? And two DLR routes (yes one used to go to North Woolwich, but as DLR is infinitely more useful).

You're comparing the services now to how it was when...? I would suggest only about 5 minutes ago.

The WA services are a reinstatement of the link that had previously existed under BR. The other DLR route also uses former BR trackbeds to get it down into Docklands. And there always used to be Norwich services stopping at Stratford from time to time. None of these thing make up for all the many important things that Stratford has lost since it's heyday. Stratford is now merely a station.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

There's even the remains of an intermediate station between Stratford and Tottenham Hale...

 

[cle]

You're comparing the services now to how it was when...? I would suggest only about 5 minutes ago.

The WA services are a reinstatement of the link that had previously existed under BR. The other DLR route also uses former BR trackbeds to get it down into Docklands. And there always used to be Norwich services stopping at Stratford from time to time. None of these thing make up for all the many important things that Stratford has lost since it's heyday. Stratford is now merely a station.

O L Leigh

We will have to agree to disagree because you're interpreting this in a different way.

I would say today is its heyday. Not for a railwayman perhaps, or a freight/stock/depot enthusiast, but for passengers and as 'merely a station' it is the biggest and busiest in its history. Clear cut.

And re: Norwich services - always or from time to time? Make your mind up son. The actual answer is very rarely. Even Ipswich and Colchester services didn't make many stops. The only ones which did were the Clacton/Braintree semi-fasts which were the only fasts for Romford too.

 

[O L Leigh]

According to your own very narrow interpretation, which I feel you have taken simply to take a contrary view. I believe my views are in line with what the OP intended as we are talking about "rail centres" not "rail stations" and, as such, I really do not believe that Stratford deserves a place on this list.

Many stations have more trains calling than at any time in their history and, as a percentage of the traffic passing through, shows a much larger increase than Stratford. You should also be aware that a lot of the recent expansion work carried out leading up to the Olympics was simply a reinstatement of facilities that were already there.

O L Leigh

 

[cle]

I don't think I am being contrary with Stratford. And nor have I created my interpretation just to disagree with you. A tad self-important!

I offered my suggestions without anticipating any of this back and forth...

If you re-read the OP's post, you'll actually see that he is the first person to suggest Stratford! So it's not anything of my insistence/creation. And as he is the piper calling the tune, it's obviously in line with his perception of answers to his canvassed question...

Cheers.

 

[Bunting14]

What about West Ham. Before 1979 even the district line station closed earlier in the evenings then other stations. Now it has three tube lines, the C2C line and the DLR.

 

[Waverley125]

re: Watford Junction, could well be reversed with the Metropolitan line & Bakerloo line extensions into the station. With the potential to then run the Overground service to Stratford via Camden Town & the NLL, it could once again become very important.

 

[RichmondCommu]

We will have to agree to disagree because you're interpreting this in a different way.

I would say today is its heyday. Not for a railwayman perhaps, or a freight/stock/depot enthusiast, but for passengers and as 'merely a station' it is the biggest and busiest in its history. Clear cut.

In that case perhaps this thread should be given the title "Stations That Are Busier Than They Used To Be" but that of course is down to the author!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Crewe - no longer as important a hub due to more .
Luton/Bedford - similar problem, now served by Corby mainly and not the big boys. Stevenage seems to fare better, as an equivalent scenario.

In terms of Crewe you might also wish to mention the huge decline of the railway workshops....

I'm not really sure that you could describe Luton and Bedford as being railway centres, in particular Luton.

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't think I am being contrary with Stratford. And nor have I created my interpretation just to disagree with you. A tad self-important!

I offered my suggestions without anticipating any of this back and forth...

No, I think you made your suggestions without being aware of Stratford's history. Having made you aware of the history you have attempted to reframe the question to suit your answer.

If you re-read the OP's post, you'll actually see that he is the first person to suggest Stratford! So it's not anything of my insistence/creation. And as he is the piper calling the tune, it's obviously in line with his perception of answers to his canvassed question...

But if you read the OP's subsequent posts you will see that he was also unaware of Stratford's historic importance.

However, since you raise the point, I would like to say at this time that the OP seems to have underplayed Stratford's situation, even in the 1990s, in order to illustrate his original post. He suggests that Stratford has gone from relative backwater to the "the Clapham Junction of the North and East of London". This simply isn't true. Stratford's importance as a junction and interchange between services has neither increased nor decreased over the years. The station may now have more platforms and certain services may call there with greater frequency, but it's position and importance on the network has remained the same throughout, just like other important junctions and interchanges such as Crewe, York and Bristol.

O L Leigh

 

[wbbminerals]

I hope the Mods don't think that this is against the rules, but I'd like to say something positive about Wakefield Kirkgate (which is probably against the rules on here, given how much slagging off it gets).

In recent years its service to Leeds trebled due to the introduction of non-stop services (much faster than the "via Castleford" services), new links to London/ Doncaster/ Nottingham/ Bradford, its seen it get First Class trains again - I'm probably going against the grain here in praising something about the place though!

Here here, there are also DBS staff now based there as well as a Network Rail depot.

 

[cle]

No, I think you made your suggestions without being aware of Stratford's history. Having made you aware of the history you have attempted to reframe the question to suit your answer.



But if you read the OP's subsequent posts you will see that he was also unaware of Stratford's historic importance.

However, since you raise the point, I would like to say at this time that the OP seems to have underplayed Stratford's situation, even in the 1990s, in order to illustrate his original post. He suggests that Stratford has gone from relative backwater to the "the Clapham Junction of the North and East of London". This simply isn't true. Stratford's importance as a junction and interchange between services has neither increased nor decreased over the years. The station may now have more platforms and certain services may call there with greater frequency, but it's position and importance on the network has remained the same throughout, just like other important junctions and interchanges such as Crewe, York and Bristol.

O L Leigh

I don't think you can say Crewe's importance has remained the same:

It was a gateway to Chester and North Wales - still is on weekends, but with hourly trains to Chester and more frequent ones to Bangor/Holyhead, there is less need to change there.
London - Glasgow trains and London - Liverpool trains don't stop as a matter of course.
XC trains do not run beyond Birmingham southbound.
Wilmslow has an hourly stop on Manc - London and Manc - Cardiff/West Wales services, which wasn't always the case. Again, lessened need to change.

And you didn't make me aware of anything at all. Your post on Stratford was riddled with errors in regards to passenger services:
- Norwich and Ipswich trains rarely called, and many others too.
- West Anglia was disused.
- North Woolwich was 2tph and quiet as the grave! Especially without West Ham's JLE and c2c connections! And London City Airport didn't exist! Nor Canary Wharf!
- There is a new tube line, in addition to two DLR routes and new platforms on the mainline.

You are completely wrong and living in the past, sirrah. Don't make the mistake of thinking the old NLL, because it's 'heavy rail' carries more weight than a higher patronised and frequency DLR. It was a white elephant.

Both myself and the OP seem to be on the same hymn sheet. You are now presumptuous enough to proclaim the OP is going back on himself also, as well as me. So everyone is scrambling to correct themselves based on your pearls of wisdom? Hah, your ego is astounding and only second to the level of inaccuracy in your posts and logic.

I'll throw you a bone: Frequency of service = patronage = importance. Unused workshops, chords, turntables and sidings do not, in this case.

Please start your own freight and works related topic if desired. But don't jump in, try to change the course and based on that cherry-picked definition, have the gall to proclaim even the OP wrong! Bonkers.

 

[O L Leigh]

Sorry Cle, but the ego problem is yours alone.

I haven't said that the OP was wrong, simply unaware. It was the OP himself who said that he was unaware of Stratford's historic importance. You and others may be talking about stations that have developed, both in terms of size and service frequency, but the thread title says "Rail Centres" which surely includes more than just passenger facilities. I'll let the Mods decide if it makes you happy, but I don't believe my posts have been off-topic.

I'm not going to correct the factual inaccuracies in your own attempts to correct me. I don't see a problem in framing the question within a wider historical context. After all, how can you judge whether somewhere has developed or declined over time. By all means put Stratford on your own list if it makes you happy, but I still disagree. Call it nostalgia if you will, but I know just how much has been lost from Stratford over the years. While I will agree that passenger services have improved recently, taking the longer view Stratford is still in net decline and will never regain the position it once held. Getting hung up on passenger train frequencies tells barely half the story.

So go ahead and call me names because I do happen to understand your point. We could talk about it if you like, or you could throw your toys out the pram. Bonkers...? Well, that's up to you to decide. I have simply made a case against Stratford's inclusion.

O L Leigh

 

[DarloRich]

@cle what on earth are you talking about?

Stratford has gone from having a major depot, a major heavy overhaul and maintenance centre, before that a locomotive, wagon and coaching stock construction facility, numerous large marshalling yards and a station to...................... a station. (oh and a shopping centre!) It may have more frequent, and different, services but it has lost the majority of what made it a "railway centre"

For the purposes of illustration we shall start with Stratford MPD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratford_TMD

before moving to Stratford works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratford_Works

and then turning to the temple Mills yard/workshops area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mills#Railways

via the London International Freight Terminal (LIFT) and the Stratford Feightliner Terminal to the station

 

[O L Leigh]

Cle, you are also mistaking more recent connections as being entirely "new".

The Jubilee Line platforms were already there and the services were operated by heavy rail down towards North Woolwich via Canning Town. Likewise, the existing DLR connection uses existing platforms and follows a former heavy rail alignment through Devons Road towards Poplar. Indeed, Stratford station has a number platforms that have fallen out of use.

These Dockland services certainly were in decline since WW2 because of the decline in the London Docks themselves. However these services, together with all the freight coming in and out of the docks via Bow and Stratford Central Junctions, were pre-existing. It's only the recent rebirth of the area as a financial centre together with the creation of London City Airport that has seen these services reinstated as part of the DLR and Tube networks. So to claim that they are entirely "new" is somewhat disingenuous. As I have said previously, Stratford's importance as an interchange for services heading in different directions is the same now as it was before. That the frequencies have changed simply reflects the change in the importance of the destinations served from Stratford, not of Stratford itself.

There really is nothing new under the sun.

O L Leigh

 

[cle]

OP:

But one cannot deny that its importance has grown substantially in the last 20 years, even if it isn't the mass TMD it once was. From the perspective of the thread title at least, it is definitely suitable for this thread - it has developed well in recent times.

So there you go. I'm merely agreeing with him.

Patronage - taking the measurements for 2007/2007-8 and 2011/2011-12 (LUL is flat calendar years) then in 2007 the total patronage was 44.282 million. In 2011 (no Olympics or Westfield) - it was 72.664.

You can hardly call that decline, and that doesn't include interchange which will also be higher than ever.

Let's leave this here. Correct it's nostalgia and clearly very emotive for you. But factually simply not true. Your misty-eyed carriage sidings are no longer, but it's quite obviously a more important hub than ever for passengers. Which is the most important thing, not those wistful behind the scenes workings which you are implanting onto the OP's topic.

DarloRich - please also see above. The OP didn't specify all sorts of works (even if the original other thread did lean more towards works at Hellifield) and he was thinking of a passenger perspective, which is what I have argued quite beyond any doubt here. And a shopping centre being there, however unpalatable to those who prefer depot-views, is irrelevant too.

 

[O L Leigh]

Factually incorrect...? I'm staggered!!

I would suggest that the figures for 2011 are skewed due to the amount of construction that was going on at the time together with the opening of the International station. How many construction workers on the Olympic and Westfield sites were travelling up on the train every day?

As for agreeing with the OP, I'm afraid that you are simply buying into his own misapprehensions. With the greatest of respect, he has simply plucked a timeframe out of thin air and then given his impressions of the changes that have happened in that time. He then concedes that he was unaware of the situation having never been there prior to 2007, so how can he say it has developed in the last 20 years? I should also like to point out that he does not state that he is talking specifically about the station in the quote you have helpfully provided. Therefore the matter is open for discussion. We are not opening the topic wider than intended. It is you who is narrowing it down.

If you think we're off-topic, please report to the Mods.

O L Leigh

 

[DarloRich]

DarloRich - please also see above. The OP didn't specify all sorts of works (even if the original other thread did lean more towards works at Hellifield) and he was thinking of a passenger perspective, which is what I have argued quite beyond any doubt here. And a shopping centre being there, however unpalatable to those who prefer depot-views, is irrelevant too.

Cle - you have lost me. Here is the opening post:

The thread regarding rail centres that have fallen from grace makes interesting reading for anyone interested in railway history. It is a shame how some stations have fallen from being locations swamped in grandeur to what can only be described as "shacks", even if many of them necessitated such a change to secure their survival during the infamous Beeching era.

On the other hand though, some stations have successfully done the opposite during recent times. Stratford is an obvious example; whilst it has always been considered a fairly important junction ever since the Central line arrived there, it wasn't until the 1990s that it really took off and became the Clapham Junction of the North and East of London, and as the area and infrastructure develops further the station will become increasingly important - especially once Crossrail arrives in four or five years' time.

Another one that might be considered would be Liverpool South Parkway. Whilst strictly speaking a new station, it was effectively a replacement for two local stations (Allerton and Garston), and has developed exponentially as the nearby airport becomes increasingly busy and more operators stop at South Parkway (helped of course by easy Merseyrail connections to Liverpool Central); these days, virtually everything not operated by Virgin calls there.

So where else is there? Over to you...

I can’t see anything in that that post dealing with the passenger perspective, whether only or in the majority, particularly in relation to Stratford. Furthermore I do not see anything relating to merely keeping the debate on a point that would benefit your ultimately weak argument.

The OP admitted he knew nothing of the history of the area and you seem unwilling to concede that you may have a similar lack of knowledge, that you might be wrong factually or that your understanding of the terminology may be flawed. This is nothing to be ashamed of. At times I learn a great deal from this forum. Perhaps your stance comes from a position of wounded pride.

I would propose that your understanding of the term "rail centre" is incorrect. There is nothing to say that the area of reference should include only the station. You are simply focussing on the station itself rather than the wider area as this helps your argument.

I will admit that as a station Stratford has higher passenger numbers, more frequent passenger trains, different types of service providers and locations served perhaps than ever before. This is due to a number of factors including urban regeneration, gentrification of former “working class areas”, a move to a different way of living, longer distance communing and a general rise in passenger number.

That said, as can be easily seen by merely following a few of the links set out above the area, or "rail centre" if you will, has declined dramatically. That it is a shadow of its former self should be plain to anyone. You are wrong to say otherwise.

 

[Ivo]

That's enough people. Stratford has been done to death.

One cannot deny that it has developed well, at least from a passenger perspective, in recent times. But, as some of you have indicated, it isn't the diverse facility it was in years long past - in fact, it hardly has any such facilities (apart from a Jubilee line depot) at all now.

Where else is there?

 

[steevp]

Hear hear - Ivo sums it up well. Please can we move on guys

 

[lancastrian]

Well my choices are these: Stalybridge, Salford Crescent, Horwich Parkway, Buckshaw Parkway.

 

[johnnychips]

Is Stalybridge much better than say 20 years ago? Gained extra Vic stopper, lost Stockport service.

 

[lancastrian]

Is Stalybridge much better than say 20 years ago? Gained extra Vic stopper, lost Stockport service.

I understand your points, but there are now 5 platforms at Stalybridge with an increased service to both Piccadilly & Victoria to start when the lines are electrified.

Yes I know that the Stockport service has gone, and should be restored in my opinion. But even with that missing service, it has still seen growth as a recent developments.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well my choices are these: Stalybridge, Salford Crescent, Horwich Parkway, Buckshaw Parkway.

Horwich?? As a railway centre that is on the up? I take it your not aware of the now sadly defunct Horwich works that gave much needed skilled employment?

 

[swcovas]

Carmarthen? Certainly more trains than 25 years ago, so much so that they have had to bring a second platform back into use. Hopefully even more once redoubling between Swansea and Llanelli is complete which, incidentally, seems to be progressing well.

 

[lancastrian]

Horwich?? As a railway centre that is on the up? I take it your not aware of the now sadly defunct Horwich works that gave much needed skilled employment?

I am fully aware of the old Horwich Works, as I used to work for BR at Bolton, and had regular contact with the Works at Horwich. After the closure of both the Station at Horwich (1965) and the Works (1983) all that was left was a very run down station at Blackrod, with a limited service.

Now there is a station called Horwich Parkway, which is along side the Bolton Wanderers new ground the Reebok Stadium and the Middlebrook Retail Park. The station has a regular 2tp in each direction through the day and its car park is quite well used.

Although I live in Bolton, it is just as easy to drive to Horwich parkway to catch the train to Manchester, plus the bonus of free parking. So I feel that having gone through quite a decline Horwich is now on the up, and it will continue with the lines electrification.

 

[Manchester77]

I don't know if its already been mentioned but London St Pancras International
went from being under threat of demolition to a dirty old train shed to a spangly international, high speed terminal
also London Marylebone. Modernised under NSE it has continued to have traffic grow with intercity services (Wrexham&Shropshire/Chiltern's Silver Trains)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Although quite an early one, Bristol Parkway's done quite well for itself.

 

[3141]

Tongue in cheek, how about Haddenham and Thame Parkway? The original Haddenham Station closed in 1963. Haddenham and Thame Parkway opened on a different site in 1987. Single line, single platform, one train per hour each way. with one extra train per hour up in the am rush hour and down in the pm.

Track doubled, station reconstructed with two platforms in 1998 (date may be wrong), now two trains per hour each way, two more pass through without stopping, and more trains in peak hours. Station car park extended at least once, now stretches almost halfway to Bicester (maybe a slight exaggeration.

 

[leytongabriel]

Highbury and Islington upstairs (LOL) isn't doing too badly thank you. Time was when 20 people might get on one of the old Broad Street line trains in the rush hour and now look at it.

 

[DarloRich]

That's enough people. Stratford has been done to death.

One cannot deny that it has developed well, at least from a passenger perspective, in recent times. But, as some of you have indicated, it isn't the diverse facility it was in years long past - in fact, it hardly has any such facilities (apart from a Jubilee line depot) at all now.

Where else is there?

who appointed you forum overlord? I will talk about whatever i bloody well like. Especially when i am right.


Stratford has decliined a great deal over the years. The station may, or may not, be busier but the area certainly is not.