Radio silence from the train guard

[northwichcat]

Only on the legacy stock. 195s and 331s have two-way communication call for aids in the door areas (one per pair of doors). 170s and 333s have passenger alarms throughout the train that allow two-way communication with the driver.

So only on around 2/3rd of the Northern fleet then.

Not quite, they allow two-way communication between either the driver or guard with the person who pushed it.

That didn't seem to happen the one occasion when I've heard it activated on a pair of class 150s. Perhaps the guard didn't know what to do in response?

Better to wait till the next station stop before pulling the passcom.

Indeed. But if there's people panicking and no staff around what's the chance of someone pulling what's labelled as an emergency cord?

 

[8J]

I rarely see staff on TPE trains these days, and when I do the ticket is generally not scanned (or looked at).

It's quite different to a few years ago when it was rare not to be checked.

I can't remember when I last had my ticket scanned on TPE; it must be many months ago now (my last journey was Monday this week and I travel fairly regularly)



Indeed; as I am sure you will be aware, a few years ago I took a journey which involved a train operated by a close colleague of yours who I know to be very diligent and was surprised there was no announcements (there was some disruption at the time particularly warranting announcements if I recall correctly, but it was a while back now!) and when I mentioned it, it turns out he had indeed attempted to make announcements and was unaware the system was broken.

The lack of ticket scanning lately is more to do with the industrial action currently being undertaken by RMT and not because guards choose not to.

 

[northwichcat]

The lack of ticket scanning lately is more to do with the industrial action currently being undertaken by RMT and not because guards choose not to.

Please explain. If it's not part of the guard's job role then it's not really industrial action if they are only doing what they are required to do under their contracts. If there's industrial action they are either on strike or not, a strike doesn't allow workers to only do part of their role during hours they work.

 

[yorkie]

The lack of ticket scanning lately is more to do with the industrial action currently being undertaken by RMT and not because guards choose not to.

OK. I had my ticket glanced at but not scanned between York and Leeds. The new Guard from Leeds didn't walk through the train. On the return journey, Manchester to York, again no sign of a Guard.

Many of my previous journeys in the last couple of years have not had a visible staff presence on the train.

In contrast LNER and Northern usually do come through the train.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Please explain. If it's not part of the guard's job role then it's not really industrial action if they are only doing what they are required to do under their contracts. If there's industrial action they are either on strike or not, a strike doesn't allow workers to only do part of their role during hours they work.

I presume this is about the not getting paid to scan tickets like those at other TOCs are. Therefore some guards will deliberately not scan tickets as they feel they should be getting paid to do it

 

[Flying Snail]

On Northern trains there's no help points except in the toilet and wheelchair area and all the help points do is activate a message to call for the guard (who may be in a different portion). If there's an emergency like a passenger needing an ambulance what are you supposed to do if the guard remains hidden? Pull the communication cord and hope the ambulance can get to the middle of nowhere?

It wouldn't really be a RailUK Forums thread if someone didn't conjure up the most OTT edge case they could possibly think of would it?

 

[Watershed]

The lack of ticket scanning lately is more to do with the industrial action currently being undertaken by RMT and not because guards choose not to.

Any such guards are choosing to undertake the industrial action short of a strike (namely, not scanning e-tickets) which the RMT has 'instructed' them to do.

Please explain. If it's not part of the guard's job role then it's not really industrial action if they are only doing what they are required to do under their contracts. If there's industrial action they are either on strike or not, a strike doesn't allow workers to only do part of their role during hours they work.

Industrial action can take the form of a strike, and/or action short of a strike. The mandate and RMT 'instruction' is for both; the strike affects Sundays and Bank Holiday Saturdays, the action short of a strike affects all other days.

Part of the RMT's dispute centres around the fact that the RMT say that scanning e-tickets is not something which conductors are required to undertake under their contracts, whilst obviously the company say it is. In return for agreeing to undertake scanning, the RMT wants a payment per ticket scanned, as per Northern's trial.

 

[johntea]

Yes, on my outward journey from Leeds to Newcastle there was an initial guard from Leeds to Northallerton (I think it was Northallerton they changed anyway) who came down the train for a full, but visual only inspection and then the new guard announced 'I appreciate you've just had your tickets checked by my colleague but I'll be coming down for another inspection' and scanned all tickets

Then there was another guy that jumped on at either Darlington or Durham that looked to be doing some form of revenue but had from memory a sort of blue jumper on although at that point I nipped to the toilet and by the time I returned to my seat he had moved on from my carriage so not quite sure what his role was

On a related note, I was surprised to see the barriers wide open at Newcastle for both my outward and return journey although I think this comes down more to LNER than TPE

 

[NoOnesFool]

The automated announcements are designed to do what the manual announcements of the Senior Conductor (SC) did in the past. The SC only really needs to make announcements if anything out of the ordinary happens, such as if there is a fatality or the train is terminating short unexpectedly. The SC on your journey may have been busy locating/isolating a fault onboard. They may also have been filling out their lodgement sheet after a major incident previously. TransPennine Express managed stations, such as Huddersfield have ticket gates to prevent ticketless travel, and also Revenue Protection Officers boarding trains to prevent it. The SC's primary duty is to dispatch the train safely and work with the driver to ensure the safe running of the train.

 

[northwichcat]

It wouldn't really be a RailUK Forums thread if someone didn't conjure up the most OTT edge case they could possibly think of would it?

On the Northern 150s the call to aids are in the toilet and in the wheelchair area next to the toilet. If there was an emergency in the other carriage, no-one's going to think of checking for one in those places. The guard is behind two set of doors, so knocking on one set won't be heard by the guard. It's not OTT to think someone might pull the chord!

 

[Watershed]

Yes, on my outward journey from Leeds to Newcastle there was an initial guard from Leeds to Northallerton (I think it was Northallerton they changed anyway) who came down the train for a full, but visual only inspection and then the new guard announced 'I appreciate you've just had your tickets checked by my colleague but I'll be coming down for another inspection' and scanned all tickets

Then there was another guy that jumped on at either Darlington or Durham that looked to be doing some form of revenue but had from memory a sort of blue jumper on although at that point I nipped to the toilet and by the time I returned to my seat he had moved on from my carriage so not quite sure what his role was

There wouldn't have been a crew change at Northallerton, there may well have been at York though (possibly in addition to Leeds). The second person you mention was likely a roving member of Revenue Protection staff.

 

[northwichcat]

Part of the RMT's dispute centres around the fact that the RMT say that scanning e-tickets is not something which conductors are required to undertake under their contracts, whilst obviously the company say it is. In return for agreeing to undertake scanning, the RMT wants a payment per ticket scanned, as per Northern's trial.

Possibly something to do with mobile tickets decreasing commission for on board sales?

Did the contract terms change when guards got issued with machines that meant they didn't need to go and get a big manual when someone requested a ticket for an unusual destination?

 

[Falcon1200]

I've found that staff are sometimes more visible on DOO services, eg Scotrail, where an ATE comes through to check tickets, than on trains with Guards, such as SWR (admittedly based on much less experience) where they usually just announce where they are, and if they do deign to walk through the train, certainly don't check tickets. I would have thought that in the interest of self-preservation, if nothing else, Guards would make themselves as visible and useful to passengers as possible.

 

[yorkie]

I've found that staff are sometimes more visible on DOO services, eg Scotrail, where an ATE comes through to check tickets, than on trains with Guards, such as SWR (admittedly based on much less experience) where they usually just announce where they are, and if they do deign to walk through the train, certainly don't check tickets. I would have thought that in the interest of self-preservation, if nothing else,

Very true; the staff presence on Scotrail DOO services is second to none in my experience; I've made journeys where I travelled hundreds of miles with no check and no visible staff presence until I got on the train at Glasgow Central and had a ticket check within a matter of seconds! They are always friendly and efficient in my experience too.

Guards would make themselves as visible and useful to passengers as possible.

You would have thought so, but some want to spend as much time in the back cab as possible, it seems.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Guards would make themselves as visible and useful to passengers as possible.

Most TransPennine Express services have an Onboard Catering Host who can knock on the door to summons the Senior Conductor if a customer has a complaint or query.

 

[northwichcat]

Very true; the staff presence on Scotrail DOO services is second to none in my experience; I've made journeys where I travelled hundreds of miles with no check and no visible staff presence until I got on the train at Glasgow Central and had a ticket check within a matter of seconds! They are always friendly and efficient in my experience too.

I found Sheffield Supertram to be like that, but it's a while since I've travelled on those. The ticket inspector remaining in the passenger area helps him or her see who boarded at the last stop and where they sat/stood after boarding.

 

[bramling]

On Northern trains there's no help points except in the toilet and wheelchair area and all the help points do is activate a message to call for the guard (who may be in a different portion). If there's an emergency like a passenger needing an ambulance what are you supposed to do if the guard remains hidden? Pull the communication cord and hope the ambulance can get to the middle of nowhere?

And yet, round here, we seem to manage, and have managed for three decades or more - even when it was 317s where it really was an emergency cord as opposed to passcom.

There’s certainly benefits in having a guard in terms of door operations being that little bit safer (though this didn’t prevent James Street), and in terms of having an extra resource to take the pressure off the driver in an emergency - note how during the Lewisham debacle the crew operated trains fared better.

So on balance I’m all for having a guard, but do I feel the need for them to act like some kind of playground supervisor by duplicating automated announcements or constantly walking up and down the train? My answer to that has to be no.

 

[northwichcat]

And yet, round here, we seem to manage, and have managed for three decades or more - even when it was 317s where it really was an emergency cord as opposed to passcom.

I've heard stories off my parents about people pulling cords because they missed their station and all it did was delay how long it took to reach the next station.

I'm guessing in the present day people are scared of the fine for improper use. I've seen people miss their station due to door faults and they've not attempted to use them.

 

[skyhigh]

On the Northern 150s the call to aids are in the toilet and in the wheelchair area next to the toilet. If there was an emergency in the other carriage, no-one's going to think of checking for one in those places. The guard is behind two set of doors, so knocking on one set won't be heard by the guard. It's not OTT to think someone might pull the chord!

If you're on a 150 and there is what you would consider to be an emergency, pull an alarm handle (passcom). The train will not move until it can be reset, but it can be reset relatively quickly so the train will never be 'stuck in the middle of nowhere'. I suggest that is what the vast majority of passengers would do. You also overestimate the sound proofing of a 150 cab! If someone bangs loudly on a 150 vestibule door it can easily be heard in the cab (not to mention the vestibule door is never locked on a 150/2)

 

[bramling]

I've heard stories off my parents about people pulling cords because they missed their station and all it did was delay how long it took to reach the next station.

I'm guessing in the present day people are scared of the fine for improper use. I've seen people miss their station due to door faults and they've not attempted to use them.

I don’t doubt it happens, but in three decades of DOO use on GN, at one point near daily, I can think of two passenger alarms. Once on 2x317 at New Barnet due to a person who had fainted, and once on 1x317 at Knebworth by football hooligans. Both were in platforms as it happened.

On new trains there’s the passcom system, so less of an issue still.

 

[Watershed]

Possibly something to do with mobile tickets decreasing commission for on board sales?

Yes, that's one of the factors behind the dispute. The decrease in on board ticket sales has lead to a reduction in commission. The RMT is looking for a way to make this up. Obviously the fact that Northern pay a small amount, and that a payment was in the proposed deal (that was rejected) just before Covid, does not assist the company's position in holding firm.

Did the contract terms change when guards got issued with machines that meant they didn't need to go and get a big manual when someone requested a ticket for an unusual destination?

No.

Most TransPennine Express services have an Onboard Catering Host who can knock on the door to summons the Senior Conductor if a customer has a complaint or query.

Hosts are only provided over certain parts of the network (e.g. never between Sheffield and Cleethorpes or Leeds and Hull) and in any case are only rostered at certain times of day. Plus on a double 185 they will usually be in the front set whilst the conductor is in the rear set.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yes, on my outward journey from Leeds to Newcastle there was an initial guard from Leeds to Northallerton (I think it was Northallerton they changed anyway) who came down the train for a full, but visual only inspection and then the new guard announced 'I appreciate you've just had your tickets checked by my colleague but I'll be coming down for another inspection' and scanned all tickets

We dont have crew changes at Northallerton

Then there was another guy that jumped on at either Darlington or Durham that looked to be doing some form of revenue but had from memory a sort of blue jumper on although at that point I nipped to the toilet and by the time I returned to my seat he had moved on from my carriage so not quite sure what his role was

Sounds like one of the revenue protection staff joined the service and took over the revenue check, probably @AnonMouse by your description

On a related note, I was surprised to see the barriers wide open at Newcastle for both my outward and return journey although I think this comes down more to LNER than TPE

Barriers are staffed by LNER and quite frankly as long as management see then as a customer service invonvenience (much to the chargrinbof the staff who actually work them) then the barrier provision will always be hit and miss

 

[Towers]

Most TransPennine Express services have an Onboard Catering Host who can knock on the door to summons the Senior Conductor if a customer has a complaint or query.

However, guards absolutely should not be routinely relying upon another crew member to 'knock on the door'; they should be out amongst the passengers and managing their train as per the job description!

Of course, there will always be those times when the guard happens to be away from the passengers for a few minutes and something happens, in which case that knock on the door is always handy, but it shouldn't be a default method of working!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As someone who was once employed as a guard, I find the readiness to jump to the defence of someone who isn't performing their duties correctly quite appalling. There's a slim chance there was a genuine reason, but in all probability, this member of staff was either being lazy or simply indifferent. This sort of behaviour and to normalise this sort of behaviour undermines the whole grade and is simply a walking advert for implementing DOO. It's particularly ironic, after so much industrial action has taken place to defend the grade. Conductors/guards, now more than ever, should be busy looking after the customer, proving their worth and making it clear that a guard adds substantial value over DOO - not hiding in the back and letting the customers practice for DOO.

Im not jumping to the defence of this individual. I am fully aware there are staff members who sit in the back cab and do nothing and names spring to mind. At the same time without evidence I am not going to assume the individual on that train was one of those lazy individuals. I offered a lost of suggestions as to what could be the case because I am not going to trial and judge and assume anything. That wouldn't be fair

In my case yesterday between York and Newcastle I attempted to do a full ticket check. Tickets were looked at but as per the current RMT dispute werent scanned. Thus takes longer as I have to visually check the reservation and railcard details and ensure multiple tickets have different serial numbers whereas scanning brings these up automatically and only the railcard needs to he verified. However by Darlington I had done only 3 of the 5 carriages and the position of the catering trolley which was carrying out a brisk trade prevented me from accessing the next carriage. Dealing with some issues with toilets especially the PITA the master and slave toilets are preventing me doing any further checks between darlington and durham so those front two carriages didnt see me. Does that mean I wasnt doing my job? Maybe in the eyes of someone in that carriage but 3 other carriages did see me working, hence why I wont be jumping to conclusions. However the difference here, I did make announcements, in some cases over riding the auto announcements so they didnt repeat what i had said

 

[Towers]

Im not jumping to the defence of this individual. I am fully aware there are staff members who sit in the back cab and do nothing and names spring to mind. At the same time without evidence I am not going to assume the individual on that train was one of those lazy individuals. I offered a lost of suggestions as to what could be the case because I am not going to trial and judge and assume anything. That wouldn't be fair

In my case yesterday between York and Newcastle I attempted to do a full ticket check. Tickets were looked at but as per the current RMT dispute werent scanned. Thus takes longer as I have to visually check the reservation and railcard details and ensure multiple tickets have different serial numbers whereas scanning brings these up automatically and only the railcard needs to he verified. However by Darlington I had done only 3 of the 5 carriages and the position of the catering trolley which was carrying out a brisk trade prevented me from accessing the next carriage. Dealing with some issues with toilets especially the PITA the master and slave toilets are preventing me doing any further checks between darlington and durham so those front two carriages didnt see me. Does that mean I wasnt doing my job? Maybe in the eyes of someone in that carriage but 3 other carriages did see me working, hence why I wont be jumping to conclusions. However the difference here, I did make announcements, in some cases over riding the auto announcements so they didnt repeat what i had said

Start at the front

On a serious note though, some good points here. And trolleys, goodness yes! Aren't they always in the wrong place at the wrong time!

 

[bramling]

Im not jumping to the defence of this individual. I am fully aware there are staff members who sit in the back cab and do nothing and names spring to mind. At the same time without evidence I am not going to assume the individual on that train was one of those lazy individuals. I offered a lost of suggestions as to what could be the case because I am not going to trial and judge and assume anything. That wouldn't be fair

In my case yesterday between York and Newcastle I attempted to do a full ticket check. Tickets were looked at but as per the current RMT dispute werent scanned. Thus takes longer as I have to visually check the reservation and railcard details and ensure multiple tickets have different serial numbers whereas scanning brings these up automatically and only the railcard needs to he verified. However by Darlington I had done only 3 of the 5 carriages and the position of the catering trolley which was carrying out a brisk trade prevented me from accessing the next carriage. Dealing with some issues with toilets especially the PITA the master and slave toilets are preventing me doing any further checks between darlington and durham so those front two carriages didnt see me. Does that mean I wasnt doing my job? Maybe in the eyes of someone in that carriage but 3 other carriages did see me working, hence why I wont be jumping to conclusions. However the difference here, I did make announcements, in some cases over riding the auto announcements so they didnt repeat what i had said

I don’t really see why anyone would have a problem with leaving announcements to the auto announcer for a routine journey.

People like Julie Berry are paid well for doing announcements precisely because they have a good voice and manner for it, and of course their announcements are provided in text form too for the benefit of those who can’t hear them. I don’t really get why anyone would want to duplicate or replace them (apart from that some people do like the sound of their own voice!).

I know it’s sometimes easier to pick up the handset rather than mess about working out how to play a particular pre-recorded message, but apart from that I’ve always taken the view that manual announcements should be for out-of-course situations only. The worst is where guards reel off massive amounts of routine script (Northern were certainly doing this, and presumably still do?), completely unnecessary, and simply results in people tuning out, which then causes a problem when there’s something important to be heard.

 

[Fokx]

I rarely see staff on TPE trains these days, and when I do the ticket is generally not scanned (or looked at).

It's quite different to a few years ago when it was rare not to be checked.

You won’t have your ticket scanned as the Conductor grade are in dispute over it. Revenue teams will scan all tickets and the occasional guard, but all RMT staff are to not scan tickets until a productivity deal comes to some form of fruition

 

[ComUtoR]

Is there a requirement for the Guard to make an announcement ? Is it in their terms and conditions or company policy ? Is there a Rule book instruction ?

 

[Fokx]

Is there a requirement for the Guard to make an announcement ? Is it in their terms and conditions or company policy ? Is there a Rule book instruction ?

No.
No but it’s advisory when the technology fails or there’s disruption.
And no.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thank you.